Mini 2230: Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night: Game Over

[Here There Be Dragons]

also i just wanted to say i was annoyed that after we posted luke-town medea swooped in with a big pro-luke post. i want credit. :V

[Snarky Fishes]

ok with you to drop the spoiler tags?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think it’s 2 wrongs don’t make a right? I got lost in e context a bit.

[✓]

heh, tell your sister that.

[Medea the Alien]

pedit sure, fine.

Also...

Spoiler:

I think even in this player list you're the player most likely to break the setup such that bork would have to modify something as weighty as an alternate wincon on the fly.

Who do you think could also do that in the amount of time it took?

There. that thought has materialized.

I would hope nearly ANY list of three names in this setup would be capable of "breaking the setup" depenign on what knowledge scum started with but I also take two major objections to this:

1: "Breaking the setup" is not something that Bork would literally change the game midgame for. Remember that surprise early loss in one of the Bork minis where scum had a bonus kill out of nowhere? Bork is not the type of mod to EVER just change the setup because one team or the other found a winning move. Think about it from a mod integrity POV. If it were a FGO setup or something I'd be writing my apologies posts but I sure as hell wouldn't completely change the rules midway into the game.

2: Why are we even assuming that "scumteam breaking the setup" would be the catalyst for the change, as opposed to a typo or misunderstanding of the game rules as initially reviewed by Syr being corrected?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Anyway. Even without seeing that post, I was a lot less guarded with you last night. And that's kinda the way I want to progress, and I'll hold the snark if you will.

Spoiler: Less Guarded

I'm basically completely fucking lost, town reading Luke has done terrible things to my other reads, I'm grounding my wife form the game for at least a few days because she had a breakdown last night and I can't bear to see her get sucked into this meatgrinder.

I feel like we're gonna end up being the consensus elim here and that we'll flip and that 9 (well, 8) of you are going to have to pick up the pieces. And that if I was wrong about Luke, I could be wrong about nearly fucking anybody. Literally only you and notsci hydra are our rocks and if either or both of you are scum well fucking played you can have your tenet revenge. This entire game started off on the wrong foot and this feels like the game where I tunneled town pooky-alt until I got mislim'd for the GG.

I feel like terrible things are happening and I'm adrift, unable to stop them from happening or positively influence them. I imagine this is how unwnd felt in tenet before he replaced out, but I'm too stubborn and braindead to let myself do that.

So instead I'm here, taking stupid ass potshots where I feel I can make valuable data for those who will outlive me to sort through in hindsight.

Spoiler:

How is your Luke read affecting your other reads? ATM seeing him as town hasn't really impacted my other reads. read changes/strength changes to the extent they're happening aren't based on how I read him with one exception (below). I think I've been less town on Titus than you have though.

unwnd's stances around manatee and Luke have me a little spooked, having come around to town-Luke. But that's about unwnd's stances,

Luke being town means I'm out of room in the town bin. This isn't some secret "lol just a SK and 12 townies" game so there HAVE to be three scum, but damned if I can have any strong feelings on who it is. You may hate that I make the comparison, but I feel beat down like you and I were in Illict. Remember at one point when we discussed the possibility that we'd be early-elim'd and how much it would suck, but more importantly, how much it made us distrust those voting us? I've got 4 votes on me. They literally can't all be scum.

Maybe I'm giving somebody a pass that I shouldn't be. The "getting a pass and not body of work" list of my assorted reads is occupied by {Dunn, Unwnd, Rhea, Pooks} but like, I don't know what the fuck to do about the Rhea read any more.

She apparently has seen my scum game directly, not that I ever recall playing with her specifically whatsoever, and thinks that this is it. I have no idea how to weigh that.

My townread on unwnd was due to pre-reveal contents, paired with "grumpy old man yells at the whale" credit. Do I like, drop that? I don't know. He seems to be wanting to "nail the big one" but then his actual votes are as a follower not a leader. There's a catharsis post-rant sitting in our drafts that will likely never leave it where penguin goes the fuck off about his behavior.

Pooky was trolled/bantered into giving game contents but once again, I'm not sure that his body of work is all that town outright. But I keep seeing flashes that make me nod along and go like "Yeah, that's probably town pooks"

Dunn is a more "traditional" read, whatever that means to you. We both liked his contents and in general, his tendency to be the more reserves one with great insights has been present once or twice this game.

