mini theme 2229: MBOS 13 schweppes' pulpy potions daya 5

[T3]

Emperor what do you think about Datisi’s twin brother claiming they disagree on Datisi’s take on me?

Twin brother?

That's cool. I have my own thoughts on their off threas discussion of the game

Does Flea The Magician have an alignment preference?

I don't remember this but I imagine the hydra doesn't like scum collectively.

I don't want to eliminate them on D1 even if they're scum tho. <3

I would recommend reading post 1 before you continue claiming that bingle has scumclaimed.

I have read it and I still think that Bingle is scumclaiming for a very specific reason that I shall not elaborate on until Bingle elaborates on the details of his role PM.

That said even if he didn't scumclaim I'd be voting him here anyway because I legit think that Bingle's just scum here.

I refuse to sit cozily in anyone's pocket!

In any case of the matter, saying I dislike scum is like saying a frat boi hates alcohol because they are being forced to drink with his brothers during the weekday, after coming off a party the past weekend and another coming up the next and oh yeah! Said brother has a project due!

Why do you think bingle is scum, slip aside. What are your thoughts on the 1v1s that have already happened at this point?

Between emperor and ta vera?

Between norwee and datisi?

I find it hard to beleive you didnt come away with a read on any of those 4 mentioned

Uh

Gaize

Im still here, i just fused with Flea!

Hello new person who is definitely not mom. I’d give you a summary and talk, but it’s 4 AM and I should probably get *some* sleep. Emperor/ta Vera/GCB probably most valuable Isis, or you could cheat with mastina’s catch-up.

Isis? Where?

Even if they weren't, im pretty sure im not letting datisi go for tooo long.

someone's still traumatized?

-D

N-no

Defintely not.

I definitely am not impacted by the sweet nothings you whispered in my ear during our time as neighbors


Up to page 20.

Not gonna dig too deep with mechanics myself but I think bingle has a solid idea, I dont get the sr on them.

Missing mastina a bit here.

Onwards to the present!

The part where Momrangal asks mastina what reads she has give me bad vibes but nothing to vote over.

[T3]

Titus is twisting my awkward attempt at a joke into literally saying that I was scum deliberately messing up the VC because I was

afraid VCA would catch me

.

[Dwlee99]

Mad cap

[Titus]

I am going to have real life changes in availability due to starting a very long jury trial starting in late October. It should last through November. I have a lot to do to prepare for it. I don’t think it will be VLA status just more skimming style.

[mastina]

like if bingle is actually scum because he has ingredients and not potions, and that's not listed in the pm's, don't you think he, as someone who is famous for mech solving, would have noticed that none of the role pm's in the original game or this game were just ingredients? so either he's telling the truth or he's making shit up that he knows people will call him out on because ??? and if he's telling the truth, what are the odds that he wouldn't know that that was a scumclaim?

The scumclaim was more in insinuating there was a mechanic present that isn't actually present; claiming an ingredient as if we could use an ingredient to craft a potion when there is no such mechanic. Beyond that mishap, there's how I genuinely don't believe that a potionless individual as town would have an ingredient in their role pm. Heck, even in Bingle's attempt to clear himself of the scumclaim:

@mod: would it be possible for you to generate a potionless sample town pm and a sample town pm with two pain potions and a potion of harmography? If possible, could you generate the same sample pms for scum, redacting non public information as necessary?

sample potionless town PM:

Spoiler:

welcome to mystery box of silver 13! you are a

townie

, however you do not have any potions. to simulate part of the potion drinking experience, we have provided you with a

dangerous crate

full of

cracked and broken potion bottles

. however you are not permitted to do anything with this crate because it is

stolen

from the

Schweppes Broken Potion Bottle Factory

who have a

warrant

.

you win when all threats to the town are eliminated. please confirm by telling me your alignment & promising not to tell Schweppes about the stolen bottles

Do you see potion ingredients in this potionless PM?

I don't.

