mini normal 2226; who won

[MathBlade]

also, uh, you talk about "good scum wouldn't do that", and maybe (maybe!) that's true, but i haven't seen proof that either flubber or meg are exceptionally good at scum (no offense, i'm shit at scum too). so i don't see how that invalidates what i said?

and besides, literally all i said was "if the two leading wagons aren't voting each other, they're more likely to both be scum", why is this suddenly someting that "decent scum" doesn't do?

My point is that there’s no difference between bad scum and bad town for that tell.
You specifically mentioned the wagons acting awkwardly towards each other as part of the tell and not speaking about each other as well. That is not “all you said”. For something to be a “scum tell” it has to be accurate a good chunk of the time. At best that’s a “you should look here and see if that’s the case”. When something doesn’t differentiate between newb scum vs newb town, you’ve found a newbie, congrats?

Having been scum a lot, I tend to ask myself if a player is scum why would they do something. What benefit do they get long term? Flubber iirc is good scum (I don’t have time to find a game sorry) so I don’t see a naked vote on Meg as something Flubber does.

I guess just call it “player who gets scum all the time intuition”. I know it’s probably not satisfying but it’s the best I got as I will have to get ready for work soon.

[MegAzumarill]

okay so - re meg's 601

do you think alchemist is doing that in a scummy or townie way? why?

the explanation for aristeia feels off. you say how aristeia doesn't want to steer conversation in any given direction. then you note how scum *can* steer convos in a game, but then they would appear to have an agenda, and aristeia doesn't seem to have an agenda so she's town - but you just said that she's not steering the conversation? where would you expect that "agenda" to show up then?

*why* does my play come across as townie? like, what's making you sure that i'm town genuinely running around as opposed to scum looking to push through misyeets? especially considering you're currently my main target?

the luke/omega fight seems like a playstyle clash when you describe it that way, sure. but scum has a playstyle as well. so again, why is this t/t?

I'm going to respond to the alchemist and aristelia questions at the same time, because I think it gives a good example for the latter. Alchemist for a good portion of the game has been directing the conversation (i.e. Why do you think that, what do you think about x?) and not contributing a huge amount of their own reads (some scattered about though). But Ari has been contributing their own reads and thoughts into the game while making no effort to control the flow of the conversation at all. I don't think scum does that as it is almost impossible to distinguish it coming from a scum or a town. Likewise its why I nullread Alch, because I easily see a townie acting the way he is or a scum doing the same. I would suggest looking into the slot further.

As for you it seems evident that other people don't seem to find that kind of aggression a particular townie trait, but I definitely do, especially coming from an experienced player like yourself. If you are scum you would know I'd flip green and how that would look so I don't think you'd go like that at a town on day 1. It just feels unlikely to me. If other people think differently, I'd guess I'll have to chalk it up to agree to disagree on whether it is scummy/NAI/towny.

I think the Chaos/Luke is T/T because I don't really see anything coming off as scummy, and after rereading their interactions back and forth, Chaos response (which I am aware he got push for) felt more like a legitimate response from a town.

Also, I'm thinking Mathblade is falling more into my scumread territory, I will get to my reasons for that in a moment.

[Prism]

I don't see how your play from games where you are town would serve as a counterfactual for what I'm saying about scum!you's play in a game state where your scum partner is in imminent danger.

A proper counter-example would be scum!you replacing into a game where a partner is about to get eliminated on d1 with hammer intent already on the table and your slot having voted the player in question in an awkward way.

That's a fairly narrow condition set so I kind of doubt you would have a relevant example to cite.

I don't expect you to come up with a counter example, it would be unfair of me to put that burden on you.

I am simply laying out the relevant reasons for scum!you not to do a re-read but be forced to immediately enter thread and fight. I am doing this to counter your self!meta that scum!you would not come in cold.

I recognize why you're pressing this, both to try and pressure me and to counter the fear of thread control. I would consider that both pressure/thread control are priorities for me as town, too, especially in a world where Datisi doesn't look good at a glance. I would really, really like to drop this and read the thread in the meantime. I've restrained myself & will continue to do so but some of my drafts were uncomfortably vicious. If I'm right and Meg is town we can debate that/a proposed counter without you giving thread to me entirely, or if I think I'm wrong we can just flip them.