In my understanding, Cabd's scumgame is one in which he identifies weaknesses and winconditions in his team, proposes pathways to achieve those conditions, and aims to complete them with perfection. At least, that's how it was done in Tenet, is my understanding. The nuances of it are lost on me, but I also can tell from the way Cabd talks that Cabd is prideful too. Which is why I said earlier in the game that your hydra's switch, explicitly Cabd's, pre to post rule change set me off as a scum read because I felt Cabd was aiming for a certain kind of win condition, he'd plotted his course with his team, and post that, he needed to change his course, and that course required him to have more of a hand in things. So he came up with a good lie, and rode that into the sunset.

[?]

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler:

LLD and annie, do you think luke is town?

i feel like the people i would like to ask are either scum or living on another planet this game.

bulge here

luke is my strongest scumread. I doubt notty feels as strongly but we haven't really talked yet today, I've been trying to power thru reading today with as few preventable distractions (read: non-irl stuff) as possible.

when pressed about the fact he hasn't been solving or playing to his town meta, luke reacts with 1) confusion and/or 2) examples from other games. his play this game has been [uncharacteristically*] defensive. his claims of playing this game with a drive to solve amount to a whole lot of Lukewarm vs The World. and I'm pretty sure you are the only(?) slot up to bat for him.

* but meta is not as core to this read as I might be making it out to be

You were the one who was bringing up other games, and I was responding to your meta points....

Spoiler: How you approached the conversation with me

you did a spend a good while focusing on that one medea post, that's more my concern than the vote itself. something I've admired about your townplay before is your ability to focus on what's important while not losing sight of the big picture. here you're honing in on stuff i don't think matters enough to drag on as long as it has and I haven't seen as much of a holistic approach as I might expect from what I know of your town play.

looking back now at both games we've played together, you were catching up in both (replacement in 2069 and missed d1 in tarot) so that could factor into what i'm seeing/not seeing. but in both cases (and extending past the catchup period) you were still able to maintain a healthy overall outlook on the game. I could see in your post progression where you were in your reading, I could see where your thoughts and observations were coming from every time. here it's like you wait and then react, like moving onto the next step. it feels to me like with the one PA post in particular had you painting yourself into a corner, initially unable to produce content as wide-spanning as your town play, and then locked into a certain trajectory after leaning too heavily on the one issue. and like, with what you were saying about nerves in this game, which I'm taking at face value no matter your alignment, that lines up to me.

I guess the real difference I'm trying to get at luke is that in the situations you referenced, you were pushing scum for misplays. that's what I mean by focused on the right things. i'm not saying "scum luke hones in and town luke doesn't". I just think you're focusing on pointless bull and coming off somewhat defensive in the process, and it's jarring to me.

You started the conversation by talking about meta from my other games, and I responded by talking about my other games....

You say that I am not solving, but actually I think you just don't like the way I have been solving, which is not the same thing.

Off the top of my head, here are times that I can think of where I was actively asking question that I thought would help me sort a player.

Spoiler: Here is me actively trying to sort Penguin

Luke is Medea town or scum and why

Cabd is hard to read, but I guess lean scum?

This might just be omgus, but am not liking his 270.

Cabd seems to think that I am an easy person to read if Ceph's game is any indication, so the fact that he appears to be outsourcing the read to Dunn instead of talking to me / figuring me out himself seems suspicious to me.

I am on board with the "my wife won't let me give out reads" being a strange stance

Luke is Medea town or scum and why

Cabd is hard to read, but I guess lean scum?

This might just be omgus, but am not liking his 270.

Cabd seems to think that I am an easy person to read if Ceph's game is any indication, so the fact that he appears to be outsourcing the read to Dunn instead of talking to me / figuring me out himself seems suspicious to me.

I am on board with the "my wife won't let me give out reads" being a strange stance

I miss incisive Lukewarm that I've spectated elsewhere.

--PA

JFC

--PA, who is also allowed to fucking post in this game and even has the damn courtesy to sign

Oh. missed the sign on that one.

Well, I will change it around then. Why were you asking dunn about his read on me, instead of asking Cabd?

I feel like I would trust town!cabd to get an accurate read on me more quickly then Dunn -- and I am absent from your iso prior to that post

I don't like the way Luke is pushing the "outsource read on me" angle

My point was that I don't think that Cabd's read on me would ever be influenced by your read on me (at the time my brain said that came from cabd), so I questioned why they singled in on me that way in your list of 5 names.

It was also phrased in such a way that slightly agreed with a scum read, like they were encouraging you to dig into it.

So, when asking why they made that post, scum trying to egg a townie into leading a push / wagon on someone comes to mind

Basically, it's not entirely about you, and LOL forever at the idea of me outsourcing reads.

To be clear, my point was that you would NOT outsource a read. I was never implying that that is what you were doing.

But the phrasing around it. you did not just ask him to go into detail about his read, which I would expect if you were trying to get a better feel for Dunn, and whether his read on me was genuine.