What I think happened is that there was a mention of ingredients outside of Bingle's available potions as scum--either as part of his genuine role PM or in a fakeclaim. And that Bingle thought that the mention of ingredients there was a mechanic in town PMs when it isn't. A perspective slip born from a scum role PM, and one that is exactly the mistake a mechanical scum player can make.

Just because a player is a mechanical player does not make them omniscient when it comes to mechanics. They can take precautions, but they can make mistakes from faulty assumptions, poor mod clarification, etc. There's numerous ways for a mechanical player to make genuine mechanical mistakes where their mechanical prowess rather than serving as an asset actually backfires. And I believe that Bingle's ingredients with no potions claim is precisely that.

However, even beyond the scumslip: I'm like 80% sure that this is Bingle's scumplay anyway. No scumslip necessary, just off of his dayplay.

Why?

Because I have a fairly good idea of how Bingle plays as town on D1 specifically, and this is very much not how Bingle plays D1 as town. In fact the very things people are townreading him for are the things that make him be scum, here. (Think an old mastina flowchart tell of sorts. If Bingle looks strongly town on D1, it's because he's scum.)

Obviously I can elaborate on this if needed but suffice to say I'm never not voting Bingle. (I mayyyyyyyyyy compromise on a different scumread if needed but I really don't want Bingle to get away here.)

[T3]

Could you elaborate on what specifically he's doing?

[Bingle]

First:

My role PM had poison specifically called an ingredient, in lieu of the crate of bottles.

Second:

Yes. Given the information from my role PM, I DID assume there was an additional mechanic of potion ingredient combination. That's pretty self evident. Entirely lacking in your questioning is why that's a specifically scum misunderstanding.

Third:

Yes. I've explicitly been using tools from my scum toolbox. Because I'm not a shitty player and my scum toolbox and town toolbox are remarkably similar toolboxes. (FWIW, my town toolbox is a subset of my scum toolbox, because there are some things that are effective as scum (laying false associatives, for example) that just don't have a town use). Your argument is about as relevant as arguing that me buddying someone is scum indicative, when more than most the way to read me is by looking at my results. Ask yourself this: Am I driving this thread in a direction where it is easier or harder for town to solve it?

Now that we've got that out of the way:

What do you make of Titus/RCE/Dwlee?

Dwlee specifically has been giving me flashbacks to Draft, where he was scum defending me from Titus in lieu of defending himself, and I want to know if you see the same thing.

[T3]

Bingle is telling the truth about the potion regardless of alignment.

[mastina]

Bingle could be too easy so i’n gonna think about it more.

Bingle's already had some people defend him, and let me ask you this:

Bingle (4):

mastina, The Emperor, Dwlee99, NorwegianboyEE

Who of these four is scum?
If the answer you come up with is "none of them", then

Why does a wagon at L-2 with three scum in the game have no scum in it?

But if there's no scum on the wagon...then you should be wondering why there's no scum on Bingle's wagon.

Right, i wanted to get back to this. While i think you’re making an decent point and the wagon composition might in fact be all town. (I’m kinda townreading Dwlee just for being so different to his scumgame with hardly trying to appear town at all)

I still don’t think it’s utterly damning, and i liked his posts from that point onwards and i agree with T3’s point of: "Bingle should be better at mechanics as scum to know better than to claim something that looks utterly scummy." Therefore i can only assume he did so because it is real, and Schadd felt like adding an miller type role that looks scummy by default but is town.

Sure, it's not utterly damning!

It is however still evidence against Bingle.

Evidence which adds up.

Bingle got to L-2, and with a fairly high chance of no scum on that wagon.
Bingle's claim is one that is incredibly likely to have come from scum.
Bingle's play here does not match any of his towngames for D1.

Any one of these wouldn't be damning.
But having them all, is.

[T3]

Mad cap

And that, my friend, is why we should lim Titus.

