Gypyx's Mini Normal Review, August 2021

[implosion]

Subject: Normal Queue Thread (Players and Mods)

/in to mod a mini normal

it's me again !

Town Day 1 Innocent Child
Town Activated Innocent Child Day 3 Innocent Child
Town Jack Of All Trades (Vigilante ; Doctor)
Vt*7

Mafia Innocent Child Finder Vigilante Finder
Mafia Universal Backup
Mafia Goon

[implosion]

Primary: mastina
Secondary: Ircher

[Ircher]

Doctor + Day 1 IC is not generally a favored interaction. Scum will pretty much always shoot the IC N1 unless they know/have good reason to suspect there is a doctor and then be upset when their kill fails.

[Gypyx]

ego

thoughts with the setup was basically to provide a consistent 3 cleared town with a lil' extra mind games for the sake of it

If mafia is too strong :
Vigilante Finder / UB can go (i like IC finder as it's kinda a warning as well)

If town is too strong :
Make the second IC macho maybe? idk, this verges slightly on the scumsided side of things in my eyes but still acceptable, so yeah

pedit : do they tho? in the IC setups i've seen (granted, not a lot of them but still), the IC generally doesn't die instantly

i really like the way the JOAT works tho, and like, for instance, he can't both shoot N1 and heal, so there's a choice

[Gypyx]

if that's still "eww" to you, i'd be fine with turning Vigi finder into Doc Finder

[Ircher]

I looked through the review archives and it's IC + watcher that was the one that was really ewww, so it might be okay here especially since the doctor is one shot. It's still not one I'd consider favorable, but I don't think it would prevent a pass here.

I think town's power is comparable to 3x masons. The JOAT is stronger than a mason but the ICs are quite a bit weaker. That said, town does have a decent chance of gaining an extra mislim here between the doc shot and vig shot. 3x masons versus all goons is considered balanced in an open, but being a closed setup makes it a big scumsided. I'm inclined to think this might be just outside the balanced region, but you might want to wait for mastina's thoughts.

[mastina]

Small question but important to confirm;
Finders find roles on a JOAT, right? Even if the JOAT has used that power?

[Gypyx]

pretty sure that's the case yes, a roleblocker finder would still find a used 1-shot Roleblocker right?

[mastina]

I'm having a hard time locking down balance for this setup, honestly--it's self-evidently incredibly swingy. If the town power roles are used well they are incredibly strong, granting what amounts to a full extra town-controlled death (one doctor protect to get on evens, one vig to get back on odds) with three conftown on top of that extra town elimination.

But because of their limited number and the scum's relative freedom in killing them, as long as they don't kill the person the joat is protecting they have relative free reign to kill as they please.

[Gypyx]

hmmm, so i'm assuming that the doc shot is problematic

you got any replacement ideas?

[mastina]

My first thought was babysitter, but that actually only makes swing even more extreme in this setup. (And to be clear, I don't think extreme swinginess in a Normal is inherently bad, it's just that in this case the sheer vast amount of swinginess is making it hard for me to get a gauge on the balance of the setup. Would actually appreciate Ircher's help here to give me a better lockdown one way or another. If I had to guess I'd think that the swinginess is more likely to favor the town than to favor the scum so would call it townsided but I don't have an instant fix. Need to think about it more.)

[Gypyx]

hmmm

just so i get a better hang of what would be needed, how would you evaluate setup balance in cases that the doc shot succeeds / fails (ircher can also answer that)

[Ircher]

Based on my earlier analysis, the doctor shot failing would result in a rather scum-sided game. That is, this setup with the JOAT replaced with a 1-Shot Vig would be too scumsided to run, but barely so. The setup would be more scum sided than the equivalent (referring to scum power) 3x masons setup.

The case where the doc shot succeeds is probably the opposite situation. Gaining a mislim is really powerful for town. I think in this scenario, the balance is pretty much flipped; the number of innocents plus the extra mislim will give scum a rough game. I don't think they'll have issues with taking out the confirmed innocents; by the nature of the setup (and they already know there are multiple ICs by having an IC finder and , protectives would have to be very limited. Thus, I'd expect them to just attempt the shot again. That said, scum might believe they were roleblocked rather than doc protected. That may pose problematic for them if they attempt to fake claim (although this setup encourages scum to just claim vanilla town from a setup spec perspective).