It was the asking about the read, while also soft agreeing with it that seemed strange.

Like I said, it looked more designed to egg dunn into pushing me then anything else

Do you think Dunn is a player inclined to be led around by the nose? And why the jump to characterizing a request for another player's read on a third person as outsourcing then? Given that he also doesn't feel good about us, I'm hardly likely to take him as gospel.

--PA

You are thinking about it backwards.

270 is structured as "dunn talk to me about Lukewarm" followed by weak reasons you might be concerned about me. Vague suspicions without actually saying that you thought I was leaning scum or anything.

Given that structure, it looks like you are either

1) Suspicious of me, and are looking to Dunn to confirm your suspicions (ie outsourceing the read) or

2) Trying to help build up dunn's scum read, so he would push it more.

I don't think that you or cabd would ever do 1, which left me suspicious that it was 2

Oh, and VOTE: Medea

Spoiler: Here is me actively trying to see if Cabd perspective slipped

Cabd, what is your read on ffery?

I was asking to dig into a very specific thing that looked a bit inconsistent. You choosing not to answer and instead insult is strange

@ffery, what is cabd's "stated" read on you?

@ffery, what is cabd's "stated" read on you?

If someone role claimed to you and only you in a game, what would you assume their read is?

Spread about 10 lbs of wifom icing on that cake.

See, I gathered that if he really was town, then you would need to be a town read at the time when they claimed to you.

But then I thought that 340 was shade at you for claiming to need more information, ie, his read was changing, especially given his 245 indicating that his read on you was not set in stone.

Maybe I just misread the intent of 340 then. The inconsistency has resolved itself

Spoiler: Me trying to work out Manatee's thought process to see if it was genuine

theres kind of a disconnect between what im saying and what im thinking often which is just frustrating bc its understandable why i get in shit for it but i don't know how to communicate how i miscommunicated. when i wrote "votes" on medea head manatee was really just thinking abt lukewarm

Exactly my vote (and subsequent unvote) was enough for you to dismiss the whole wagon as tainted, and then give your null read a town read?

Medea - nullish.
-
i guess bc i think some votes on them are scummy i'd default town

theres kind of a disconnect between what im saying and what im thinking often which is just frustrating bc its understandable why i get in shit for it but i don't know how to communicate how i miscommunicated. when i wrote "votes" on medea head manatee was really just thinking abt lukewarm

Exactly my vote (and subsequent unvote) was enough for you to dismiss the whole wagon as tainted, and then give your null read a town read?

Medea - nullish.
-
i guess bc i think some votes on them are scummy i'd default town

Like, if I make this change to match what you just said, this is what you think about Medea?

Medea - nullish.
-
i guess bc i think

some

Luke's

vote on them

are

is

scummy i'd default town

VOTE: Manatee

Spoiler: Me trying to sort if Sleez's suspicions on me were genuine or not

VOTE: Lukewarm

Least comfortable vote on Medea, so much that even himself couldn't believe it. . Fraudulent behavior.

What does this mean?

VOTE: Lukewarm

Least comfortable vote on Medea, so much that even himself couldn't believe it. . Fraudulent behavior.

What does this mean?

You know what it means. This isn't a riddle for you to figure out, unless you're new usually your vote is meant to have purpose. Yet it didn't, and nothing you say to me feels like it comes from a process where you're concerned about reads.

I am trying to figure out what you mean by saying least comfortable. That you are least comfortable with my vote of all of the votes? Or that I am the person least comfortable voting them?

Also, not sure what you mean when you say that I don't believe it.

I am almost certain you know what I'm saying and you think being befuddled could make people townread you.

I mean, I do have a guess. But I would rather you say it yourself in your own words, instead of me feeding your own opinion to you

And those are just the ones that lasted for a few exchanges.

In addition to the above, I have been slowly building up town reads on players like Dunn, the dragons, unwnd, notty, ffery, bell, more recently LLD. (Link to my town cases on ffery and notty)

I am here. I am sorting. But also yeah, I am responding to people's suspicions on me.

You my say that it is just woe is me, but actually each of those times that I linked above, when I was actively trying to dig in to sort someone, it resulted in someone turning around and snapping / attack me. I actually think that your slot has shaded me for 3 of the 4 above digs. So you guys are both attacking me for digging in, but also saying that I am not doing it at all. It feels like you are selectively reading my posts, and I think I would snap vote you right now if you were not sharing a slot with Notty :evil:

Even with that, you are making me doubt your slot. I would ask anyone to sift through annie's iso, and look for what bulge specifically has commented on. The only things I have seen him talk about were me and manatee. And there has been a lot more going on this game...

