Mini Normal 2223 | Town Wins!

[Dwlee99]

I mean the PoE was cause I had a gamestate read of not salsa/Marci and not you/math and I didn't think you or math made sense with salsa or Marci, so then NM is just evil.

[Dwlee99]

But also I just woke up from a nap and had a dream Math was the final scum

[Dwlee99]

Waiting for the wall and not voting based on the dream even though I want to.

I had a question and it evaded my mind. Maybe I'll remember later

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Alright I was just rereading D3 to compare it to Mathblade's narrative of D3 found here:

I mean scum resist scum wagon. It’s kinda obvious.

I start the day with a Marci + Salsa
You buddy me with Marci + Salsa + NM
Then you call for mass claim
The day was dominated by you then me and G were not mafia pushers.
Just because the final elim was on not mafia does not mean “in control”

That elim was hard fought for

Note mostly that Math is saying the elim was hard fought for. Throughout these quotes, you'll see that N_M is only ever a policy elimination for Math. You'll also see that just before deadline when I was pushing for a Salsabil wagon I had 3 town and Math willing to vote Salsa, meaning if I were scum with N_M, I could have flipped the wagon onto Salsa right at the end of the day using Dwlee, Manatee, and Marci. Math was also willing to hammer and in this hypothetical I am scum with N_M, so I even would have had 4 townies not counting myself or N_M willing to elim Salsa. Instead I hammered N_M.

Spoiler: Day3 (The big wall)

I am kinda thinking Marci Salsa.

That naked hammer was sus as fuck.

And got your message Manatee. You’re still a friendly neighbor.

So far it checks out, Math is starting with Marci/Salsa

A cursory scan of Marci's ISO to look at why her vote stayed on Looker/DGB all day reveals this - while looking in there I paused for Salsabil interactions. If she is scum, Salsa could be the last, and I think vice versa holds true.

So the left overs are your scum reads then? Between the four of them, who do you think we should vote?

i dont like pushing my opinions onto people
-
dwlee and drippinggoofball are the ones i would choose between the 4
but then i feel bad for dwlee
so im fine with my current vote

This is a really weak reason to stay on DFG. The 4 Roden asks about, for context, are DGB, Dwlee, geraintm, and Manatee. Town!Marci used the "I feel bad for [a replaced-in player] getting voted out" in Owner's Market Blitz recently, and I mistakenly thought that meant she was scum with the replaced-in player. But as town, she didn't vote that player. Dwlee is a replace-in, but so is DGB. The "feel bad" doesn't apply to DGB here though, so there is a difference here that initially appears like a similarity to her last towngame with me.

Marci can you do a reads list? Claim (if you haven't)

im just a vt, so its not too much of a loss to town

Not_Mafia -

not too sure

MathBlade -

I had good vibes on saudade (238, 326, 412, and his stuff about u titus seems pretty good) and i have decent vibes on mathblade > i like his like catching up on things alot, though im not really too sure where they stand rn
i think hes just genuinely putting thoughts there, and not just trying to whatevers easiest. so this is prob like townlean

oʍo -

their early game stuff seemed like they were just trying to move stuff forward, the vibes tell me theres nothing with bad intentions there. (463, 464, 853, 854 specifically good vibes, if u want something stronger than just pure vibes ) townread.

Roden -

(222, 294) im not usually used to people throwingaround the term "scum claiming" so easily so these originally felt weird to me, 244 originally to me seemed like he was just doing it cuz it was whats popular, originally i didn't really like him much. As the game went on though, i realized its just I don't vibe well with his playstyle so im not too confident placing a read here. I could see him being anything.

geraintm -

idk

DrippingGoofball -

originally i didn't like looker because it looked like looker was just making excuses, 206 and its correction in 209 was goodish tho.
drippinggoofball really just hasn't done too much, which makes me comfortable with my vote <3 <3 i don't know any meta on them so i cant be like "meta meta, hes town" or anything, so im just keeping at it until i either get what i wanna see or i die x3 <3 (657, 875) i don't see too much of an explanation

Dwlee99 -

535 by itself doesn't seem too weird, but it just stands out alot in their iso. i think thats where they really started like putting their foot into the game..? i also don't like how long they let the mason thing with saudade go on. i like (619, 761), dislike 703 since they dont rlly explain much. generally, his posts look good on quick glance, but i think they could be easily faked as scum.

