[SETUP] Undertale Semi-Open

[Jingle]

Fwiw, btw, Purgatory is an MS setup already, it just doesn’t get run often.

[Jingle]

I think it may be the literal part of my brain biting me in the butt.

It’s valid parsing, just not a very Isis like role design so unlikely. I assume it’s the variant of doublevoter where the player has two votes they can use on two separate players. Which is kind of a pain from a moderation perspective but in line with how Isis normally makes setups.

[MathBlade]

Ah so cool so probably best to change the wording to match that

[Isis]

Toriel's Patience

3 Mafia
11 Town
Nights 1-3 are skipped.
One player is randomly, publicly Toriel at game start. Toriel is a doublevoter day one, has a single vote day two, and no votes thereafter. Players can't vote for Toriel, except for on day there where every post must contain a vote for Toriel. (Enforced by mod edits and a warning).
Between day two and day three, players choose Mercy or Fight. If Mercy is chosen, for there rest of the game subsequent eliminations are flavored as sparings and town wins if town spares four townies and loses if it spares two mafia.
If Fight is chosen, those effects are simply not applied.

As a special effect, if Toriel is town and the day 1 and day 2 eliminations were each mafia, Toriel becomes a 22 shot dayvig.

[Chara]

i like the concept of the town deciding on spare vs. fight based on their read on Toriel, rather than deciding which is better mechanically on its own.

perhaps "a regular voter" could be used instead of "a single vote" to eliminate that ambiguity entirely?

is the decision between Mercy and Fight a public vote?

[Jingle]

As a special effect, if Toriel is town and the day 1 and day 2 eliminations were each mafia, Toriel becomes a 22 shot dayvig.

Hilariously, this doesn’t actually help the setup autowin for town happen faster. The autowin is by being unable to hit any mafia wincons before 4 townies get spared, and toriel dayvigging actually prevents that unless mafia doesn’t win at parity.

I do appreciate the tongue in cheek though.

[Isis]

If the meme doesn't work I will probably just leave the checkmate out of the description and enforce it anyway.

Yeah path is a public vote

[MathBlade]

Toriel's Patience

3 Mafia
11 Town
Nights 1-3 are skipped.
One player is randomly, publicly Toriel at game start. Toriel is a doublevoter day one, has a single vote day two, and no votes thereafter. Players can't vote for Toriel, except for on day there where every post must contain a vote for Toriel. (Enforced by mod edits and a warning).
Between day two and day three, players choose Mercy or Fight. If Mercy is chosen, for there rest of the game subsequent eliminations are flavored as sparings and town wins if town spares four townies and loses if it spares two mafia.
If Fight is chosen, those effects are simply not applied.

As a special effect, if Toriel is town and the day 1 and day 2 eliminations were each mafia, Toriel becomes a 22 shot dayvig.

Typo there should be three and single vote should be regular voter

[MathBlade]

How does day one end?

If players have no elimination and no mercy flight choice day one what do town players do?
Maybe add a “end day” elim vote for town if they don’t want to spend the full timer

[Isis]

Day one and day two have a regular elimination. Day 2.5 has a mercy or fight choice. Day 3 is voting for toriel

[Isis]

Toriel's Patience

3 Mafia
11 Town
Nights 1-3 are skipped.
One player is randomly, publicly Toriel at game start. Toriel is a doublevoter on day one. Players can't vote for Toriel, except for on day 3 in which every post must contain a vote for Toriel. (Enforced by mod edits and a warning).
Between day two and day three, players choose Mercy or Fight. If Mercy is chosen, for the rest of the game subsequent eliminations are flavored as sparings and town wins if town spares four townies and loses if it spares two mafia.
If Fight is chosen, those effects are simply not applied.

[MathBlade]

Scum can auto lose if two scum elimmed day one and two. Town votes for Mercy and scum can’t win.

This can be mitigated with Flipless but towns hate flipless.

Maybe spares two or all remaining mafia after the vote?

[MathBlade]

I’d go as far to say if scum is Toriel scum can’t win town picks Mercy every time and scum loses.

[MathBlade]

Why am I so literal?