I like this post

Spoiler:

Annie Edison (notscience/The Bulge)

- my read on them is changed, not because they backed off on my case but more to do with the mindset they have come from. If Annie is mafia, they would want to hang on to my elimination regardless.

Dunnstral

My earlier read on them was a town but i don't see much from them anymore. Ceph is usually a pro-scum player and i didn't get that vibe from them.

Lady Lambdadelta

I honestly dislike their attitude toward how i felt about their signal posts. I am not against selective mutism but it is not helping me get some concrete inputs from them.

Lukewarm

i had a hard time reading him, my earlier read was null but this game doesn't sound like a town luke. He is leaning scum to me now!

ManateeGal

Manatee is my newly developed scum read, they started off saying that my initial posts were genuine and in another post, they pointed my opening was bad. they were provoking annie to continue to keep their vote on me but he was voting luke.

Medea the Alien (cabd/penguin_alien)

I have said my reasons before. Medea is my strong town read.

PookyTheMagicalBear

I initially read pooky as town but the latest posts are not giving me the same vibes.

unwnd Sleez

unwnd is town for the reasons i have mentioned about sleez.

Snarky fishes (Bell/fferyllt)

logical and unorthodox approach. lean town for me.

Spiffeh

this is another slot that my reading is changing but i am still scum reading them due to how they played in the early day phase.

Titus

Although her earlier posts looked town but they seemed to be picking up well on pressure which concerns a bit.

Too many scumreads here. Townreads are for weak reasons.

[Dunnstral]

oops.

[Medea the Alien]

If your assessment is incorrect, you should file an appeal with the Property tax Appeal Board whose website is located at http://www.ptab.illinois.gov/ or contact a local property legal firm.

[Medea the Alien]

That was my joke of the night, brb grabbing dinner.

[Dunnstral]

My absence was part laziness, part busyness, and part not wanting to comment 2 pages at a time 10 pages back

Unfortunately, I will be absent for a few hours until most normal people are asleep. I do want to talk to Unwnd and maybe LLD because I do not have 3 clean scumreads, and if it's not manatee then there are going to be a lot of problems in my reads.

Actually lets do this.

VOTE: Maantee

I don't get it, why was my post quoted?

[Dunnstral]

Something I meant to go back and add, but that I forgot

Spoiler: Addendum for Bulge

I guess the real difference I'm trying to get at luke is that in the situations you referenced, you were pushing scum for misplays. that's what I mean by focused on the right things. i'm not saying "scum luke hones in and town luke doesn't". I just think you're focusing on pointless bull and coming off somewhat defensive in the process, and it's jarring to me.

I missed this the first time through the thread. I still don't think that I see the distinction that you are trying to draw.

In Newbie 2065, this is the post that resulted in me scum reading T3, and pushing him out

Bulge, what particularly stuck out to you about that? What stuck out to me was mostly that it was a brand newbie supposedly having read a bunch of games. This reads to me as if almost fake helpful and as if it was fed by a scumpartner.

Now, the post that stood out to me from Penguin

Talk to me about Lukewarm. Because, self-centered as it is, I didn't like his whole 'nice guy' approach to the idea of yeeting Cabd with a 'poor penguin doesn't play many games these days' sentiment. Maybe I'm just a bitch, but if you find scum you yeet scum and let them troll the dead thread instead. I realize Lukewarm has a persona of 'wouldn't have condoned the Marci quickelim, let everyone have a turn with the class teddy bear' but does he really think anyone who believes a slot that has both Cabd and a scum role PM should be giving it room out of pity?

I miss incisive Lukewarm that I've spectated elsewhere.

--PA

Penguins is much prettier, and nicely structured, but they are even structured the exact same way. "@TownieA. Tell me more about why you are suspicious of TownieB. Here is why I am suspicious to help prop that up." And in both situations I was 100% sure that TownieB was town (first game it was my mason partner, this game it was me) which I think helped me spot it.

So, you witnessed me catch a scum player for exactly this kind of post before, what makes you dismiss this one as "honing in on the wrong things"?

I have a lot of thoughts on what went down overnight, but most of them are mean and fight-picking. I'm more interested now in trying to reset on Lukewarm, as I already know I don't want him eliminated, and I do want to see where he's going with his Titus case.

First the addendum to Bulge that I didn't see in my previous thread reading. This actually makes a fuckton of sense as to why he jumped so heavily on my line of questioning if he's town here. I'm not thrilled that it took as long as it did for him to draw the connection, and I still don't like that he interrupted the process anyways from a grumpy old lady perspective. I don't like in this game overall where I feel like I'm chivvying people toward town-looking actions. This isn't the place for me to drop wisdom from on high, but if you're town here, I would suggest considering that different players can do the same thing for different reasons. If it was an auto-scum tell, absolutely no one would ever do it. I can't refute your played experience with T3, but I suppose after this game you'll have another data point that demonstrates it's not a reliable scum tell, so congrats to you. (I'm also lowkey amused that since you thought the post came from Cabd initially, you put his scum play on the same level as T3's.)