MaxTheFox -

im not too sure on how to read them. i don't agree with their read on owo, i dont see anything wrong with it though, i think theyre something like a "only time can tell" sorta thing.

Titus -

tbh im not sure what a babysitter is but like ill trust it i think.. though im a bit confused on the timing of ur claim

ssbm_Kyouko -

i think ssbm_kyouko is really good at being a townleader often ^.^ i think theyre townie the vibes are just there. they seem rlly focused on me/manatee so i hope they have a backup plan if things go wrong :'(

ManateeDude -

they do alot of short posts and change votes alot, im not too sure how i feel about her anymore tbh. but like i had a townread here originally, but i just like.. the vote changes feel weird and sometimes like theyre taking opportunities.

Salsabil Faria -

i remember my townread on her felt stronger before, but isoing her doesn't really keep up those same vibes. i would say townie vibes, but keep her between the lower rankings of the townie vibes imo. alot of her posts aren't rlly doing much, and her post count makes it seem like shes in thread more than she actually has been (in my mind at least).
im still traumatized from the exploder game
(so lower ranks of the townie reads for her).
^ theres some ideas of the players, not really good and def not spicy at all tho
man that was kinda alot of work and took a bunch of hrs

Because town has zero motivation to settle and let themselves be elim'd.

Scum may do so to invoke WIFOM, or to make the exact argument you're making. Because yes, why would scum just lay down and die?.

i often do it as town for not so good reasons
but sometimes ill want to do it just so that my townreads dont get picked on.

Thing is, you can't claim you're not fighting back. You've been sprinkling suspicion on others throughout all of Day 1.

wheres me sprinkling suspicion on others..? i prob wasnt doing it to defend myself tho since i remember never really feeling like i needed to defend myself much earlier

Your associative with Max isn't direct but through Manatee. Your statement though implies you checked your ISO to fact check yourself, which is weird since you should just know if you talked much with Max or not.

i dont think i checked my iso at that point, but if i did it was prob cuz i was confused.. i have the worst memory

I will say though that your defense here is actually more reasonable than I expected. I'm just not seeing the town motivation for using scum tactics like buddying and distancing, nor for why you haven't really pushed your biggest scum read.

doesn't really matter too much, but i do buddy often to people who i feel like

have

to be town.. kinda gets me in an awkward spot when i rethink on them tho
dont really know why i do it.

Of the wagons that have come up so far who do you think could be scum?

lowkey don't remember all the wagons, the one i do remember (dwlee) i think could easily flip scum tho.

If you can’t find any who do you think would be the deep wolf pushing you in that scenario?

don't really think much of my wagon is sus (916) but if theres one on there its roden, but i wouldn't be too confident to put the title on him that fast.

Open the spoiler for a D1 readslist from her

It almost checks out. I don't see how this is buddying, but I am looking at Marci with Salsa and see it as possible. We're only a few pages or less into D3 though and already halfway through Math's summary. I think he just skimmed the beginning of D3 and filled the rest in with what is convenient for him.

i thought townblock was kyo/me/marci/titus +tentative omo & MB

I think Marci + Dwlee now possibly.

Kinda wanna see other people’s posts and see what they think of Dwlee’s recent posts.

Just including to show that Math did not start the day entirely looking at N_M/Salsa/Marci as he was saying

I'm no longer doubting Math, now when considering Marci's DGB vote. I also think scum!Marci is TMIing her partners in RVS if it's {DGB, Marci, Salsabil}.

Titus was also suspicious of Dwlee/omo as a unit I feel like, though she did associate omo and Math, with omo being more likely. I think it's clear her Babysit was meant to be insurance to kill a scumread in the event of her death. I think scum!Math and scum!Dwlee might have been more careful in case Titus targeted one of them. I don't think the scumteam felt they were at risk of being targeted.

That really leaves 2 of Marci, Salsabil, N_M

The reason Titus did not die N1 may have been because Saudade was scumreading Titus D1 and Math was still in the process of mending Titus's read on his slot. D2 I think Titus had been convinced of Math's towniness. Math says he doesn't bus for no reason, the reason he would bus DGB is to buddy Titus.

We should probably mass claim today BTW

While I do call for a massclaim, technically Dwlee calls for it first and Math has either forgotten or omitted this.