[T3]

Bimgle seems like the perfect metadive candidate *rubs hands*

[mastina]

Bingle is also aware that as a semi-nightless setup, losing a scum member, even a functionally powerless one, is a fairly significant blow and he'd have tried harder to avoid the yeet. Although you could argue that his posting was him trying to avoid the yeet.

I am in fact arguing precisely that, actually.

Well, close enough to that.

Bingle has never been this town as town on D1. He is, very deliberately, very specifically, putting in more effort than normal.

His mechsolving is nai, sure. But I'm not bothered by the mechsolve work he put in. He'd put in that mechsolve work regardless of his alignment.

What I more mean is the likes of this:

All of these lines of interaction seem to me like they're aimed at going no where. You've got the noncommital question about a 'townslip' that has already been called out (It wasn't a townslip, btw, it was a question scumNorwee could also have had), a "That's NAI.", generic comments about nothing (meta can be good), and a nothingburger response to Norwee's meta. Also, the mechstuff, even if prompted.

It feels more like she wants to be seen as doing something more than actually wanting to do something.

This is a level of hard push that is rare from Bingle as town--not impossible, but rare. The reason why? He said it himself:

OTOH, I'm in a lobby that has 0 names I'm amazing at reading.

Bingle doesn't have an amazing ability at reading names in this lobby, so the strong push on ta vera is out of place.

As far as towncasing, I've spoken a little about Emp, but I suppose I could go into detail.

DR Green has been waffling, but not in a way that makes it seem like they're willing to take any side in an argument. They have consistently had the most salient opinions on IGA fmpov and the things they've poked at all seem to be going somewhere (contrast ta vera). 109 for example looked like Dats was actually trying to find motivation. 144 is an admittedly weak push, but when asked about it Dats didn't back down and elaborated on his thoughts. There was a train of logic behind the push AND the followthrough to actually try to get discussion going from it. And then he went and turned the confrontation into a chance at reading me, not an accusation but an honest attempt at reaching out.

125 was also fairly town in that it's something I don't think scum thinks to fake. If scum is going to put the effort into pushing lurkers, I'd expect it to be on a lurker that actually exists in the game. "But Bingle," you say, "The fact that Dats thought Dunn WAS in the game makes that NAI!" Sure. But scum also doesn't make that post having realized he isn't. Scum either drops the Dunnstral case anyway and we all point and laugh and say "Silly Datisi, there's no Dunn in this game, you must be town." or scum just leaves the whole thing alone and doesn't post it at all. The former would be better for optics and the latter would be better for effort. Instead, Datisi is being naturally open with his approach to the thread, meaning he doesn't have the intention of hiding things.

Teal Dear:

GCB has consistently shown a town approach to the game.

This is a second read that Bingle has gone out of his way to give--on D1. The read on ta vera was already a stretch and this stretches it even further. Bingle is usually far more, for lack of better terminology, reserved when it comes to reads. He doesn't usually go in this much depth. Once was already unusual. Twice even more so.

The main things I like from Emp, along with his back and forth with ta vera which went over several posts and mostly boiled down to prompting her for actual content while she was catching up. I disagree that 8 was town indicative (Norwee is smart enough to ask non incriminating setup clarification questions publicly as scum) but the thought process that it would be town indicative isn't an unreasonable one. Further, the thought process of "I think thing X is town, Person Y thinks thing X is town, and I don't see a reason for Person Y to point out that thing X is town" is altogether far more towny than the generic "I think thing X is town and Person Y thinks thing X is town". It shows a level of paranoia as to GCB's motivations that I think is unlikely to be faked by scum as a throwaway read in the early days.

The wrongmeta application to me similarly makes sense. DNC 2 was one of my only real recent scumgames (the only other one that pops into mind is the game about Russia and nukes where I repped into a literally solved gamestate and cried a little that I didn't get to play scum with Ali for longer) and he's 100% right that my entrance there was very different to my entrance here. Comparatively I have quite a few recent towngames that are more in line with this game. He didn't take into account that DNC 2 I mostly avoided mechspeak because the majority of the game had just had the mech speak conversation and thus didn't need it again, as I pointed out by telling him to look at the contemporary game of lovers and losers 2 where I didn't engage in mechspeak because we accidentally broke the game and had to reroll based on leveraging mod info to locktown a player. (Which, to be fair, was 50% my fault and 50% llamafluff's fault.) In both cases I didn't mechspeak because I already had.