I went through Lukewarm's ISO and cherry-picked out everything he's posted that doesn't stem from his pursuit of my question to Dunn and leaving out the opening posts that I thought were useless. I'm reading that to see what I see about his thought process once there's meat in the game that isn't penguin-flesh. Also reading this from a 'I want Lukewarm to be town here' perspective as a change of framing. Thoughts:

I don't hate his mechanics posts early on as much as I did. Some of this is hindsight that the changed wincon makes them less damaging, and it mirrors internal discussions from our hydra in places, plus as he pointed out earlier, yeah, his 'self-hammer' idea is in line with my ultimate conclusion when I was considering shard use post-wincon change.

Question for Lukewarm: Do you have a completed game here where you've seen bad use/reveal of mechanics stuff or overclaiming town torpedo the game for the town side?

More on the mechanics side, I tend to think that Lukewarm wouldn't post all of this about mechanics as scum while

pretending

not to know that scum can distribute shards. Someone(s?) said earlier than his scum game is clean and polished, and I find it unlikely he'd pretend not to know a singular mechanic. For Dunnstral, not knowing multiple mechanics felt shady. Here, for Lukewarm overlooking one thing seems more likely, and assuming it's genuine, I can't come up with a three-player scum team on this list where the alternate factional action wouldn't have come up in the PT pre-game/very early game.

I do like that he doesn't jump on AA9's mechanical misunderstanding in his 469. Given he doesn't have experience with her play, it would be easy for him to convincingly set her up as a scum read.

His talk with ManateeGal about his vote on us is interesting. Something else I'll note, tangential to my Lukewarm read, is that I pushed ManateeGirl into the idea that scumreading us was the only logical townie position. What's notable about her eventual agreement is that in that entire posting area between her first reads list and her long-awaited vote on us, she only ever goes down the path where our reads are. Lukewarm's vote is scummy, but the rest of the wagon is town. There's no real rethinking of whether there was more scum on our wagon instead.

[This is a divergence from reading Lukewarm here, but this is what I think I'm seeing from ManateeGirl all day, as a holdover from NQN and such. Looking back, her very first reaction to Dunnstral scumreading her was scummy as fuck. A lot of 'SHOW ME THE CASE' and then she switched tactics entirely. It was like she reset from her scum instincts and remembered back to what advice she'd been given for how to play when accused of being scum in the NQN dead thread, or like she consulted with a Mafia PT about how to proceed. And since then it's been a lot of 'wanting to make people like her reads, be polished, do whatever will make her come off as town' in contrast to...actually being town. It's my problem with unwnd's townread on her, that initial fireback at Dunnstral being disregarded and him going along with her very deliberate posting since. But I digress]

Then there's stuff on his reads on SF and AE. He talks about ffery not trying to pocket him.

Question for Lukewarm: do you think anyone this game

has

tried to pocket you?

His take on Sleez works for me. I remember feeling generally similarly about Sleez posting from outside the 'popular/what people want to hear' perspective and liking it even when I thought Sleez was wrong.

I'm breaking my framing a bit to comment on 790. I hate self-hypotheticals a bit because if you can think of a plan, you can think of another plan. So I don't entirely buy that if he was scum in this game he'd be pinning his hopes on a townread from Cabd. I think it's a possibility, but I also think he'd ditch it quickly if other opportunities showed up. Like...finding a reason to scumread the Cabd-slot. I think Lukewarm is a better player than that.

I like some of his take on Rhea. I don't think he's thinking about her posting style correctly, in that he seems to think that it's a playstyle choice whereas it's really a communication mode. I'm not liking his town read on Pooky in 910; I think Pooky's post there is very much incorrect and leaves himself a lot of wiggle room to ignore Rhea and then policy her. I do feel like he's being upfront about his ability or lack thereof to townbin her, and I think the paranoia is healthy. It's a far less placating approach than a lot of what I've seen, and I don't think Lukewarm is as upfront as scum.

The discussion of Lukewarm's surprise at not being immediately townread feels honest, but it doesn't persuade me. Looking back, I'm not seeing why he'd think his content up to the point where what he thought was Cabd jumping on him happened would merit a snap town read. After that things went off the rails regardless, but I can't tell if he thought he would be townread because he's town or because he thought he was putting on a gamefront that would fool ffery/Cabd. Doesn't move my read.