Dude stop with the trolling or I just policy you.

If you’re not going to try now then I have 0 assurances you’re going to try in elo.

Consider this as your last warning.

Stop trolling or die.

Going to count the number of times Math states N_M is a policy elim starting here. 1.

VOTE: Not Mafia

Math then votes N_M (policy)

I'm just gonna tunnel Manatee Dude

Good luck with tunneling confirmed town I won’t help you spam to get out of claiming.

Until you play the vote stays.

This reads like Math is really trying hard to dig his scumbuddy out of the dirt. "Good luck with tunneling confirmed town, I won't help you..." sounds like the kind of thing you say to a teammate that is not playing to win. Math is actually frustrated that N_M is not playing to win here.

VOTE: not mafia

I wasn’t Kyo and if someone had I would have voted them probably almost instantly barring a really good claim. Because this is a normal and not a theme game these tend to be lower powered affairs. All other PRs claimed/flipped are confirmed town.

So if something like say a 1 shot vig existed it would end up having a huge protown swing given scum vigs can’t exist in normals (I think that change was made).

I really think Marci or NM should be the elim today.

Still is angling for other elims besides N_M

I want to mudder (sic) the cow.

If that means vote out NM, why not join my spicy Not Mafia wagon?

Asks Dwlee to join

I don't know where the vote count is at.

Can you like make an unofficial one? That response is pretty bad.

Says his reason for not joining is bad

I would say based on these last few pages your stock would diminish greatly if Salsa is town and Marci is scum because you actively tried to derail the Marci elim. Before today if you had asked me that question I would say Dwlee then NM then you but if that was the case throw you all in a pressure cooker and see who comes up.

I know this is a non answer but if we elim Salsa and he’s town that’s a scary proposition here because I have had a feeling a deep wolf was on DGB’s hammer and

not having been able to sort there really irks me

.

Not having been able to sort there really irks Math. Yet, he asked me for my scumgames, he asked me for my best deepwolf game. I gave them to him, he said he would read them in his Sunday read, but he didn't. He's making a show of being frustrated, but doesn't actually put any effort into solving me.

I would rather policy NM or just do Marci
What’s your case on Salsa. I don’t have experience with them.

Can you sell me on it?

+1 to policy. Total 2. Also looking to elim Marci, or now Salsa. But he won't case Salsa, he wants me to do the dirty work for him. You'll see this is a pattern as well if you read in Math's ISO.

VOTE: NM

Now that Dwlee does vote N_M, when previously MAth wanted him to vote N_M, Math scumreads Dwlee for voting N_M. Dwlee had specified he was waiting for the VC and this vote comes right after the VC does.

VOTE: Unvote

I don’t like Dwlee’s naked hop on after having had plenty of time to do a VC or react to cases.

I just can’t tell if this is lazy Dwlee or scum Dwlee. I probably will be busy most of today but will read as I can.

Yet still Math is using the fact that Dwlee didn;t do his own VC as a point against him, when Math already knows Dwlee doesn't want to do an unofficial VC and wants to wait for the real VC.

Why am I scum?

You are normally a bit more engaged in the game by this stage.
I don't think town not mafia would just sit there and let their elimination happen, they'd realise they need to be more active and have a few more thoughts. But we've had nothing from you.

I also think unless you turn it on in spectacular fashion, you'd only be doing it now because you've been called out so much. I think you are in a lose lose situation

This is Geraintm's case on N_M. The only case presented on N_M the whole day. amd what is Math's response?

I see that G but it’s still policy.

Not mafia didn’t have posts on site far as I can tell. It could be because scum or RL it’s kinda one of those lines I just don’t cross.

In an ideal world we just elim both Not Mafia and Marci before elo but we can’t. Like I find it odd that Kyo is saying Salsa is scummier than Not Mafia and Marci and I want to hear that explanation.

Boom, you guessed it, it's... POLICY for the 3rd time, even when presented with a case from conftown. Confotwn that Math is going to appeal to later today. He'll appeal that geraintm and Manatee should be leading the way (doing Math's dirty work for him)

If there is a vigilante or any town killing role I put the odds that "babysitter" is scum north of 80%, regardless of Titus' scummy day play.

VOTE: dwlee

Dwlee/N_M last 2 scum

I can be sold on this group except one thing:

Why were you so sure on Salsa, what did you think about her? This sudden shift seems odd now that I ask you for a case.