Still though, his conclusions were supported by the given evidence, which he definitely went to go find, and he didn't appear to be blowing smoke up my ass (which would be unlikely from someone who meta'd me as I'm LESS likely to townread people who townread me). The waffling on me seems like genuine cogdis where he's trying to reconcile two different opinions and can't quite line them up, which is very hard to fake well as scum.

But then he does it a third time.

I frankly do not believe that Bingle as town cares this much and puts this much effort in as town. Not from a player who in the past, as town, has repeatedly told me over multiple games something to the effect of "I am lazy on D1", so to speak. Bingle as town does not effort this much. He doesn't get these strong of reads, described this strongly. As town, Bingle is far more "reactive", but in this game Bingle is being proactive. You can see this in full effect by taking a look at his iso here. His cases in that game, such as they were, were pretty exclusively one-liners. The closest he got to cases not one-liners was him giving quotes (mostly in spoilers) to give context and elaborating on statements he had already previously made. Very very reactive.

The same holds true for this game, too--Bingle was fairly casual and reactive in nature, rather than proactive and serious.

And the same holds true for this game as well--Bingle was casual and reactive. His posts were short and usually one-liners with little in the way of casework done to look town.

Every time Bingle has been town has been similar. Fairly casual, lighthearted, and reactive. Giving reads and reasons but not bothering with a proper readslist with detailed lengthy explanations on players.

The fact that he's doing so in this game is, explicitly, because he is scum.

[RCEnigma]

I also feel T3's attempt to fuck up the VCs was scummy as hell.

You're in too deep Titus.

sRCE is townish for this.

???

Okay, maybe the bad takes here are enough to mean they're scum ones

VOTE: T3

I know I'm bombarding you here, but I'd also like elaboration on this

Perhaps I worded that badly. He jumped to defend me from a bad push. That doesn't make him town but it's a reason that contributes to him being towny.

Err kind of. More like Titus was misrepping the action. I didn't think you were actively messing with the VCs just pointing out that the VC was incorrect.

Titus would be sensitive to that kind of play so it's not an inherently scummy misrep but it's not something to push as scummy onto your slot.

I'm more interested in why emperor thought that sequence was scummy on both ends.

[T3]

From a brief skim og Bingle's meta it seems the only big diference is the amount of contenthe puts out. Scum!Bingle in DQ2 didn't post walls on players explaining his reads and most of his contentis relation to reads were bad one-liners. In comparison, town Bingle in ODM usually gave good and well thought out reasons for reads and quoted the specific posts he was reading players for. Town Bingle in Aliensitter fluffed a lot more but much of his content was the same as ODM and it only increased as the game continued. Conclusion from these 3 games: Bingle is probably town but I'll look at more of his games.

[RCEnigma]

Mastina excluding the depth what do you think about bingles read consistency?

I'm kind of already biased on rep in since his most effort push was on my slot as far as I've read but it's more like a set of parameters for scum from his pov that fit my predecessor and dwlee (I agree on the latter). But I don't know if it's out of his scumrange since I don't have much experience with scum!bingle outside of bastard games.

[T3]

Bingle is also aware that as a semi-nightless setup, losing a scum member, even a functionally powerless one, is a fairly significant blow and he'd have tried harder to avoid the yeet. Although you could argue that his posting was him trying to avoid the yeet.

I am in fact arguing precisely that, actually.

Well, close enough to that.

Bingle has never been this town as town on D1. He is, very deliberately, very specifically, putting in more effort than normal.

His mechsolving is nai, sure. But I'm not bothered by the mechsolve work he put in. He'd put in that mechsolve work regardless of his alignment.

