Newbie 2076 [Game Over]

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm not sold on T3 being Town yet. Then bring in standard stuff from Site meta and that's not really a reason to TR them as it is NAI.

I just don't know why they are voting me since they don't explain it. T3 seems to have completely dropped the site meta talk, I think. He might come back to it or he might not. In any case, we need to decided what to do there. I'm almost inclined to think we don't have a Tracker at this point given talking about it isn't really doing anything but just causing the players to spin in circles.

[LicketyQuickety]

What is everyone's experience playing Mafia?

I've been playing on MS semi-regularly since I joined.

VOTE: Margot

You're forgetting that the D/P remakes are coming out later this year. Also, "honestly" tell.

P.S. Hockey is town on vibes.

What do you have against honesty?

It's nothing major, but it's simply that scum sometimes have a tendency to overuse words that they think will "sound" more towny.

Wait, was the Honestly tell a legitimate read?

[LicketyQuickety]

Reads List:

Town:
Hockey

Lean Town:
Clasko
Astra

Null:
T3
Egix96
alstro

Lean Scum:
Roden
Margot

[alstroemerial]

due to them having a similar-sounding name to Astra)
I need slightly more data on Turtwig and Astra to formulate a read, but mor

This is fine with me also coming right up as I'm catching up

[LicketyQuickety]

Wait, was the Honestly tell a legitimate read?

I thought it was a joke...

[alstroemerial]

Okey dokey, here is where I am at.

I am getting strong town sense from Margot, contrary to what some others have said. It seems like she is really trying to sort -- some internal back and forth is good. I really liked 53 although I didn't check the math. It reads to me like a newbie who is really determined to put in the work.

Hockey is a town lean for me, though I disagree with the argument in 94 that withholding information is

always

anti-town. If someone is trying to bait a trap or is an investigation role who doesn't want to share results until they have a guilty, etc, there are some cases where that's good to hold back. If T3 was trying to do a spicy town play, which is totally T3, then not spelling out the details is beneficial. But the way that he's making his argument reads town, even if I disagree with it. Although I just realized it could be scum trying to get info on what the play is. Still not enough to change my read though.

T3 is probably town for the exact reason that Hockey outlined -- it's a huge gambit for scum to do right out the gate, so it seems unlikely.

Roden is null. 77 struck me as weird as well, but I don't see why scum would town lock T3 after that risky play. Then again, he then went on to walk back that town lock in 91.

Clasko and Egix are null.

The Astra slot is a sliiiiight scum lean because even with so few posts and the swift replace out, it seemed like she might have been jumping on the LQ wagon, and her RVS vote was also a wagon.

LQ -- I get a bad sense from 125. It reads a bit like complaining about getting scumread with a liiitle smidgeon of omgus, especially considering they imply that T3's gambit isn't scummy in 57 before bringing in a little more setup speculation.

The main thing that gives me pause is the very fact that LQ is a wagon already. It could be a quick and easy miselim. I also have no interest in pushing anyone to E-1 right now, so I'll leave my vote on the Astra slot for now to put a little extra fire on whoever joins in.

[LicketyQuickety]

T3 is probably town for the exact reason that Hockey outlined -- it's a huge gambit for scum to do right out the gate, so it seems unlikely.

Why is it Townie given it is Site Meta, which I have already talked about. If you go through other newbie games, I am sure it will be brought up early in the game. Fact check me on that.

[LicketyQuickety]

LQ -- I get a bad sense from 125. It reads a bit like complaining about getting scumread with a liiitle smidgeon of omgus, especially considering they imply that T3's gambit isn't scummy in 57 before bringing in a little more setup speculation.

It's not a gambit. It's literally site meta. Fact check me on that. I'm not even SRing T3. I don't know why he is SRing me, sure, and I think it's normal to not like that.

[T3]

Okey dokey, here is where I am at.

I am getting strong town sense from Margot, contrary to what some others have said. It seems like she is really trying to sort -- some internal back and forth is good. I really liked 53 although I didn't check the math. It reads to me like a newbie who is really determined to put in the work.

Hockey is a town lean for me, though I disagree with the argument in 94 that withholding information is

always

anti-town. If someone is trying to bait a trap or is an investigation role who doesn't want to share results until they have a guilty, etc, there are some cases where that's good to hold back. If T3 was trying to do a spicy town play, which is totally T3, then not spelling out the details is beneficial. But the way that he's making his argument reads town, even if I disagree with it. Although I just realized it could be scum trying to get info on what the play is. Still not enough to change my read though.