I am kinda nervous on policying NM but if we don’t have a rock star case it’s what we should do.

I don’t give a rats behind about “putting scum!me” to bed. Anyone who has played with scum!me knows that paranoia is healthy.

I am getting kinda paranoid of you/Not Mafia.

Now Math is possibly sold on N_M/Dwlee, but is feigning concern about my shift on Salsa. I say feigning because when I address his concern, he doesn't respond. We'll see that coming up.

I really would love to hear from G/Manatee about Kyo’s change in read.

I think then based on they say we either flash NM or not.

Something doesn’t sit right and I am not sure how to say it so I am just going to let this sit and see where G and Manatee come in.

Now he's wanting the conftown to push me for him, he's literally admitting he's going to wait and see where the conftown lead. Super scummy here to not just present his own arguments against me if he is truly SRing me. What this shows is that he is afraid that confotwn won't agree with him and that he will get turned against if he pushes me. I never show that fear or caution when pushing Math. Math is afraid scum.

I really would love to hear from G/Manatee about Kyo’s change in read.

I think then based on they say we either flash NM or not.

Something doesn’t sit right and I am not sure how to say it so I am just going to let this sit and see where G and Manatee come in.

Give your best shot at explaining it? I dont think anything should not be sitting right

I ask him to explain for himself rather than waiting for G/Manatee because I can smell his shit

Also have you looked even briefly at large 233?

He asked me for some meta on scum!me and I provided it to him, so I was checking if he had read it - I think he says he didn't yet but would catch up Sunday/overNight

I really would love to hear from G/Manatee about Kyo’s change in read.

I think then based on they say we either flash NM or not.

Something doesn’t sit right and I am not sure how to say it so I am just going to let this sit and see where G and Manatee come in.

Give your best shot at explaining it? I dont think anything should not be sitting right

I'm not sure how to, but if you're going against your top town read someone who can't be scum to your eyes, there should be a known justifiable reason or at least a double check.
And no I haven't. It's super late for me and I have work in the morning.

My point also doesn't involve 233. I'm trying to figure out if you swapped because you're town and had that notion or if you're scum and realized support for Salsa wasn't going to happen and then went to Not Mafia either as a mis elim or a bus. I'm trying to get to your brain state of what made you so sure before your swap to wanting Not Mafia.

I will look at that though when time permits.

To be clear I want Dwlee but think numerically that N_M may be the safest bet because he hasn't been involved and will be a liability to town in MELO if he and Dwlee are both town. Going for N_M today, for me, is insurance in case I am wrong about dwlee. I feel confident in Dwlee though so if I can get a wagon through here, I will. If I cant, my compromise is N_M because regardless of his alignment he is a good elim.

I'd also like you to respond on dwlee specifically because if we lim dwlee today and he flips red, N_M is tomorrow. If N_M flips town tomorrow, I will be in MELO with you, salsabil, and Marci. I have reasons to think Marci and possibly Salsabil are not scum with Dwlee, but dont have them for you. If we make it this far, I want to have your responses down now so I can look back on them and consider your equity with dwlee. If you're town, this will help town win in MELO, so you should respond whether you're town or scum. If town, to help me sort MELO, and if scum, to appear helpful.

Here is where I state my intent to vote N_M at the deadline. I follow through with this when the time comes.

There’s way too many posts for me to read and catch up on before work so just answering G’s question and will get to the rest at lunch / after work.

Regarding Not Mafia I agree with the sentiment. I however can’t read a trolly player like Not Mafia to save my life. I think if we are going to policy him it has to be today because if we hit town today instead then tomorrow policy elims are off the table and we have to hit scum.

Here Math admits he can't read N_M to save his life, so when he said that scum!N_M doesn't have hammers and town!N_M does have hammers, that was just a lie. also this is another +1 so I think 4 times he's said N_M is policy. Really "fighting hard" for this lim I see.

So no, I haven’t read all the wordy words because 10 minute break but this is where my thought is at

Kyo + Salsa are pretty much gunning for Dwlee.
So if we elim not mafia and town or scum since Not mafia isn’t really being talked about in context of not mafia I don’t see that changing.

So Nm town flip a conf Townie dies
Then tomorrow we are either in MELO with two players set on Dwlee or we are in double elim two players set on Dwlee

I know it’s probably somewhere but what are your current reads Dwlee?