1300 pings. Lukewarm says he was trying to solve me in his initial exchange, but later on in the Bulge note he basically says he considered my initial question to Dunn a scumtell.

What do you mean by solve, figure me out or solidify your tell-based read?

If town, Luke's 1301 kind of scans assuming that we're treating our scum reads as linked. Which generally speaking I don't, and Cabd doesn't on a regular basis this early. It's a good point for not linking them. At this point I'm still not convinced that there aren't places where bussing wouldn't be useful to scum, even given the gamestate after the rules change, but it's less likely. This and subsequent posts discussing the issue with Spiffeh and ffery charitably feel like Lukewarm is making assumptions about good game play that are just wrong. Linking reads and locking in those links before a flip is a waste of effort and foolish regardless. Even if you think people look like partners, you can't wagon both at the same time, and how one wagon goes down has to influence your thinking. Plus there's generally a night's worth of actions in between to consider. I don't expect any two scum here to be that tightly linked in a playerlist of this caliber.

I begrudgingly get it though, having seen Cabd-solves where he has more scum reads ready to kill than he has bullets/elims/what have you for. I don't like it, but I can see the annoyed-town perspective.

Getting into the Titus material now.

I think 2343 is the most complete breakdown of it. And damned if I don't agree. Cabd is out on site visits today, but I know he thought your case was laid out well but hadn't read it (we had a fun night where I woke up screaming in pain in the middle of the night, it's a thing, and he said you'd posted about Titus). I think I see what you're seeing, and it reminds me of the same potential feelings of shame I have for a very old game, NY161, where someone claimed a cop guilty result, we eliminated the result for a town flip, and then somehow got talked into giving him another chance with ANOTHER claimed guilty the next day to the same town flip result. No, we didn't do it a third time, but it was too little too late for the town. I feel like the way this Titus timeline goes down, we're looking at having to use the shards town does control Day One and Day Two to power her up, all for the chance we get a confirmed town on her slot. Assuming scum doesn't block her, kill her target (by Night Two with three players out and up to three scum alive, they might be looking at only a six player pool for killing her purported target. And if she crumbs, that helps them too. What happens when Day Three hits and we don't have that promised confirmed-town-Titus? Do we give her another chance? Or do we eliminate her, knowing that we gave her the two shards it takes for her to count as a demon regardless of alignment?

This is probably very out of date with current game content at this point since it's taken me most of the morning in between work to type it up, but I'll put it out there. My conclusions, there are three:

1) I didn't want to eliminate Lukewarm today, and that holds true. Putting aside my own irritation, and coupling it with Cabd's lack of a strong read, his ISO outside of our dynamic is in a town range.

2) ManateeGirl looks worse than ever to me. I need to figure out whether there's a narrative there that's just in my head or if it's real based on game stances/posting.

3) The Titus case is persuasive. The big question I have is why she actually cut off her 'gambit' where she did with her wagon. We're dismissed as a justified vote on her, but Pooky is the one and only fish she thinks she caught before pulling in her bait. I realize that people scum reading us can easily dismiss it as a partner interaction, but it doesn't track from my knowledge, so what's her motivation?

--PA

P-edit: looks like there's time to consider the Titus case anyways. Sharding should be decided before anyone gets to L-2, I would say.

This post feels like it's out of your scum range (something I haven't actually seen, but still)

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If your assessment is incorrect, you should file an appeal with the Property tax Appeal Board whose website is located at http://www.ptab.illinois.gov/ or contact a local property legal firm.

[Snarky Fishes]

Anyway. Even without seeing that post, I was a lot less guarded with you last night. And that's kinda the way I want to progress, and I'll hold the snark if you will.

Spoiler: Less Guarded

I'm basically completely fucking lost, town reading Luke has done terrible things to my other reads, I'm grounding my wife form the game for at least a few days because she had a breakdown last night and I can't bear to see her get sucked into this meatgrinder.

I feel like we're gonna end up being the consensus elim here and that we'll flip and that 9 (well, 8) of you are going to have to pick up the pieces. And that if I was wrong about Luke, I could be wrong about nearly fucking anybody. Literally only you and notsci hydra are our rocks and if either or both of you are scum well fucking played you can have your tenet revenge. This entire game started off on the wrong foot and this feels like the game where I tunneled town pooky-alt until I got mislim'd for the GG.

I feel like terrible things are happening and I'm adrift, unable to stop them from happening or positively influence them. I imagine this is how unwnd felt in tenet before he replaced out, but I'm too stubborn and braindead to let myself do that.

