Newbie 2071: The Sandwich Debate - End!

[HockeyFan]

GG

gg looker

[cowsloveSushirolls]

man, what a tense game
i think the worst part of eventually knowing that looker was scum in dead chat was that it meant that rocky was also scum. i couldn't stomach that because they were a pretty large townread, not to mention that i already felt good about looker, lol

i hope to see you guys around the site! i think that this was a very good introductory game, except maybe for the large amount of replacements

[HockeyFan]

well that was a game of some kind

if any of the newbies who were in the game are still paying attention and want feedback,

How do you not get condemmed . Moreso, how do radiate town/towncase yourself

feel free to ask. not even sure how many of them stuck around given the unfortunate number of replace outs

So everything you did day 1 was so fucking town. It radiated it and I was never more confident.

The issue was, coming into day 2, your interactions with T3 about Looker specifically, and the instant Looker vote and the reason you gave for it were insinspiring.

If you'd said "Looker is scummy and I want more pressure here today" I'd have vibed.

But you said it so passively. "I'm not sure if he's scum but I wanna see more".

It made it look like a scum semi push.

yea makes sense. The problem is, i wasnt ready to start hard pushing Looker there cuz he had like 3-4 posts.

[HockeyFan]

man, what a tense game
i think the worst part of eventually knowing that looker was scum in dead chat was that it meant that rocky was also scum. i couldn't stomach that because they were a pretty large townread, not to mention that i already felt good about looker, lol

i hope to see you guys around the site! i think that this was a very good introductory game, except maybe for the large amount of replacements

gone :^). gg cows, u played well

[cowsloveSushirolls]

if any of the newbies who were in the game are still paying attention and want feedback, feel free to ask. not even sure how many of them stuck around given the unfortunate number of replace outs

what are some ways to prevent a rushed d1 elim? i wanted to see if i could prevent it with something like 479, but not much came out of it

[Lady Lambdadelta]

well that was a game of some kind

if any of the newbies who were in the game are still paying attention and want feedback,

How do you not get condemmed . Moreso, how do radiate town/towncase yourself

feel free to ask. not even sure how many of them stuck around given the unfortunate number of replace outs

So everything you did day 1 was so fucking town. It radiated it and I was never more confident.

The issue was, coming into day 2, your interactions with T3 about Looker specifically, and the instant Looker vote and the reason you gave for it were insinspiring.

If you'd said "Looker is scummy and I want more pressure here today" I'd have vibed.

But you said it so passively. "I'm not sure if he's scum but I wanna see more".

It made it look like a scum semi push.

yea makes sense. The problem is, i wasnt ready to start hard pushing Looker there cuz he had like 3-4 posts.

So lie. Fake it. Act more confident that you really are.

Sometimes it doesn't matter what your actual intentions are, just that you sell it to the town better.

I'm being serious here. Deadly serious. If you come out acting way more confident about it and lead it a bit more? You probably come out town.

[HockeyFan]

well that was a game of some kind

if any of the newbies who were in the game are still paying attention and want feedback,

How do you not get condemmed . Moreso, how do radiate town/towncase yourself

feel free to ask. not even sure how many of them stuck around given the unfortunate number of replace outs

So everything you did day 1 was so fucking town. It radiated it and I was never more confident.

The issue was, coming into day 2, your interactions with T3 about Looker specifically, and the instant Looker vote and the reason you gave for it were insinspiring.

If you'd said "Looker is scummy and I want more pressure here today" I'd have vibed.

But you said it so passively. "I'm not sure if he's scum but I wanna see more".

It made it look like a scum semi push.

yea makes sense. The problem is, i wasnt ready to start hard pushing Looker there cuz he had like 3-4 posts.

So lie. Fake it. Act more confident that you really are.

Sometimes it doesn't matter what your actual intentions are, just that you sell it to the town better.

I'm being serious here. Deadly serious. If you come out acting way more confident about it and lead it a bit more? You probably come out town.