Math skims over all my case on Dwlee - because it's TVT. Then he asks Dwlee for his reads (even though we shouldn't be discussing our reads so close to ELO)

So from your POV best case scenario NM is elimmed flips scum (I am not going to consider NM town here because the next question means we lose)

Then assume you are elimmed

Then me 1 conf town and kyo/salsa/Marci left.

Assume conf town dead and then the scum in that three kill in kyo/salsa/Marci as I am incredibly easy to buddy as evidenced by the townreads.

What do you think elo looks like and who kills whom?

And saying scum kill me is not an option. You’re not allowed to change the parameters of the hypothetical I am hunting this for a reason

Now Math specifically leads Dwlee into some final 4 scenarios to see where Dwlee's mindset is. He's setting up the Final 3-4 right here.

Okay so it's final 4 of you, Kyo, salsa, Marci. Then there's a no lim and you're off limits to kill for some reason.

I think Kyo would kill Marci because she could paint Salsa as DGB/NM's teammate pretty easily due to the lack of focus that I think Salsa has shown in sorting those slots.

I think Salsa would kill Kyo because Marci is an easier flip. But maybe she WIFOMs it and kills Marci now that I'm saying this.

I think Marci would kill Kyo for the same reasons Kyo would kill Marci. Salsa seems like an easy flip here.

That's what I think in that scenario, but I think you would be night killed if this actually played out because it gives way less info as to who is scum and keeps two townies able to be eliminated.

Note that Dwlee thinks I would kill Marci and that Marci would kill me. This is really where Math turns to buddying Dwlee and stops pushing him for the rest of the day. He's spotted that I have hard pushed town Dwlee and he is preparing to bring me and Dwlee to the end.

Why not? If you die and town wins who cares?

It's a waste of an elimination

Not to me it’s not.

I think it’s likely because no one is defending Not Mafia he flips scum.

We elim you, either the game is over or we go to 4P elo.

At this point we decide to no elim or just play it out.

I think this gives us the best chance at winning. I think Dwlee is town here but I am not confident enough to stake the game on it but I think this is what we do.

Here Math says that

because

nobody is defending N_M it's likely he flips scum. But I've been hard pushing other players all day. So why is it not, "because Kyo is defending N_M, it's likely Kyo is scum if N_M is scum"? It's because Math is saving me for the final mislim, because once I flip town, he's toast. There's too much deepwolf paranoia in the game for him to win if I die.

I think NM > Salsa > Kyo wins right now (assuming NM flips scum)

Another reason why Math brings me and Dwlee to final 3

But muuuuuuuuuuuuuuum I don't wanna

First off I am a guy.

Second off you’re really not making a case you’re town here.

This isn't policy but it's also not "you're scum because x", it's again hedging on pulling N_M out of the ground. Math still has not committed to SRing N_M because he's always poised to flip if N_M actually tries and can get himself TRed.

The hammer on DGB never got town cred >> Owo was in the PoE
Not wanting to vote them can be spun either way.

Salsa self voting I am kinda ignoring because it’s antitown if she is towb and if she is scum she wants her elim.

Math is ignoring Salsa self-voting but doesn't acknowledge N_M's self-voting.

I know there’s a lot of words and stuff I am supposed to read since work just ended I am just not feeling it.

I think we should do NM today since he’s not playing. If y’all feel more confident in a read do it. I just don’t.

VOTE: Not Mafia

policy +1: total 5?

ok im going to preface this with saying i do not believe there is any reality where kyo flips wolf here. im not going to entertain any theories involving flipping her and i really do not see how kyos positioning at EoD ever is scum alongside Goofball. feel free to argue but this is something i'll remain firm on.

dwlee im actually coming around on?? i think they didnt respond awfully to kyos push which is ++town in my book

i'll tentatively trust kyo w her salsa stance just bc im struggling w reading her

marci is an anomaly to me. reminder to go back and read her iso

N_M once again digs himself into a deeper hole and i dont think hes a great elim,, my worry would be keeping him around is worse

i feel like im missing smth in general which is just. guh demoralizing i want to be able to give a strong read but im pretty cluttered in my head

If I'm scum, manatee is in my pocket and I maybe take her to final 3 despite her being confirmed.

ok im going to preface this with saying i do not believe there is any reality where kyo flips wolf here. im not going to entertain any theories involving flipping her and i really do not see how kyos positioning at EoD ever is scum alongside Goofball. feel free to argue but this is something i'll remain firm on.