So instead I'm here, taking stupid ass potshots where I feel I can make valuable data for those who will outlive me to sort through in hindsight.

Spoiler:

How is your Luke read affecting your other reads? ATM seeing him as town hasn't really impacted my other reads. read changes/strength changes to the extent they're happening aren't based on how I read him with one exception (below). I think I've been less town on Titus than you have though.

unwnd's stances around manatee and Luke have me a little spooked, having come around to town-Luke. But that's about unwnd's stances,

Spoiler: More

Luke being town means I'm out of room in the town bin. This isn't some secret "lol just a SK and 12 townies" game so there HAVE to be three scum, but damned if I can have any strong feelings on who it is. You may hate that I make the comparison, but I feel beat down like you and I were in Illict. Remember at one point when we discussed the possibility that we'd be early-elim'd and how much it would suck, but more importantly, how much it made us distrust those voting us? I've got 4 votes on me. They literally can't all be scum.

Maybe I'm giving somebody a pass that I shouldn't be. The "getting a pass and not body of work" list of my assorted reads is occupied by {Dunn, Unwnd, Rhea, Pooks} but like, I don't know what the fuck to do about the Rhea read any more. She apparently has seen my scum game directly, not that I ever recall playing with her specifically whatsoever, and thinks that this is it. I have no idea how to weigh that.

My townread on unwnd was due to pre-reveal contents, paired with "grumpy old man yells at the whale" credit. Do I like, drop that? I don't know. He seems to be wanting to "nail the big one" but then his actual votes are as a follower not a leader. There's a catharsis post-rant sitting in our drafts that will likely never leave it where penguin goes the fuck off about his behavior.

Pooky was trolled/bantered into giving game contents but once again, I'm not sure that his body of work is all that town outright. But I keep seeing flashes that make me nod along and go like "Yeah, that's probably town pooks"

Dunn is a more "traditional" read, whatever that means to you. We both liked his contents and in general, his tendency to be the more reserves one with great insights has been present once or twice this game.

I don't know if traditional is a good term. Nothing he's posted has bugged me (and town-Dunn has bugged me before -- wh13 being a strong example of that). This feels more like Yggdrasil-Dunn, where I just like pretty much everything he posts, whether I fully agree or not.

I generally don't write long rants. Unwnd pissed me off enough that I knocked off trying to work with a town read and moved on. And now I wonder if the townread should be as strong as it has been. That and my tinfoil issue.

I had issues with Pooky in ceph-game, feeling like he was meme-ing in lieu of content instead of in addition to or as part of content.

Here even the meme content is sporadic. :/

Anyway, none are on the same level as notsci (for me, but I think Bell's kinda in the same boat), but Dunn is very close.

[Snarky Fishes]

pedit sure, fine.

Also...

Spoiler:

I think even in this player list you're the player most likely to break the setup such that bork would have to modify something as weighty as an alternate wincon on the fly.

Who do you think could also do that in the amount of time it took?

There. that thought has materialized.

I would hope nearly ANY list of three names in this setup would be capable of "breaking the setup" depenign on what knowledge scum started with but I also take two major objections to this:

1: "Breaking the setup" is not something that Bork would literally change the game midgame for. Remember that surprise early loss in one of the Bork minis where scum had a bonus kill out of nowhere? Bork is not the type of mod to EVER just change the setup because one team or the other found a winning move. Think about it from a mod integrity POV. If it were a FGO setup or something I'd be writing my apologies posts but I sure as hell wouldn't completely change the rules midway into the game.

2: Why are we even assuming that "scumteam breaking the setup" would be the catalyst for the change, as opposed to a typo or misunderstanding of the game rules as initially reviewed by Syr being corrected?

It was the first thing that came to my mind. Maybe I'm wrong!

[Medea the Alien]

In my understanding, Cabd's scumgame is one in which he identifies weaknesses and winconditions in his team, proposes pathways to achieve those conditions, and aims to complete them with perfection. At least, that's how it was done in Tenet, is my understanding. The nuances of it are lost on me, but I also can tell from the way Cabd talks that Cabd is prideful too. Which is why I said earlier in the game that your hydra's switch, explicitly Cabd's, pre to post rule change set me off as a scum read because I felt Cabd was aiming for a certain kind of win condition, he'd plotted his course with his team, and post that, he needed to change his course, and that course required him to have more of a hand in things. So he came up with a good lie, and rode that into the sunset.

Obviously Penguin and I have different scumgames.

