Kerset's Large Normal Review, August 2021

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Subject: Normal Queue Thread (Players and Mods)

/in to mod large

Cop
N1 Combined FriendlyNeighbor Neighborizer Cop
N2N3 Commuter
Ascetic Vengeful Townie
1-shot Babysitter Town Neighbor
7* VT

Cop-Finder
1-shot Loud Visitor
Mafia Neighbor
Informed Mafia (There are 5 town active power roles)

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Primary: Isis
Secondary: Gypyx

Sorry this took so long to get going!

[Isis]

Oh I shouldn't have opened this yet. Gypyx post something so this gets marked unread

[Gypyx]

wooo woo woo it's 2 in the morning and idk why i'm checking MS

[Isis]

I think the smell test says this amount of town and mafia power is balanced, but vengeful ascetic feels like a troll with this setup of roles. Using the day's elimination to kill someone who the nightplay confirmed is resistant to nightplay effects shouldn't be punished.

Splitting the role is probably fine? Since both are passive it wouldn't impact the tally for the informed. There's other stuff you could do also.

[Gypyx]

hmmmm, i kinda think the setup has a bit too much "random stuff" personally? Like, tell me if i'm wrong, but the "Vengeful" "1-shot Babysitter" or the neighborhood don't serve a crucial part in the setup?

heck, i'd say vengeful is even less effective than normal with the maf's information, like, they know that something is unclaimed in Lylo / MeLo

[Kerset]

There are two hyper powerful PR. It would be tough to play it without any protective role, especially with modern D1 claiming. On one hand ungated cop can be saved from death, on other hand there is neighbor, which might sabotage it, if it gains babysitter trust.

Vengeful is indeed just a filler. It was the best thing that crossed my mind. I guess ascetic could be moved elsewhere, i don't mind it.

[Isis]

Gypyx, "random" roles are like.. good. Roles that are more arbitrary are harder to guess in setup spec and allow the game's play to more frequently bend towards which players in the rand turn out to be successful in the dayplay rather than which players land the protagonist or antagonist roles of more scripted setups. I've consistently seen player feedback be more likely to be negative the stronger a designer was committed to a setup having a specific conceit and there's reasons that makes sense.

[Isis]

I would pass this with the ascetic vengeful split and no other changes. Idk if you want to do something else instead

[Gypyx]

Gypyx, "random" roles are like.. good. Roles that are more arbitrary are harder to guess in setup spec and allow the game's play to more frequently bend towards which players in the rand turn out to be successful in the dayplay rather than which players land the protagonist or antagonist roles of more scripted setups. I've consistently seen player feedback be more likely to be negative the stronger a designer was committed to a setup having a specific conceit and there's reasons that makes sense.

alright fair, i thought normals were actually supposed to not have a lot of moving parts, without being extremely straightfoward of course

plus the reasons make sens actually so ye i'm okay with keeping things that way

the thing tho, is that like, if we reach MeLo with the venge unclaimed, scum knows that there's an unclaimed role in that mix, and can reasonably guess it's a vengeful because really what role other than venge doesn't claim in that situation, so they can basically neutralize it by acting smart

which i though was bad but actually i'm supposed to think about balance so it's good probably?

[Isis]

Oh I misunderstood the informed ability. I thought "active town power roles" excluded roles that do not act at night. Maybe change the setup to the way I misread it to fix that issue? Lol

[Kerset]

I followed wiki description.

An Active Role is one that must choose whether to use their role-related ability, and/or who to use their ability on. Most power roles are active in nature; some examples include Cop, Doctor, and Mafia Goon.

Maybe i shall add wiki link to PM?

Fun fact is that i decided to add this informed role after i saw your post Isis. You said somewhere that game are more fun for mafia when they get some intel about town roles and you for instance decided to spoil entire setup to mafia.

[Gypyx]

can't go wrong with adding wiki stuff yeah, active can also be reasonably mixed up with non-passive as Isis did

yeah btw, about the informed, i feel like it's a bit too weak to really weigh in that sorta "inform scum about this town to give them agency" stuff

like, picture this, you're scum, but know there are 5 active PRs, what does that mean, can you do anything with that ? Probably not, Maybe refine a bit the loud visitor's fake claim but that's it really

[Isis]

You are right and I am wrong! Mtg had influenced me, in that game's mechanics vengeful wouldn't be an "activated ability" it'd be a "triggered ability". Mtg has so much overlap with mafia playerbase that Ascetic role comes directly from mtg so I don't feel self centered mentioning that personal influence. Does not make me correct though, that wiki blurb is clear.