Yea, I need to learn to be more confident lol. I dont trust my own reads much which is a problem

[petapan]

well that was a game of some kind

if any of the newbies who were in the game are still paying attention and want feedback,

How do you not get condemmed . Moreso, how do radiate town/towncase yourself

feel free to ask. not even sure how many of them stuck around given the unfortunate number of replace outs

like, a big part of me voting you was me incorrectly associating you with T3 based on your read of him. sometimes that happens. there's not necessarily a lot you could do about that, it was just an odd coincidence that your read of him was weird. but you couldn't have known he was scum at the time. i think it was something of a logical error to scumread T3, but also scumread VFP for tunneling T3, you know? because if he's tunneling your scumread then that shouldn't be scummy in and of itself.


i thought your response to being pressured by grandpamo was scummy, but i don't know if that's just my own personal bias, you know? your read on him seemed to go back and forth a lot, where he was scummy but then you thought you were TvT but when he became a potential wagon you were suddenly okay with voting him. in hindsight that kind of read shifting is maybe more likely to come from town than scum because it shows you're constantly thinking about the game and changing your mind, i just didn't see it that way at the time.


like i said, i think you getting eliminated here was a

me

problem, not a you problem. the only advice i could really give is if your townread is pushing on you, just keep trying to explain yourself. the only way you get better at that is practice.

[petapan]

LLD is also broadly correct in that projecting confidence in games, as either alignment, is the best way to convince people not to vote you

[fferyllt]

Yes - they're all sandwiches

A structure and ingredient rebel!

[petapan]

if any of the newbies who were in the game are still paying attention and want feedback, feel free to ask. not even sure how many of them stuck around given the unfortunate number of replace outs

what are some ways to prevent a rushed d1 elim? i wanted to see if i could prevent it with something like 479, but not much came out of it

i don't have an idea of the timeline. you all had to rush things because of the deadline, right?

i think for starters, unvoting there was a mistake. rather than trying to talk things over diplomatically, you need to start pushing for people to consolidate on a wagon and get someone run up early before the clock starts to run out. if there are people who are sitting on single votes or not voting at all, talk to them specifically and encourage them to join a wagon

[HockeyFan]

Okay thanks LLD/Peta for the advice. Also ggs(again) to everyone who played the game. My first town win pog

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Hello. It is I, a watcher from the shadows

@LLD

Can you talk about what led you to making this play?

Spoiler:

Today is the day for a mass claim, btw. We're in a 5:2 situation, and we have 2 confirmed townies we can create, with a possible better outcome depending on roles.

So we need to organize a popcorn claiming list. We pick the scummiest person, and then make them claim, then, they tell someone else to claim, and we go down the list. This way, it makes counter claims a little harder to fake too.

I also think, for the immediate moment in the claim order, you shouldn't claim your ROLE, just whether you are a Vanilla Townie or a Power Role.

If we have any counter claiming, we can use that to try and catch people, but if we don't, we don't reveal what power is where to the scum.

Anyone disagree with this?

Never seen something like that suggested day 2 of a newbie game, and was the reason I started spectating this game lol

So, let's start with the non mechanical reasons.

We'd just flipped a townie, and the game was at risk of hitting apathy. Forcing a mass claim creates new info and makes people have to chew on it and make decisions. I felt that using the mass claim timing here would provide town +EV if done like this.

Now, mechanical stuff: Popcorn because it prevents scum from being able to do weird fake claim stuff, and only claiming "power role or no" because of the same.

The way this setup is built creates the possibility for duplication errors. In that a cop is fine, ubt there's no guarantee the jailkeeper that claims is real or not, because the cop can't know the setup. It could be a real jailkeeper, or it could be mafia making the guess from that position.

Having popcorn'd order makes it harder to plan the timing of a fake claim, and having hidden role names and only claiming to have power or not hides the setup they need to duplicate.

Had more than one person claimed a power role, we would have been making them power claim in reverse order of the order they claimed, and then evaluating what came from that.

In essence, doing it this way created the GUARANTEE of a few confirmed townies, or gave us a guilty and a good plan. In this scenario, my play wasn't super necessary since we had a cop with a guilty

but what happens if the cop just claims the guilty and then the jailkeeper claims later?

Cop claims it, we kill 1, and the fake jail keeper "clears" someone as not the person who killed the cop and then it's GG. It's game over. Then the JK no kills, claims a guilty and boom.

We lose to duplication error.