T3 is probably town for the exact reason that Hockey outlined -- it's a huge gambit for scum to do right out the gate, so it seems unlikely.

Roden is null. 77 struck me as weird as well, but I don't see why scum would town lock T3 after that risky play. Then again, he then went on to walk back that town lock in 91.

Clasko and Egix are null.

The Astra slot is a sliiiiight scum lean because even with so few posts and the swift replace out, it seemed like she might have been jumping on the LQ wagon, and her RVS vote was also a wagon.

LQ -- I get a bad sense from 125. It reads a bit like complaining about getting scumread with a liiitle smidgeon of omgus, especially considering they imply that T3's gambit isn't scummy in 57 before bringing in a little more setup speculation.

The main thing that gives me pause is the very fact that LQ is a wagon already. It could be a quick and easy miselim. I also have no interest in pushing anyone to E-1 right now, so I'll leave my vote on the Astra slot for now to put a little extra fire on whoever joins in.

Roden knows exactly what is going on and he is locktown for that.

[HockeyFan]

Okey dokey, here is where I am at.

I am getting strong town sense from Margot, contrary to what some others have said. It seems like she is really trying to sort -- some internal back and forth is good. I really liked 53 although I didn't check the math. It reads to me like a newbie who is really determined to put in the work.

Hockey is a town lean for me, though I disagree with the argument in 94 that withholding information is

always

anti-town. If someone is trying to bait a trap or is an investigation role who doesn't want to share results until they have a guilty, etc, there are some cases where that's good to hold back. If T3 was trying to do a spicy town play, which is totally T3, then not spelling out the details is beneficial. But the way that he's making his argument reads town, even if I disagree with it. Although I just realized it could be scum trying to get info on what the play is. Still not enough to change my read though.

T3 is probably town for the exact reason that Hockey outlined -- it's a huge gambit for scum to do right out the gate, so it seems unlikely.

Roden is null. 77 struck me as weird as well, but I don't see why scum would town lock T3 after that risky play. Then again, he then went on to walk back that town lock in 91.

Clasko and Egix are null.

The Astra slot is a sliiiiight scum lean because even with so few posts and the swift replace out, it seemed like she might have been jumping on the LQ wagon, and her RVS vote was also a wagon.

LQ -- I get a bad sense from 125. It reads a bit like complaining about getting scumread with a liiitle smidgeon of omgus, especially considering they imply that T3's gambit isn't scummy in 57 before bringing in a little more setup speculation.

The main thing that gives me pause is the very fact that LQ is a wagon already. It could be a quick and easy miselim. I also have no interest in pushing anyone to E-1 right now, so I'll leave my vote on the Astra slot for now to put a little extra fire on whoever joins in.

Err I wanna town read this just for having /generally/ the same reads as me which is lame but shhh

My current read list is looking like

Town Leans:
Alstro
MargotRosa
Clakso

Null: Egix, Lickety,T3(still dont know what this dude is going for),

Scum Lean: Roden/Astra

[alstroemerial]

Maybe it is general site meta, but I haven't seen it this early in any of the games I've played or read in Rome :/

[LicketyQuickety]

Maybe it is general site meta, but I haven't seen it this early in any of the games I've played or read in Rome :/

IDK why that would matter tbh. It's Null for me. It's normal for people to debate this, but it does sound like it's been going on kinda long. That's why I think we don't have an applicable setup.

[T3]

*groans*

[HockeyFan]

t3, can you give some reads ty(like a full reads list)

[Roden]

Should we just tell them what you're doing T3? We're just drawing focus away from scum hunting atm.

[MargotRosa]

Ok, my current reads list. Apologies for text wall

Lean Town:

Currently, I think both T3 and Roden lean town. The more I read through the logs, the more I second guessed my initial scum read. The three minutes between T3's first posts, and the post to out tracker #22 definitely tripped my senses a lot, as it felt like brief time spent hatching a scheme, but that could just as easily come to what Roden is talking about, which I think I may have actually worked out. Roden feels like more of a wildcard than T3 at this point, but nothing that really makes me go one way or the other. Glad that I stuck to it a bit longer than warranted though, because it's definitely given good info.