I would include the wiki blurb, yes, other people besides me could get confused.

I think I dont mind if the mafia figure out there's a vengeful.

[Kerset]

like, picture this, you're scum, but know there are 5 active PRs, what does that mean, can you do anything with that ? Probably not, Maybe refine a bit the loud visitor's fake claim but that's it really

In mid-game, you know how many more PR are hidden.

[Gypyx]

like, picture this, you're scum, but know there are 5 active PRs, what does that mean, can you do anything with that ? Probably not, Maybe refine a bit the loud visitor's fake claim but that's it really

In mid-game, you know how many more PR are hidden.

fair, it's still pretty weak imo, but if that's what you wanna roll with go ahead

[Isis]

The vanilla townie is pretty weak too? I don't get it.

[Gypyx]

The vanilla townie is pretty weak too? I don't get it.

you know what i mean by that >.>

[Isis]

I do not

[Isis]

I don't know if you think scum needs more power in the aggregate or if there is something misleading or what

It is a queue that has fruit vendors "this isn't a high impact power role" needs some kind of explanation as a criticism

[Gypyx]

well, it isn't a criticism of the setup, which is probably in a good place with the suggested changes, more like "yo, i'm not sure the effect is what you were aiming for"

[Isis]

I think she probably knew

[Kerset]

Spoiler: VT

Welcome x! You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

You have no active ability.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Cop

Welcome x! You are a

Town Cop

.

You have the following active ability:
Each Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether that player wins with Town.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: N1 Combined FriendlyNeighbor Neighborizer Cop

Welcome x! You are a

Town N1 Combined FriendlyNeighbor Neighborizer Cop

.

You have the following active ability:
During Night 1, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will receive a message from the moderator that states that you are Town, additionally you will learn whether that player wins with Town, also private thread will be created for two of you, you may talk with each other at all time.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: N2N3 Commuter

Welcome x! You are a

Town N2N3 Commuter

.

You have the following active ability:
During Night 2 and Night 3, you may decide to commute. During commute you will be untargetable by any means.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Ascetic Townie

Welcome x! You are a

Ascetic Townie

.

Actions that target you, other than kills, will fail as if roleblocked.

You have no active abilities.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Vengeful Townie

Welcome x! You are a

Vengeful Townie

.

You have the following active ability:
When you are eliminated, you may target another player in the game to attempt to kill them.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: 1-shot Babysitter Town Neighbor

Welcome x! You are a

1-shot Babysitter Town Neighbor

.
You and z share a neighborhood. You may talk to them here at all time.

You have the following active ability:
Once in the game at Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will be protected from one direct kill, but will die if you are killed.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Cop-Finder

Welcome to game! You are a

Mafia Cop-Finder

.
Your team-mates are x y z. You may talk to them here at all time.

You have the following active abilities:

Each night, if no other member of your faction is performing this action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.
Each Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether that player is Cop.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: 1-shot Loud Visitor

Welcome to game! You are a

Mafia 1-shot Loud Visitor

.
Your team-mates are x y z. You may talk to them here at all time.

You have the following active abilities:

Each night, if no other member of your faction is performing this action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.
Once per Game during Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, your target will be notified that you visited them.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Mafia Neighbor

Welcome to game! You are a

Mafia Neighbor

.
Your team-mates are x y z. You may talk to them here at all time.
You and w share a neighborhood. You may talk to them here at all time.

You have the following active ability:

Each night, if no other member of your faction is performing this action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: Informed Mafia

Welcome to game! You are a

Informed Mafia

.
Your team-mates are x y z. You may talk to them here at all time.

You are informed that in this game there are exactly 5 town active power roles.

You have the following active ability:

Each night, if no other member of your faction is performing this action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, that player will die.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Your target wins with Town

Your target doesn't win with Town

Your target is Cop

Your target is not Cop

Kerset is member of town

Kerset visited you last night

[Gypyx]

Ascetic isn't accurate as they don't fail as if roleblocked, as the targeting player is still considered as targeting you

stating that the informed's info is redacted upon flip can't go wrong also

[Kerset]

That's odd. I copypasted it from https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... e_Role_PMs