In my case, I generally play scum one day at a time. I have a bigger goals that I'm working towards, but I focus on maximizing the day's value as much as possible, even if that cuts off my options down the line. My early scum days are about pushing the boundaries of what will be acceptable without reversing thread opinion of me and my team as much as possible. If 100 is the limit, I'll aim to play the early days at 95 or so. Essentially, Xanatos Speed Chess. Every path cut off is another open that I can toy with and evaluate for potential wins. Aim to kill players RIGHT as they figure it out, not any earlier while they're still of use.


Penguin, on the other hand, is completely the opposite. She'll pick her specific endgame grouping she wants, then work her way backwards to plot a direct course for THAT specific path.

Obviously, game mechanics make things a little less simple. In tenet, for example, we tried to ignore the mechanics as much as possible, to prevent the town sided tree stumps from being a thing we agreed "no bus" and went all in.

[Annie Edison]

I’m not stepping in the line but I had the same concern spinning in my head.

[Medea the Alien]

"Plotting a course" is like the LEAST likely thing for me to do in any non-newbie scumgame. And even in enwbies, ehhhhhhhh not really.

[Dunnstral]

HURT: Annie Edison

This feels strange, and I don't like it.

I made a big ass case, and everyone who read is seemed to think it makes sense. I believe it got the stamp of approval from Bell, Ffery, Unwnd, I think a head of the dragons, Penguin (maybe cabd too, was a little more unclear), and notty

Suddenly, that person is not going to be one of the leading wagons? I smell foul play.

My vote it not moving off of titus, unless someone wants to look back at Titus's behavior around where I was making my case, and make it make any damn sense

I read the Titus case. I can see her as town regardless, thoug the case is plausible.

[Annie Edison]

Note my last post was in response to “who here would break the setup”

[Medea the Alien]

"Plotting a course" is like the LEAST likely thing for me to do in any non-newbie scumgame. And even in enwbies, ehhhhhhhh not really.

That said I was really hoping somebody ELSE would reply with this data instead of me, but I suppose you can ask them to confirm its accuracy instead.

[Snarky Fishes]

I’m not stepping in the line but I had the same concern spinning in my head.

:/

What post is this in response to?

I'm sure it's a me problem and I'm probably going to get annoying.

Note my last post was in response to “who here would break the setup”

whew...thanks!

[Annie Edison]

No, ffery I realized right after I submitted it that i forgot again

[Lady Lambdadelta]

In my understanding, Cabd's scumgame is one in which he identifies weaknesses and winconditions in his team, proposes pathways to achieve those conditions, and aims to complete them with perfection. At least, that's how it was done in Tenet, is my understanding. The nuances of it are lost on me, but I also can tell from the way Cabd talks that Cabd is prideful too. Which is why I said earlier in the game that your hydra's switch, explicitly Cabd's, pre to post rule change set me off as a scum read because I felt Cabd was aiming for a certain kind of win condition, he'd plotted his course with his team, and post that, he needed to change his course, and that course required him to have more of a hand in things. So he came up with a good lie, and rode that into the sunset.

Obviously Penguin and I have different scumgames.

In my case, I generally play scum one day at a time. I have a bigger goals that I'm working towards, but I focus on maximizing the day's value as much as possible, even if that cuts off my options down the line. My early scum days are about pushing the boundaries of what will be acceptable without reversing thread opinion of me and my team as much as possible. If 100 is the limit, I'll aim to play the early days at 95 or so. Essentially, Xanatos Speed Chess. Every path cut off is another open that I can toy with and evaluate for potential wins. Aim to kill players RIGHT as they figure it out, not any earlier while they're still of use.


Penguin, on the other hand, is completely the opposite. She'll pick her specific endgame grouping she wants, then work her way backwards to plot a direct course for THAT specific path.

Obviously, game mechanics make things a little less simple. In tenet, for example, we tried to ignore the mechanics as much as possible, to prevent the town sided tree stumps from being a thing we agreed "no bus" and went all in.

"Plotting a course" is like the LEAST likely thing for me to do in any non-newbie scumgame. And even in enwbies, ehhhhhhhh not really.

[Medea the Alien]

I assume that's a "Okay so why did you do the more plotty heavy stuff in tenet" query?

[Snarky Fishes]

"Plotting a course" is like the LEAST likely thing for me to do in any non-newbie scumgame. And even in enwbies, ehhhhhhhh not really.

That said I was really hoping somebody ELSE would reply with this data instead of me, but I suppose you can ask them to confirm its accuracy instead.

No games as scum-morph or scum-with-cabd in the recent past, but there is very much a seat-of-the-pants feel playing with scum-cabd.

HOWEVER:

Dangle a shiny enough shiny in front of him and it WILL be something he'll make risky plays to reach.

The Achievement Unlocked micro with its reward of a scum daykill if we did enough insanely risky plays for it (claim scum in a game post and a lolhammer being the main ones).