huh, gamma was less buddy buddy with Val than I thoughtIn post 547, Gamma Emerald wrote:Val89 I have as town because if he’s scum with Ythan that IMO requires some weird play by the both of them.
and on the flip side, this is more of the type of town read I would expect from a scum partner. lots of reasoning and detailIn post 644, Val89 wrote:I'm not 100 percent on any of my reads, but I think Gamma is town here, and I've seen no case from anyone that's made me reconsider so far.In post 636, Leaven wrote:So Val, are you 100 percent ruling out Gamma as scum here?
I wasn't on the salsa wagon, but that is because it happened so fast and was done and dusted while I was offline, so I didn't get a chance to evaluate if I considered it to have merit. Looking back, though, I think what was presented against Salsa was a reasonable case for that stage of the game, and while I felt Ythan was scummier, I can see why town!Gamma casts that vote. I don't think anyone was expecting it to result in a self hammer as quick as it did, and the only thing I find really suspicious about how that wagon went was Ythan putting her in hammer range without announcing it.
Ultimately, I think the if you accept Sala was the 'easy' mislim yesterday, with her flipping Town, the makes Gamma the easy mislim today, if you were scum trying to chain one into another, and I find the reasons Gamma gave yesterday for voting Salsa more compelling, even knowing the flip, than I do "well, he pushed a mislim wagon" in isolation, and I'm starting to consider Leaven more likley scum for pushing that on that basis.
I'm still much more sure Ythan is flipping red than anyone else at this point though. I thought he was scummy as hell yesterday, the unannounced E-1 was another ping, and then he has spent the day straight up lurking.
Translation: You were pushing Ythan most of day 1 and 2; and then scumread me at the end of day 2. I need to see if you still scumread me now on D3 before I can make a decision about who is best to push today, and who I want to keep alive for ELO.In post 812, Dannflor wrote:I need to see if you've also been thinking about things through the night and if so where those thoughts have led you
Translation: I really need an answer to that question, Val. Might I be able to convince you to vote Ythan today after all, since you obviously thought they were scum at some point?In post 826, Dannflor wrote:val can you help me understand where your reads of me and ythan lie and who you think is more likely to be scum
did ythan do something remarkably towny or are you just that sure I'm scum after yesterday
It occurred to me this morning that outing the doctor today is actually even worse because it means the confirmed town cop can be killed tonight.In post 809, Ythan wrote:Except that it's guaranteed if we out the doctor smhIn post 808, Dannflor wrote:then we're in the same situation as we would be if the doctor claimed today?In post 805, StrangeMatter wrote:And if the doctor doesn't survive, what then?In post 800, Ythan wrote:We have an advantage if the doctor survives tonight in that the scum will have to fake counter claim doctor, but you're trying to out the doctor today which would mean they can't possibly survive the night.
this feels awfully un-self-aware of me doesn't it?In post 828, Val89 wrote:Call it one-dimensional thinking if want, but I can't see this as a natural progression at all. To answer your question, SM, what I ment by 'withholding' is that Dann's entrance today with the 'I'm not going to say what I am thinking until Val says what he is thinking', and the play we have seen today looks an awful lot like Danns reads and pushes are predicated much more on who thinks he might be able to muster votes against, and who might still be townreading him and thus a candidate to keep alive if a scum!Dann makes it to ELO, than it does who he actually thinks is scummy; and thus he holds stuff back or flip-flops until he gets the info he needs to read the room.
like, gah, where on earth did I indicate I would be pushing ythan today, or even wanted toIn post 829, Val89 wrote:Translation: I really need an answer to that question, Val. Might I be able to convince you to vote Ythan today after all, since you obviously thought they were scum at some point?
In post 533, StrangeMatter wrote:1. The two others in this wagon, (Ythan, Gamma) are scum, and pushed it to waste time over day 1. More leaning towards scum being Ythan here.
these are the main posts I keep coming back to that make me think the scum could be StrangeMatterIn post 535, StrangeMatter wrote:I have no regrets if he flips green. I’d rather eliminate this now than let him stay, though.
VOTE: Ythan
This is where I'm at as well, but can empathize with Strange's sentiments early day 2 to policy vote Ythan, and the end of day 2 only strengthens my empathy with that view.In post 822, Dannflor wrote:Now, I am less sure on ythan. However, my gut pretty much the whole game has also told me ythan is town.
I could be wrong there. I think it sucks that he had so much inactivity in the middle of the game. but generally I think his reactions have been towny?
Let's look at Gamma now. Gamma enters the game buddying up to Val and suspecting Ythan. As a very general rule, scum don't really want to do either of those with their buddies coming into the game, unless their buddies are already in a particularly bad or good spot. As of Gamma's entrance, I don't believe enough game content had been generated to really put Val or Ythan in particularly good or bad spots.
Gamma continues to push Ythan in #412, #418, #423, #427, #431, and #444. It's a pretty hard push all things considered. Ythan is not a bad player. His wagon had melted before Gamma had replaced in. I doubt Gamma would have felt the need to bus this hard coming into the game. Now, it's not an impossibility that they could be partners. I have some lingering doubt because Gamma never actually voted ythan, but I find it unlikely.
It's also usually unlikely for scum to vote one after another on a miselimination. Again, not impossible. But scum, whether intentionally or unintentionally, usually try to spread out and not concentrate on a single wagon.
This is where I disagree, since I really took your early posting in day 2 to imply ythan or gamma (despite voting ythan with a green flip excuse), but then when pressed on the issue, it seemed like you became a Gamma defender.In post 843, StrangeMatter wrote:I don't think Ythan is likely to flip scum at this point, and while yes I did say that I didn't have a better person I wanted to vote at that point.
I town read this initiallyIn post 725, StrangeMatter wrote:And speaking of which, Dannflor you've been pushing me as a scumread since day 1 and at this point I'd like to have Leaven confirm that you're completely wrong and wasted so much time focusing on my slot.