Hockey: Hard to say, but slight town lean. Points all make sense, but also could point to a long con (see, for instance, lots of early, aimless banter [#7, #8, #13, #14, #16, #18], and later planting the idea that scum lay low early game [#62, #122], which could easily be a very base ploy to take heat off).

Null

Egix: Has laid low most of the game. [post=#p12939319]111[/post] makes me want to give him benefit of the doubt.

Astra is totally null for me atm. I think the fact she had to drop out early means posts will be hard to interpret. Nothing to go on, and I'll treat as a fresh slate when slot is refilled.

Lean scum

Clasko: Had very minimal engagement early on. Dropped in at #50 through #52 to post 3 nothing comments, with a followup meh reflection on RQS at 54. Seemed pretty cool with T3’s tracker idea at #55, but then seemed open to a d1 elimination for T3 in #118. Has a scum read on Hockey, which is interesting #115. Reasoning seems pretty flaky, when there are much better reasons to scum read him imo. Highest conf is on LQ, purely for the ordering of his slots, which blows my mind.

LQ: Way more interesting than Hockey's immediate question at T3 for the tracker play [post=#p12936791]#23[/post] which wasn't even really a callout, just a one word question that was left for several posts and almost five hours, was LQ resurrecting by restating the question [post=#p12937132]#32[/post]. Takes the heat off of you by shifting it onto someone who can be named as the instigator. Extra odd given that LQ later said that they knew tracker reveal was site meta, leading one to think that they would know exactly why T3 wanted to reveal tracker (see #80, #132). On top of that, they have been incredibly defensive throughout d1 (wanted Roden to go through past game logs to see their history of RQS v RVS in #38 and #39, defensive at Astra's veeeery loose scum read #68, defensive about T3 and Roden explanations as to why they voted #125). Attack on Roden for not sharing info, looks extra weird in this context (see #87), as I think it makes perfect sense as to why Roden wouldn't want to share info.

Alstro had minimal engagement early on. Only non-obvious read in #130 is a strong town read on me, and that could very easily be getting onside a slot who is making hard claims early in the game. Also, reading everyone as null or above other than two players already pointed out as behaving in an obviously odd way (Astra and LQ) feels like a safe play, especially when Astra is being subbed out and therefore justifying an opinion change later on. I have also been reading into the read lists a bit too much probably, but they line up for Alstro and LQ to be scum team (Alstro mentions a very loose scum read on LQ that's easy to walk back, but useful to make them seem like town if LQ gets smoked).

[MargotRosa]

VOTE: LQ

[MargotRosa]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: LQ e-1

[MargotRosa]

Really need to work out how to use the post tag lol

[LicketyQuickety]

Hi, Margot. Can I ask why defensiveness is a Scum tell? I've been accused of being defensive many many times as Town so that is not a good reason to SR me (or anyone for that matter as that tell has been demolished long ago).

Next I would say that while I do remember something about claiming roles it's been a year + since I have played and when I played the Newbie setup had recently been changed IIRC. So while I did remember there was some sort of claiming involved for a particular setup, I was not sure it was Tracker or how the ins and outs of that work (which is why I asked.)

Also, I am assuming you are saying it is Scummy for me to bring this up 5 hours later for some reason. Can I ask why that is? IIRC, the question had not been answered yet.

As far as your read with T3 and Roden are concerned, IDK why you are TRing them for basically going along with site meta? IDK why Roden is doing, but I get the sense that you may be trusting that analysis of the Tracker claim thing is an indication that they are Town and I don't particularly think bringing up site meta is terribly AI.

I don't understand your Hockey read at all. You say you have them as Town Lean, but the reasons for that seem extremely lacking and actually point to the opposite conclusion IMO.

Your reasons for SRing Clasko are not bad, but like, this is what I already explained about reading that player. They seem to be using logic in some parts and being counterintuitive in other parts. This is not inherently Scummy as some people are this way naturally. That is why I Null read them that way - because it may take time to develop a concrete read on a player like that.

I hope you don't consider this post "defensive" because I have tried to be reasonable here.

[LicketyQuickety]

Really need to work out how to use the post tag lol

Code: Select all

[post]x[/post]

[alstroemerial]

Since I also took issue with a defensive tone in my reads post, I would say that being overly defensive is suspicious because, up to a point, town should be okay with being suspected — it helps other people develop their reads and everyone solve. Scum OTOH are often much more wary about how they’re perceived and more eager to satisfy town or take down any suspicions as soon and thoroughly as possible.