I have a meeting in 20 so it'll likely take time and I honestly need a bit to cool off regardless.

[MathBlade]

intent to haer meg

Can you for fuck’s sake stop threatening hammer or E-1 when I am trying to sort people? It’s pissing me off.

I have to head out for work now but just *glares*

[Prism]

And to be clear, since you're so familiar with my meta: I don't like to be a dictator or have the game completely revolve around me, but I absolutely do not like sitting by idly in any scenario.

[Datisi]

Question was about Meg, which I wanted you to rehash to me specifically even though at this point I've kind of shown my hand.

er, i still don't understand what it is that you were asking? unless it was "why is meg being wagoned" which i feel like it has been explained, but my own specific reasons have been laid out in the first two paragraphs of 463

[Datisi]

also, uh, you talk about "good scum wouldn't do that", and maybe (maybe!) that's true, but i haven't seen proof that either flubber or meg are exceptionally good at scum (no offense, i'm shit at scum too). so i don't see how that invalidates what i said?

and besides, literally all i said was "if the two leading wagons aren't voting each other, they're more likely to both be scum", why is this suddenly someting that "decent scum" doesn't do?

My point is that there’s no difference between bad scum and bad town for that tell.
You specifically mentioned the wagons acting awkwardly towards each other as part of the tell and not speaking about each other as well. That is not “all you said”. For something to be a “scum tell” it has to be accurate a good chunk of the time. At best that’s a “you should look here and see if that’s the case”. When something doesn’t differentiate between newb scum vs newb town, you’ve found a newbie, congrats?

Having been scum a lot, I tend to ask myself if a player is scum why would they do something. What benefit do they get long term? Flubber iirc is good scum (I don’t have time to find a game sorry) so I don’t see a naked vote on Meg as something Flubber does.

I guess just call it “player who gets scum all the time intuition”. I know it’s probably not satisfying but it’s the best I got as I will have to get ready for work soon.

ye, but the crux of it is "not voting each other" (that is what i mean by saying "avoiding each other like the plague", if i need to back this up i will because i use that phrasing to mean "avoiding one another's wagon" constantly)

the rest (being awkward, not talking to eachother) can happen but doesn't necessarily, and it's non-specific reading of s/s interactions anyway. i added it because flubber *did* vote meg so you could easily go "but flubber did vote meg therefore u r rong" when that doesn't invalidate the fact that he tried really hard not to vote meg.

[MegAzumarill]

Spoiler: Sentences in player list order

(There are other reasons and I'm practically falling asleep as I'm writing this but I'm putting the reasons I think are safest for us)
T3 => Annoying, but probably town. I wish he'd quit being antitown, but probably town. Has some instances that separate him from Aristeia where he shows he's analyzing the game.
MegAzumarill => Scum lean. Her posting seems very surface level. She should be able to explain them more. Even her responses don't reference things in thread. They reference what she does as scum for one of them. In her developed response to Datisi she says "Your locking on to something and trying to pressure that person until you are convinced they are town ends up seeming towny. You give off the energy of trying to spot scum, and when you think you have, you don't let up until you either are convinced otherwise or find another person to pressure, and while I don't doubt it can be very effective, it does seem awfully prone to causing mislims. "

This is something you say to a scumread not a town one. But she says in a prior post
"tends to latch onto one thing about a player that they find suspicious and stick by it for long stretches, townread, "

I find this more common with scum than town so they don't have to vote. A good example of me doing this was the Calculasia game mentioned several times. "There has to be a scum in (big list of PRs claims)" but there wasn't. I used the fact the setup was completely townsided to my advantage. The only reason she's not as high up as someone like Chaos as she doesn't seem to have any defenders. This means it's very much either a newbie scum team (which in that case not to worry) or scum are very disconnected right now.

I also think if Meg is scum it's probably with Aristeia.