What I more mean is the likes of this:

All of these lines of interaction seem to me like they're aimed at going no where. You've got the noncommital question about a 'townslip' that has already been called out (It wasn't a townslip, btw, it was a question scumNorwee could also have had), a "That's NAI.", generic comments about nothing (meta can be good), and a nothingburger response to Norwee's meta. Also, the mechstuff, even if prompted.

It feels more like she wants to be seen as doing something more than actually wanting to do something.

This is a level of hard push that is rare from Bingle as town--not impossible, but rare. The reason why? He said it himself:

OTOH, I'm in a lobby that has 0 names I'm amazing at reading.

Bingle doesn't have an amazing ability at reading names in this lobby, so the strong push on ta vera is out of place.

As far as towncasing, I've spoken a little about Emp, but I suppose I could go into detail.

DR Green has been waffling, but not in a way that makes it seem like they're willing to take any side in an argument. They have consistently had the most salient opinions on IGA fmpov and the things they've poked at all seem to be going somewhere (contrast ta vera). 109 for example looked like Dats was actually trying to find motivation. 144 is an admittedly weak push, but when asked about it Dats didn't back down and elaborated on his thoughts. There was a train of logic behind the push AND the followthrough to actually try to get discussion going from it. And then he went and turned the confrontation into a chance at reading me, not an accusation but an honest attempt at reaching out.

125 was also fairly town in that it's something I don't think scum thinks to fake. If scum is going to put the effort into pushing lurkers, I'd expect it to be on a lurker that actually exists in the game. "But Bingle," you say, "The fact that Dats thought Dunn WAS in the game makes that NAI!" Sure. But scum also doesn't make that post having realized he isn't. Scum either drops the Dunnstral case anyway and we all point and laugh and say "Silly Datisi, there's no Dunn in this game, you must be town." or scum just leaves the whole thing alone and doesn't post it at all. The former would be better for optics and the latter would be better for effort. Instead, Datisi is being naturally open with his approach to the thread, meaning he doesn't have the intention of hiding things.

Teal Dear:

GCB has consistently shown a town approach to the game.

This is a second read that Bingle has gone out of his way to give--on D1. The read on ta vera was already a stretch and this stretches it even further. Bingle is usually far more, for lack of better terminology, reserved when it comes to reads. He doesn't usually go in this much depth. Once was already unusual. Twice even more so.

The main things I like from Emp, along with his back and forth with ta vera which went over several posts and mostly boiled down to prompting her for actual content while she was catching up. I disagree that 8 was town indicative (Norwee is smart enough to ask non incriminating setup clarification questions publicly as scum) but the thought process that it would be town indicative isn't an unreasonable one. Further, the thought process of "I think thing X is town, Person Y thinks thing X is town, and I don't see a reason for Person Y to point out that thing X is town" is altogether far more towny than the generic "I think thing X is town and Person Y thinks thing X is town". It shows a level of paranoia as to GCB's motivations that I think is unlikely to be faked by scum as a throwaway read in the early days.

The wrongmeta application to me similarly makes sense. DNC 2 was one of my only real recent scumgames (the only other one that pops into mind is the game about Russia and nukes where I repped into a literally solved gamestate and cried a little that I didn't get to play scum with Ali for longer) and he's 100% right that my entrance there was very different to my entrance here. Comparatively I have quite a few recent towngames that are more in line with this game. He didn't take into account that DNC 2 I mostly avoided mechspeak because the majority of the game had just had the mech speak conversation and thus didn't need it again, as I pointed out by telling him to look at the contemporary game of lovers and losers 2 where I didn't engage in mechspeak because we accidentally broke the game and had to reroll based on leveraging mod info to locktown a player. (Which, to be fair, was 50% my fault and 50% llamafluff's fault.) In both cases I didn't mechspeak because I already had.