I misunderstood the mercy/fight applies to Toriel as well so not instant loss.

[Jingle]

Scum can auto lose if two scum elimmed day one and two. Town votes for Mercy and scum can’t win.

I’d pointed this out and Isis said she’d consider 2scum->mercy to be endgame in 156, just not explicitly addressed in the setup.

That doesn’t seem egregious to me; if anything it’s less restrictive than White Flag.

Similarly, two town mercy would be an auto scum win, but town can just not pick mercy there.

[Isis]

Similarly, two town mercy would be an auto scum win, but town can just not pick mercy there.

Could you explain this?

[Not Known 15]

Similarly, two town mercy would be an auto scum win, but town can just not pick mercy there.

Could you explain this?

11v3
10v3
9v3-spare 1
8v3(Toriel is town)1 spared/9v2(Toriel is scum)
6v3;2 spared/7v2; 1 spared
4v3 - 3 spared; spare to win/5v2; 2 spared
already won/3v2 - 3 spared, spare to win

No I don't see that.
The mercy/spare mechanic is an indirect vote for Toriel being town or scum. You spare if Toriel is town. You don't if Toriel is scum.(unless you eliminate 2 scum Day 1/2, then you spare for the autowin)

[Jingle]

Similarly, two town mercy would be an auto scum win, but town can just not pick mercy there.

Could you explain this?

2 town eliminated and you go to spares, you're at 3v9.

Spare 1 town, 3v7
Spare 2 town 3v5
Spare 3 town 3v3
It is actually impossible to get the last spare on town, even if Toriel is town.

Scum forces the no spare, kills town and has thread control. Scum then spares scum twice in a row.

Of course, if town have eliminated two townies going into D3, they can just... Not vote mercy. At worst this leads into 3v7 mountainous, but scum have already earned two town eliminations and this relies on Toriel actually being town. So it's an autowin for scum only if town actively gamethrows. Consequently, this is the only situation in which it could even possibly be viable to not want to eliminate Toriel, although from a numbers perspective you still would and unless everyone in the game was 100% sure Toriel was town it would still be the objectively right play because information is better than no information and town gets no benefit from being on evens.

Edit: Just realized N3 is skipped as well, so this is wrong. But this was my reasoning.

[Isis]

I follow. Would a purgatory judgment day style mechanic for Mercy endgames be fair there to keep both paths in consideration? It seems that dynamic emerges due to the victorious path actively removing townies from play, similar to purgatory

[Jingle]

Skipping the N3 kill already works, I was misreading it as skipping kills until N3. NKs numbers are accurate.

It’s better numbers wise to fight if you have mislims and spare if you don’t, but that’s more a feature than a flaw.

[Isis]

It'd a little sad if it overshadows the question of Toriel's alignment but that might be me designing for myself instead of designing for the players.

Yeah, it is a little weird that on d2.5 genocide, day three eliminate toriel, "we got rid of all the special mechanics and we are left with regular mafia now right?" It's like uh no we are skipping night 3. But I came up with the core mechanic then then tried to think about the number of mafia and I wanted and the number of townies I wanted and the number of virtual townies I wanted, where a virtual townies is a word I just came up with right this second to express the extra persistent one from a skipped night kill, and it was 11 3 3, and then I decided I want the skips at the beginning (which I like here but may not always be best, FakeGods dance intermission has been fascinating)

[Jingle]

I mean, you only play by numbers with mafia in the cases where your reads are weak or it's genuinely the only viable option.

Otherwise subjective play wins out.

[Isis]

Toriel's Patience

3 Mafia
11 Town
Nights 1-3 are skipped.
One player is randomly, publicly Toriel at game start. Toriel is a doublevoter on day one. Players cannot vote for Toriel.
On Day 2.5, players vote to choose Mercy or Fight. If Mercy is chosen, for the rest of the game subsequent eliminations are flavored as sparings and town wins if town spares four townies and loses if it spares two mafia.
If Fight is chosen, those effects are simply not applied.
Day 3 lasts one prod timer and voting is disabled. The day 3 elimination is Toriel.