Doing it this way prevents ALL that gambit shit.

Minor correction, I mixed up the setups. It's tracker+jk and cop+doc. Same logic still applies, just the exaple given at the bottom needs to change slightly.

[fferyllt]

One of the hotter topics in the dead thread was the Day 1 elim of JamesTheNames. I think it came down to running out of time and trying to make an elim happen given the players available to consolidate at that point.

He was nowhere near a universal scumread. He was a townread for the majority of players, I think.

Why do you think that happened?

peta's suggestions for how to take the lead and get an elim you want could have helped with the end of day 1, I think.

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

We'd just flipped a townie, and the game was at risk of hitting apathy. Forcing a mass claim creates new info and makes people have to chew on it and make decisions. I felt that using the mass claim timing here would provide town +EV if done like this.

Now, mechanical stuff: Popcorn because it prevents scum from being able to do weird fake claim stuff, and only claiming "power role or no" because of the same.

The way this setup is built creates the possibility for duplication errors. In that a cop is fine, ubt there's no guarantee the jailkeeper that claims is real or not, because the cop can't know the setup. It could be a real jailkeeper, or it could be mafia making the guess from that position.

Having popcorn'd order makes it harder to plan the timing of a fake claim, and having hidden role names and only claiming to have power or not hides the setup they need to duplicate.

Had more than one person claimed a power role, we would have been making them power claim in reverse order of the order they claimed, and then evaluating what came from that.

In essence, doing it this way created the GUARANTEE of a few confirmed townies, or gave us a guilty and a good plan. In this scenario, my play wasn't super necessary since we had a cop with a guilty

but what happens if the cop just claims the guilty and then the jailkeeper claims later?

Cop claims it, we kill 1, and the fake jail keeper "clears" someone as not the person who killed the cop and then it's GG. It's game over. Then the JK no kills, claims a guilty and boom.

We lose to duplication error.

Doing it this way prevents ALL that gambit shit.

That makes sense, but like I said I have never seen it done before.

Is that something you think should be done in general in a game that had a day 1 VT elim and a night 1 VT kill?

Or was there something more specific about this game that made you lean that way?

[HockeyFan]

One of the hotter topics in the dead thread was the Day 1 elim of JamesTheNames. I think it came down to running out of time and trying to make an elim happen given the players available to consolidate at that point.

He was nowhere near a universal scumread. He was a townread for the majority of players, I think.

Why do you think that happened?

peta's suggestions for how to take the lead and get an elim you want could have helped with the end of day 1, I think.

My best guess is that people saw recent votes on James from T3 and VFP(i think) and they wanted to sheep it. I think clakso voted james because he was the majority vote or smth. it was still a super unfortunate condemm

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Spoiler:

We'd just flipped a townie, and the game was at risk of hitting apathy. Forcing a mass claim creates new info and makes people have to chew on it and make decisions. I felt that using the mass claim timing here would provide town +EV if done like this.

Now, mechanical stuff: Popcorn because it prevents scum from being able to do weird fake claim stuff, and only claiming "power role or no" because of the same.

The way this setup is built creates the possibility for duplication errors. In that a cop is fine, ubt there's no guarantee the jailkeeper that claims is real or not, because the cop can't know the setup. It could be a real jailkeeper, or it could be mafia making the guess from that position.

Having popcorn'd order makes it harder to plan the timing of a fake claim, and having hidden role names and only claiming to have power or not hides the setup they need to duplicate.

Had more than one person claimed a power role, we would have been making them power claim in reverse order of the order they claimed, and then evaluating what came from that.

In essence, doing it this way created the GUARANTEE of a few confirmed townies, or gave us a guilty and a good plan. In this scenario, my play wasn't super necessary since we had a cop with a guilty

but what happens if the cop just claims the guilty and then the jailkeeper claims later?

Cop claims it, we kill 1, and the fake jail keeper "clears" someone as not the person who killed the cop and then it's GG. It's game over. Then the JK no kills, claims a guilty and boom.

We lose to duplication error.

Doing it this way prevents ALL that gambit shit.

That makes sense, but like I said I have never seen it done before.

Is that something you think should be done in general in a game that had a day 1 VT elim and a night 1 VT kill?