Overall, I think the outcome of that one action probably dictates the rest of the game. If it fails, scum have an easy game. If it succeeds, scum have an uphill battle. Thus, I think the primary question here is how often do we expect the doc shot to succeed? That number is pretty much guaranteed to be greater than rand since there is a Day 1 IC here, but how much more? I would conjecture that the percentage of successful doctor saves in this setup could be as high as 50% here, though this is pure conjecture not based on any objective measurements.

Another consideration: players really like shooting other players. It would not surprise me if the JOAT ends up using the doc shot on N2 instead of N1 the majority of the time. Also, the vig has the possibility of killing the other IC, however slight that may be.

I don't have any suggestions to improve the setup's balance while keeping it in its current vision. I feel like there ought to be some clever use of informed here, but I don't think outright telling scum there is a doctor of some sort is the right information to provide.

[Gypyx]

hmmm

how about "there is a JOAT with 2 of the following 4 abilities (Cop ; Vigilante ; Doctor ; Roleblocker)"

otherwise, i'd be fine turning the doc shot into a Neighborizer shot and removing the UB as a simple fix to maybe bring this townsided

[mastina]

Given the vigilante-finder that role might give the scum too much information in that they know if they find the vig they've found the JOAT.

I did have another idea though; it sounds counterintuitive, but I was actually considering if maybe the option to help decrease swing lies not in changing the JOAT's two powers, but rather adding more to it than just the two, maybe gating it with X-shot to compensate. (For instance, making it a 2-shot JOAT with Vigilante, Doctor, Neighbor, and maybe one other power such as Roleblocker.)

Keeping it limited to two nights but increasing the choices available makes it less obvious what the most optimal power usage is. By not knowing they need to use the vig to be conftown for instance, they could end up not being conftown. Or maybe they use the vig but then choose the wrong killstop.

[Gypyx]

so like, a 2-shot JOAT would be able to use 2 abilities out of his kit?

how about like, (Vigilante, Doctor, Jailkeeper, Tracker)?

[mastina]

so like, a 2-shot JOAT would be able to use 2 abilities out of his kit?

Correct.

how about like, (Vigilante, Doctor, Jailkeeper, Tracker)?

I actually like that combo.

[Gypyx]

welp, if ircher/you agrees, we would go with

Day 1 IC
Activated IC Day 3 IC
2-shot JOAT (Vigi ; Doctor ; Jailkeeper ; Tracker)
vt*7

Mafia Vigi finder Innocent child finder
Mafia UB
Mafia goon

?

[Ircher]

I think that's fine.

[mastina]

Setup gets a /pass from me, just need the role PMs now.

[Gypyx]

alright, wirting them 2day

[Gypyx]

Town Day 1 Innocent Child

Welcome ! You are a

Town Day 1 Innocent Child

On the start of Day 1, you will be publically confirmed as aligned with the Town

You win if the town survives to see all threats to them dead, the game thread is here

Town Day 3 Innocent Child Activated Innocent Child

Welcome ! You are a

Town Day 3 Innocent Child Activated Innocent Child

On the start of Day 3, you will be publically confirmed as aligned with the Town

At any point during daytime, you may PM me that you wish to reveal as an innocent child, this will cause you to be publically confirmed as aligned with the Town

You win if the town survives to see all threats to them dead, the game thread is here

Town 2-shot Jack Of All Trades (Doctor, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Vigilante)

Welcome ! You are a

Town 2-shot Jack Of All Trades (Doctor, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Vigilante)

Twice during the game, at night, you may perform anything from this list of 1-shot Abilities

Doctor : Your target will be protected from 1 kill attempt
Jailkeeper : Your target will be protected from kills and prevented from performing any action
Tracker : You will learn who your target targeted this night
Vigilante : You will kill your target