Overall I think if Meg is town then scum have control of the gamestate somewhere and I'd look for someone manipulating the game. With no champion for the Flubber/Prism wagon then to me its dead because if it's a scum bus then scum would want the credit and if it's led by a town player then if they thought Flubber would flip scum they'd go "Hell ya I'm the champion here's why Flubber flips scum". The only other person this could be is Umlaut at this point and there will be plenty of other ways to test him. The fact no one seems to vouch for the Flubber wagon hardly at all, means that Prism is probably town. I'm kinda at the point some fuckery is happening but I'm not sure where so I wanna flip some people to find it.

(Quote edited to only include parts involving me for relevancy)

The main infraction here is the fact that he goes after me for having reads at a very surface level, yet they don't ask for elaboration on any of the points I made. They don't seem interested in what I have to say and immediately right it off as essentially meaningless without asking to go in depth. I mean I'm aware that people are going to right off some of my reads as bad, but they hadn't made an effort to try to understand where I am coming from. It feels like scum that doesn't want me to add more because they are happy with the dynamics right now

[Aristeia]

I know you don't like to be town dictator

that is one of the reasons I think you are scum here.

I am busy as well


this thread doesnt need to be me vs you for another 5 pages.

[Vulture]

What a cluster.

[Umlaut]

Ugh I need to play this game but now that I'm so far behind it's hard to get myself to do it

I like MathBlade's very active and engaged entry to the game but haven't really thought in detail about

what

he's saying

[T3]

intent to haer meg

Can you for fuck’s sake stop threatening hammer or E-1 when I am trying to sort people? It’s pissing me off.

I have to head out for work now but just *glares*

unintent

[Umlaut]

Maybe I'll just ignore the past and focus on whatever's going on in the last few pages.

[Datisi]

But Ari has been contributing their own reads and thoughts into the game while making no effort to control the flow of the conversation at all. I don't think scum does that as it is almost impossible to distinguish it coming from a scum or a town.

not sure i fully get this part. like, why is that unlikely to come from scum because of that reason?

If you are scum you would know I'd flip green and how that would look so I don't think you'd go like that at a town on day 1.

ahaha, yeah, about that...

though this is more me-specific meta that i know you don't have, so i guess i can buy this as a plausible thought process?

[Umlaut]

MathBlade is Seanzie, who is Prism?

[Datisi]

well well well, would you look at that

i say that umlaut is scummy if these two people are town because he's being lazy

umlaut appears from the void

pedit: prism is flubber

[Umlaut]

Thanks for the info (and the annoying shade)

[Umlaut]

UNVOTE:

At least until I've caught up a bit

[Datisi]

anytime bb

[MegAzumarill]

Datisis, because doing it (controlling the conversation) has a large amount of benefits for scum (and town.) It also doesn't have many downsides for scum, so forgoing it would almost be a waste as scum. Although I will concede that I think scum are probably happy with the way the discussion is going right now, so it doesn't hold as much weight to me in this circumstance

I mean Datisis, you actually seem interested in having me share my reasonings, so that adds to the townread as well (I'd not like to get into it right now, there's more important things to discuss)

[T3]

I have no communism what to make for Ari.

[T3]

My autocorrect is cracked.

[Prism]

I might be setting the bar too low for Aristeia town but either way it's time to do something else.

Going to try reading ISOs working Meg -> Datisi -> probably Chaos unless I strike something in the meantime? I might swap to cover-to-cover but I really don't want to.

[Alchemist21]

I think the Chaos/Luke is T/T because I don't really see anything coming off as scummy, and after rereading their interactions back and forth, Chaos response (which I am aware he got push for) felt more like a legitimate response from a town.

Can you elaborate on why you think Chaos’ response looked Towny? I thought Chaos looked pretty scummy in that back and forth.

[Prism]

Meg:

I feel the drama with flubber is being taken pretty harshly to what resulted from mostly RVS discussion.

VOTE: Titus

Titus is my RVS vote, I don't think they have done much either way yet. I don't see a reason to change it until I SR someone else.

Titus: doesn’t seem super concerned with exactly who is limmed, which seems townie (as I suspect there are 1 or more scum outside of their townblock) but doesn’t seem to provide a good flow of logic into the game, slight townread

Can you discuss more explicitly how you arrived at this initial vote given your later townlean? You're saying RVS but I want to know what the thought process was, if there was one.