Still though, his conclusions were supported by the given evidence, which he definitely went to go find, and he didn't appear to be blowing smoke up my ass (which would be unlikely from someone who meta'd me as I'm LESS likely to townread people who townread me). The waffling on me seems like genuine cogdis where he's trying to reconcile two different opinions and can't quite line them up, which is very hard to fake well as scum.

But then he does it a third time.

I frankly do not believe that Bingle as town cares this much and puts this much effort in as town. Not from a player who in the past, as town, has repeatedly told me over multiple games something to the effect of "I am lazy on D1", so to speak. Bingle as town does not effort this much. He doesn't get these strong of reads, described this strongly. As town, Bingle is far more "reactive", but in this game Bingle is being proactive. You can see this in full effect by taking a look at his iso here. His cases in that game, such as they were, were pretty exclusively one-liners. The closest he got to cases not one-liners was him giving quotes (mostly in spoilers) to give context and elaborating on statements he had already previously made. Very very reactive.

The same holds true for this game, too--Bingle was fairly casual and reactive in nature, rather than proactive and serious.

And the same holds true for this game as well--Bingle was casual and reactive. His posts were short and usually one-liners with little in the way of casework done to look town.

Every time Bingle has been town has been similar. Fairly casual, lighthearted, and reactive. Giving reads and reasons but not bothering with a proper readslist with detailed lengthy explanations on players.

The fact that he's doing so in this game is, explicitly, because he is scum.

Thing is, you aren't looking at any of his scumgames. He puts in even less effort as scum and doesn't wall at all. Both scum and town Bingle are casual and reactive, but town Bingle will occasionally effort a wall but scum Bingle won't.

[mastina]

i genuinely do like the towncases on me / emperor

The towncases are good and genuine which is why you and Emperor are both probably town.

The towncases being good however does not make Bingle town. Quite the opposite in fact; that much effort to towncase town slots is something Bingle never does as town but there's a clear incentive to do as scum.

Neither you nor Emperor were likely to be eliminated. Both slots were fairly townread. Not universally, but townread enough that Bingle towncasing you is a zero-risk thing as scum. In fact from a risk-reward perspective, it ONLY makes sense as scum.

Why?

As town, why would Bingle need to towncase slots that weren't likely to be the elimination? The slots are already fairly townread so Bingle doesn't need to go out of his way to put the time and effort into towncasing them. He gains nothing from towncasing slots already widely townread, but he loses time which could be spent elsewhere.

Bingle's effort as town would be better spent on towncasing slots that ARE likely to be eliminated without him towncasing them.

As scum, why would Bingle towncase slots that weren't likely to be the elimination? Specifically BECAUSE they weren't likely to be the elimination. Bingle as scum towncasing them loses nothing. He's not shutting down potential mislims due to them being fairly townread because while there may be one or two slots suspicious of you/Emperor, there's not the needed six to back eliminations there. But what does he gain? Towncred for :effort: in towncasing slots that are town.

[mastina]

Oops that was meant to be posted with this.

I'm used to you being quite confident in your opening reads

You literally just saw me have a towngame where I had this exact same issue, so I'm calling bullshit on this.

Furthermore, you literally just saw my scumgame and know full well how much this game is not the same as that game was.

Those two games and the contrast between them were one of the reasons I said of all the players in this game you should have the least issue being able to tell that this isn't my scumgame and that I am town. You saw how lackluster my scumgame is and you've seen how this is my towngame so you shouldn't have suspicion on me at all. That you do is, frankly: suspicious.

[Bingle]

Alright, mechwall time:

Spoiler: CASE A: UNLEASHED ACTIONS

First of all, as mentioned earlier, doctor potions are completely irrelevant here. Potions of Harmography are similarly useless. For example, say for the sake of argument that mastina is scum and I am town. Mastina would obviously pain potion me, despite the fact that I'm a fairly townread individual. Further, it is unlikely that we as town get enough coordination to kill a scum player, because any actual scum that is likely to be double pain'd would be just as obvious a target to the scumteam. This case gives us absolutely no utility out of most of our potions and leaves us with only the JK potions really mattering. And even then, it's unlikely they matter much.