Or was there something more specific about this game that made you lean that way?

I think that, in this setup, a day 2 massclaim is nearly always correct. You risk far too much trying to extract more value out of unknown roles that may not HAVE any more value to create.

For example, Masons will only ever create 2 clears.

I think it's simpler to think about when you SHOULDN'T massclaim day 2. I have a hard time thinking of one in which I'm inclined not to. It creates a lot of new info for people to latch onto and reinvigorate a game, it means the reads people had from day 1 and into day 2 are either validated or need to be re-evaluated, and it prevents weird role claim shenanigans like I mentioned above.

I think it's just a good way to maximize your value from roles in almost all situations. Because most of the time, the eventual outcome is getting 2 cleared townies. From almost all of the situations. And that's pretty good, all things considered.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

One of the hotter topics in the dead thread was the Day 1 elim of JamesTheNames. I think it came down to running out of time and trying to make an elim happen given the players available to consolidate at that point.

He was nowhere near a universal scumread. He was a townread for the majority of players, I think.

Why do you think that happened?

peta's suggestions for how to take the lead and get an elim you want could have helped with the end of day 1, I think.

My best guess is that people saw recent votes on James from T3 and VFP(i think) and they wanted to sheep it. I think clakso voted james because he was the majority vote or smth. it was still a super unfortunate condemm

James died because I pushed him. I don't regret it or think it was a mistake.

My evaluation was that desipte T3 and VFP being scummy, doing the tango between them was a waste of win percentage and information. If they were both town from that position, we lose the game. Even if one of them was scum, we're in similar bad spots decently often.

Suddenly killing james polarized the game into "people who wanted to kill james" and "people who were opposed" and it helped me a lot in how we progressed through the game.

I don't regret it, also, because I felt James had scum equity tbh.

[Lukewarm]

What about the worry that we only have 1 pr?

Like, in this game, if clasko had claimed PR, and then Looker had claimed PR. That could have been 2 pr claims, with no counter claim?

Obviously that is a risk for the scum team, but they also know that they are in column c, so there is a 67% chance that one can get cleared into the pr group

[fferyllt]

One of the hotter topics in the dead thread was the Day 1 elim of JamesTheNames. I think it came down to running out of time and trying to make an elim happen given the players available to consolidate at that point.

He was nowhere near a universal scumread. He was a townread for the majority of players, I think.

Why do you think that happened?

peta's suggestions for how to take the lead and get an elim you want could have helped with the end of day 1, I think.

My best guess is that people saw recent votes on James from T3 and VFP(i think) and they wanted to sheep it. I think clakso voted james because he was the majority vote or smth. it was still a super unfortunate condemm

James died because I pushed him. I don't regret it or think it was a mistake.

My evaluation was that desipte T3 and VFP being scummy, doing the tango between them was a waste of win percentage and information. If they were both town from that position, we lose the game. Even if one of them was scum, we're in similar bad spots decently often.

Suddenly killing james polarized the game into "people who wanted to kill james" and "people who were opposed" and it helped me a lot in how we progressed through the game.

I don't regret it, also, because I felt James had scum equity tbh.

What did he do/not do that drew your attention? What should he work on to avoid it happening in the future?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What about the worry that we only have 1 pr?

Like, in this game, if clasko had claimed PR, and then Looker had claimed PR. That could have been 2 pr claims, with no counter claim?

Obviously that is a risk for the scum team, but they also know that they are in column c, so there is a 67% chance that one can get cleared into the pr group

Read the column again. One of the outcomes is Cop, who will either have a guilty (optimal) or an innocent (creating 2 cleared townies, the average)

The WOST POSSIBLE OUTCOME for this strategy is C2, Tracker Vanilla Townie. Because unless the tracker hits a positive result, their "clear" is not particularly useful. You get like, 1.5/1.25ish cleared townies.

If you end up in that situation, though, you just have to take your licks and move forward, I think. It's still optimal to the tracker dying without claiming their results.

And please note, that scum always know what column we are in by their own roles. So they don't have to guess from 9 setups, only 3. So once they know 1 role, with the exception of friendly neighbour, the know the setup.