I say up to a point because, in a case like yours now that you’re a E-1, it becomes more troubling to town because you want to avoid getting mislimmed entirely.

I do agree that Roden’s agreement with T3 in and of itself isn’t AI — I will say that I’m also more confident in my T3 read and think there’s no reason for the two of them to do this as a team, so there is a universe where Roden is pocketing. Still I think it’s more likely for Roden to just also be an eager town.

[LicketyQuickety]

Since I also took issue with a defensive tone in my reads post, I would say that being overly defensive is suspicious because, up to a point, town should be okay with being suspected — it helps other people develop their reads and everyone solve. Scum OTOH are often much more wary about how they’re perceived and more eager to satisfy town or take down any suspicions as soon and thoroughly as possible.

That might be okay in theory, but it simply doesn't work in practice.

[MargotRosa]

Hi, Margot. Can I ask why defensiveness is a Scum tell? I've been accused of being defensive many many times as Town so that is not a good reason to SR me (or anyone for that matter as that tell has been demolished long ago).

It's not a sure thing. But experience (admittedly, in chat room and IRL formats) has shown me that there are different kinds of reactions to being read as scum. Often (not always) when townies get read as scum, their reaction is usually not pointing out why the read is baseless (if it is baseless, that will come out anyway, and isn't a read to worry about). Scum will usually (but again, not always) treat it as if it's a personal attack, and get annoyed that people are pointing the finger at them for no reason. When Town behaves like the latter, it's often because the read actually has some merit, and they need to explain why whatever it is that made them look scummy occurred.

It's not hard and fast rule, which is why you aren't SL for me right now, and why I edited my vote to e-1 to make sure you couldn't be hammered by people trying to hammer (I think now that Astra has left, it'll need three more while my e-1 sticks).

Next I would say that while I do remember something about claiming roles it's been a year + since I have played and when I played the Newbie setup had recently been changed IIRC. So while I did remember there was some sort of claiming involved for a particular setup, I was not sure it was Tracker or how the ins and outs of that work (which is why I asked.)

That's fair enough.

Also, I am assuming you are saying it is Scummy for me to bring this up 5 hours later for some reason. Can I ask why that is? IIRC, the question had not been answered yet.

It was more a personal reflection on the post. Cards on the table, I am about to go into eighth week of hard CoViD lockdown in Sydney atm, and have some pretty hardcore insomnia, so I am definitely liable to read into things a bit too much. But I thought it was at least as interesting, if not more so, than Hockey's original question, because it resurrected the question when it had gone dormant in a way that had plausible deniability.

As far as your read with T3 and Roden are concerned, IDK why you are TRing them for basically going along with site meta? IDK why Roden is doing, but I get the sense that you may be trusting that analysis of the Tracker claim thing is an indication that they are Town and I don't particularly think bringing up site meta is terribly AI.

I agree that following a meta isn't reason enough to TR anyone. I'm TRing them because of the way they handled my initial SR of T3, which reads to me as Town. That's gut instinct as much as anything else, which is why I'm not locking anything, and said that Roden especially was a weak TR.

I don't understand your Hockey read at all. You say you have them as Town Lean, but the reasons for that seem extremely lacking and actually point to the opposite conclusion IMO.

My read on Hockey comes with caveats for sure, that are very contingency based (like the long con I mentioned). I think their posts read very town otherwise, particularly the keen questioning, but willingness to adapt and change based on evidence that's brought up. Again, not a lock, just a slight lean.

Your reasons for SRing Clasko are not bad, but like, this is what I already explained about reading that player. They seem to be using logic in some parts and being counterintuitive in other parts. This is not inherently Scummy as some people are this way naturally. That is why I Null read them that way - because it may take time to develop a concrete read on a player like that.

These are fair comments. I just think the contradiction between 55 and 118, what I consider to be a pretty flaky read of Hockey in 115, minimal engagement at game start (see 50, 51, 52 and 54), along with giving you highest conf based on how you ordered slots felt like it leaned scum.

I hope you don't consider this post "defensive" because I have tried to be reasonable here.

It's all good. I'm not trying to attack you as a person or anything. Game is fun thus far. I'm just putting my reads out there.

Also 145 <3

[HockeyFan]

licketys at E-1 lol wtf? I think from Lickety's reactions to being put at e-1 is town+. They arent panicking like scum would nor are they doing damage control(ie giving some last min scumreads to distance from thier maf partner)