You win if the town survives to see all threats to them dead, the game thread is here

Your target visited [PLAYER]

Your target didn't visit anyone

You received no result, your action failed

Vanilla Townie

Welcome ! You are a

Vanilla Townie

You have no power other than your voice and your vote

You win if the town survives to see all threats to them dead, the game thread is here

Mafia Innocent Child Finder Vigilante Finder

Welcome ! You are a

Mafia Innocent Child Finder Vigilante Finder

You are a member of the Mafia, along with [PEOPLES], you may discuss at any time in your private topic here, you may also choose to be the one performing the factional kill each night

Each night, you may choose to check if someone is an Innocent Child

Each night, you may choose to check if someone is a Viglante

You win if the Mafia survives to see all threats to them, the game thread is here

[PLAYER] is an Innocent Child / Vigilante

[PLAYER] isn't an Innocent Child / Vigilante

Mafia Universal Backup

Welcome ! You are a

Mafia Universal Backup

You are a member of the Mafia, along with [PEOPLES], you may discuss at any time in your private topic here, you may also choose to be the one performing the factional kill each night

You will Inherit the first power role to die in your faction

You win if the Mafia survives to see all threats to them, the game thread is here

[PLAYER] died, you are now [ROLE]

Mafia Goon

Welcome ! You are a

Mafia Goon

You are a member of the Mafia, along with [PEOPLES], you may discuss at any time in your private topic here, you may also choose to be the one performing the factional kill each night

You win if the Mafia survives to see all threats to them, the game thread is here

[Gypyx]

did the town blue because i heard about colorblind peoples having trouble differenciating Green / Red, i think it's fine right?

[mastina]

Town Day 1 Innocent Child

Welcome ! You are a

Town Day 1 Innocent Child

On the start of Day 1, you will be publically confirmed as aligned with the Town
You win if the town survives to see all threats to them dead, the game thread is here

For the record, you don't need to specify D1 IC here as an IC is by default D1.

Town Day 3 Innocent Child Activated Innocent Child

Welcome ! You are a

Town Day 3 Innocent Child Activated Innocent Child

On the start of Day 3, you will be publically confirmed as aligned with the Town

At any point during daytime, you may PM me that you wish to reveal as an innocent child, this will cause you to be publically confirmed as aligned with the Town

You win if the town survives to see all threats to them dead, the game thread is here

Behind the scenes, we're working on getting more standardization to ICs but lacking it right now, I'd like to state that I'd prefer that "at any point during the daytime" instead be "at any point", allowing for the reveal to be during either day or night.

Also common to both ICs, you're spelling "publicly" wrong.

Town 2-shot Jack Of All Trades (Doctor, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Vigilante)

Welcome ! You are a

Town 2-shot Jack Of All Trades (Doctor, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Vigilante)

Twice during the game, at night, you may perform anything from this list of 1-shot Abilities

Doctor : Your target will be protected from 1 kill attempt
Jailkeeper : Your target will be protected from kills and prevented from performing any action
Tracker : You will learn who your target targeted this night
Vigilante : You will kill your target

You win if the town survives to see all threats to them dead, the game thread is here

I would also like you to specify "you can only perform one of these actions per night" for charity.

Mafia Innocent Child Finder Vigilante Finder

Welcome ! You are a

Mafia Innocent Child Finder Vigilante Finder

You are a member of the Mafia, along with [PEOPLES], you may discuss at any time in your private topic here, you may also choose to be the one performing the factional kill each night

Each night, you may choose to check if someone is an Innocent Child

Each night, you may choose to check if someone is a Viglante

You win if the Mafia survives to see all threats to them, the game thread is here

I would also prefer if you included "you may only use one action per night (this includes the mafia nightkill)" or something similar, as this is not a Combined IC Finder Vigilante Finder and not a multitasking IC Finder Vigilante Finder, so it can do 1/3 of {find IC, find vig, perform factional nightkill} and not 2/3 or all three.

did the town blue because i heard about colorblind peoples having trouble differenciating Green / Red, i think it's fine right?

It is.

[mastina]

*for clarity