So there's no point in hiding once you start claiming. The goons know when they're both goons, they're shooting for investigative roles or masons. People who tend to be quieter. It gives scum a higher likelyhood of shooting correctly, so don't give them multiple shots at it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

One of the hotter topics in the dead thread was the Day 1 elim of JamesTheNames. I think it came down to running out of time and trying to make an elim happen given the players available to consolidate at that point.

He was nowhere near a universal scumread. He was a townread for the majority of players, I think.

Why do you think that happened?

peta's suggestions for how to take the lead and get an elim you want could have helped with the end of day 1, I think.

My best guess is that people saw recent votes on James from T3 and VFP(i think) and they wanted to sheep it. I think clakso voted james because he was the majority vote or smth. it was still a super unfortunate condemm

James died because I pushed him. I don't regret it or think it was a mistake.

My evaluation was that desipte T3 and VFP being scummy, doing the tango between them was a waste of win percentage and information. If they were both town from that position, we lose the game. Even if one of them was scum, we're in similar bad spots decently often.

Suddenly killing james polarized the game into "people who wanted to kill james" and "people who were opposed" and it helped me a lot in how we progressed through the game.

I don't regret it, also, because I felt James had scum equity tbh.

What did he do/not do that drew your attention? What should he work on to avoid it happening in the future?

I'd need to re-read, I dumped that out of my brain after day 1, especially since I replaced in, but... I think that what pinged me about James was the way in which he approached his reads feeling more like scum who was trying to make appearance of scumhunting over town who actually was?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Again, I can't overstate the power of confidence and selling yourself to others.

[fferyllt]

Once again, thank you all for playing!

You're encouraged to keep playing newbies as long as you like, of course, but I humbly suggest trying out some of the other queues, if you're feeling brave and would like to check out other game styles and sizes!

If you liked the "solve the setup" interactions with a semi-open setup like the NewD3 setup, check out the open queue!
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12925435

There's also the Micro Queue! 9 Player Maximum, and all sorts of setups!
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12924531

Prefer to keep things a little more secret, and try out a larger pond? Try the Mini Normal queue!
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12913983

Would you like to try out a high-flavor and/or mechanically complex game? The Mini Theme queue might be just right for you!
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12921714

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So here's what happens, Luke, ready?

First of all, scum have to risk if they claim PR in the popcorn, the outcome of hitting the 3rd row. 2 Masons. If they claim PR, and it's masons, it's GG. 2 clears AND a guilty is basically game over.

So 33% chance to lose on the spot if you fake it. But let's say you have a hard read it's not that, what happens then. So you claim PR, or maybe you go last and there's only one claim so it's confirmed not masons, and you do that. So what now?

Well, if you went last, you have to claim your role first. Which means you have a 50/50 of fucking it up. You could claim Doctor, if you wanted, but here's the risk. If you claim doctor, and it's tracker? You can NEVER KILL THE TRACKER. Because there's no roleblocker. in that setup. So that's a loss. So you're 50/50 of hitting the right one of Doctor with cop or JK with tracker if you have to claim first.

Okay, so maybe you claimed correctly, or maybe you were asked to claim first so you claim role name second. Well, in that scenario, you dodged a 33 percent chance to lose, or a 50 percent chance to lose, so you're clear, right?

Wrong.

You never trust the Doctor or Jailkeeper claim as town. Since they have no power role, since you're faking that we're in A column. There's no use for you. So, we don't kill you on that day, but here's the fun thing.

If we kill a scum and they don't flip Roleblocker? You have to die for your claim. Die before ELO, because letting you live to ELO with your claim is kind of dangerous.

So you're not confirmed town with your claim. You don't get any benefit from it. And the town needs to suspect you anyway. So all you do is risk huge losses for no real gain, assuming the town understands only to trust the cop and the cop's result, or the tracker and the tracker's result.

And in no other world can scum fake claim.

Now, there are worlds where we ARE in A column, and this means a trusted town JK or Doctor will be suspected or killed. But that's okay too. Since you have actual Night 1 result chances to stop a kill in that world. So EV increases to balance there anyway.

TL;DR is... this SHOULD lock down and lock scum out of claims without them risking game losnig blunders, and doesn't provide them much benefit for trying.