Spoiler: CASE B: No Pain Usage

Arguably, this is the best use of potions. JK and Harmography potions are both stronger, by virtue of the fact that any Harmography result is necessarily on scum, which is a straight up guilty as opposed to functionally unusable WIFOM nonsense. JK potions don't interfere with Harmography potions that target the same person, so they're still viable.

Spoiler: CASE C: Massclaim and Leash

Frankly, we don't have the time to accomplish this. It's possible it would outright break the setup, but that's reliant on RNG and I'm not going to be able to spend the time to untangle the route in any case.

Spoiler: CASE D: Limited Pool for Pain

First of all, a small pain pool gives us an additional chance that the pain usage actually kills the intended targets instead of just leaving people with 1 HP to muddy the waters on who we should be eliminating. Second, this gives us a use of harmography that is protown in nature.

Pain potions on slots that are already facing elimination from scum are a waste of scum's resources (also known as a good thing for town). In the case that deaths happen outside of the pain pool, any player who used pain INSIDE the pool becomes vastly more likely to be town. Further, if there are any harmography potions used outside of the pool of pain that catch the use of pain, that's still a guilty.

Ideally the pool should be either 1 or two players. 1 would make finding innocents more likely as any Harmography usage in that pool becomes highly indicative. 2 provides slightly more in the way of additional eliminations as it would mean scum would have to devote multiple JKs to stop the potential vigshots. And to be clear, it would in fact be in scum's best interest to stop a vig shot on town in the pain pools because that person would be a likely miselimination.

The thing Titus is dancing around: Scum should not actually kill a player tonight. Arsonist >> Goon. It's a pretty trivial understanding, but putting their shots into three separate players is better for scum because it denies us information right now and doesn't negatively impact their turns to win. Obviously, this may be different because of the composition of the scum team and whether a specific player is scary, but what this REALLY means is that scum is likely to spread out their kills tonight, regardless of what we do. We want to use harmography specifically tonight because of this.

My suggestion, for N1 we use the No Pain option and for N2 we use the Limited pool option. This gives us more information when targeting the vig shot (possibly even a guilty) and gives us optimal usage of the harmography potions on the night when it's most likely for them to be useful. If scum goes wide on kills, they increase the chances we hit one of them with a watcher result. If scum goes for a kill, they risk being caught as MULTIPLE BAD ACTORS by one investigation. The holstering of the vigs also gives us more potential harmography results tonight as a scummy player with a harmography potion still has a chance at getting a result before they die.

Note: in absolutely none of these cases should anyone claim whether they are using harmography, jk, doc or pain before the night, as that gives a road map to let scum try to fuck us with JKs. Additionally, in the limited pain pool option, each individual should make their own call on who to harmography, as both catching scum outside of the harmography pool and confirming town inside of it are powerful tools.

[RCEnigma]

I do not think this exchange needs to go on any longer.

-S

SS I think I read this as more nuanced than it really was at the time and then later realizing it wasn't nuanced gave me bad vibes for (??) When maybe it just is what it is.

[RCEnigma]

My eyes glazed over, is the tldr:

Hold pain, throw harmography/jk?

[Dwlee99]

Dwlee specifically has been giving me flashbacks to Draft, where he was scum defending me from Titus in lieu of defending himself, and I want to know if you see the same thing.

This is not a comparable scenario at all and stop doing meta

[T3]

Metagood.
Unless you're usually sorted by meta and you have the capability to do something to change it, in which case metaNAI.

[mastina]

Oh, weird. I assumed the potions had a constant ingredients list based on the OP.

(This is part of where the scumslip comes from btw. As I said--just because someone is mechanically oriented and is scum does not mean they are infallible from slipping up and making an erroneous assumption that bites them in the ass.)

[mastina]

I’m confused how you can have an ingredient without a potion.

(like I said, scumslip)