I agree that today she shouldn't be the flip, but I feel like the hard bus day one thing is totally possible and if NM flips scum, her push on me looks really bad. Look into her case against me as if NM was confirmed scum and tell me what you think.

Like look at the embedded quote. I take Manatee and Math and it's the easiest final 3 for scum!me.

i really just cant force myself to look at that D1 and say she flips scum given the fact she had the option of marci that was super easy to sustain given her previous statements. in all honesty im circling back to your point and defaulting to "N_M is town" which isnt helpful,,, so could i bug you for an explanation cos i feel like im missing smth sorry :/

I've seen scum do that sort of hard bus before. Look at Yggdrasil for instance. LLD suddenly hard bussed Anya when the other wagon was town.

Now that's just to say it's possible. If the mafia are somehow aware that the game is low-investigative power, doing a bus like this for towncred could be extremely helpful.

And that also isn't to say that NM!scum implies Kyo!scum, but that I think the possibility of Kyo!scum goes up if NM is because of her implicit defense of him here. If you'll notice, Kyo began by pushing me and NM as a team. But Kyo never really mentioned NM in this argument, and sort of took it for granted that he would flip red. That is beneficial for two reasons if NM and her are buddies: if she can mislim me today, then tomorrow there is less credibility for a NM flip because it's sort of policy at this point, the team theory of me and NM fell through, and people don't like policy eliminating in MELO.

On the other hand, if NM flips red today, Kyo can point to her partner theory to get me flipped tomorrow and put her in MELO.

ty that makes a lot more sense!! i will sleep on it and revisit what u said tmrw but for now im happy placing a metaphorical vote on N_M

Manatee says she'll revisit it, but when I push for Salsa later, she's still down. I don't think there's any way scum!me loses in a final 3 with Manatee.

Snipped because of broken quote tags ruining my wall

At this point there’s so much posting I kinda just wanna just the night to catch up with it.

Does anyone have anything brief they wanna say or any reason why NM should not be the elim?

Math says he wants to catch up in the night, but he never catches up, and he never reads my scumgames which he asked me for specifically.

If you flip town, then either Salsabil or N_M is fine with me as I don't see Marci being scum here, and I only see scum!MathBlade with scum!Dwlee. I would prefer Salsa tomorrow, still for individual reasons, then Final 4 should be Me, Math, Marci, and N_M, and of those 4, N_M is clearly the scum imo. You should agree with me as well because you have vibes that Marci and Salsa are not teamed.

Assuming you are town, can you not see what Salsa is doing today? Why would you want N_M over Salsa? In fact, for anyone who is voting N_M (geraintm I've seen your reasoning but feel free to add more regarding Salsa if you like), why do you want to eliminate N_M

more than

anyone else?

It seems like everyone is afraid of having him in MELO tomorrow, but nobody but geraintm or I have offered reasoning as to why he is scum (that I can recall). The fact that everyone's quietly letting this happen feels wrong - does nobody else get that feeling?

Mine is specifically game control.

I as pretty much confTown in like a majority of worlds should not be tipping my cards to scum at this point.
The entire idea of elo is to force scum to play by a very tight area of control.
Ideally if possible you want to force scum to vote first.

Not Mafia has a penchant for bucking any sort of rule or system set in place which means that if whoever we elim today is town we have a wildcard I can’t predict.

He has been given several chances to show a bare minimum of caring about the game and just hasn’t. Therefore he is either scum or just won’t give a damn in elo.

The more he blatantly trolls the more I think the former.

If I tip my hand too much the way I am thinking then scum adapt the scenario

Take a look at Calculasia where I was scum. Titus played that elo absolutely perfectly the way she was supposed to until she started publicly questioning which teams.

By breaking things down too much you give scum a clear path to victory.
There’s a sweet balance here.

We know the kills scum have to take which are conf town A and B. They have to make those kills OR they will no longer be in control of their vote. By remaining tight lipped at this specific moment whoever is scum doesn’t know I am a threat or not.

Elo is a big game of chicken and almost every time scum vote first town wins and vice versa if ran right.

For me to override what is a superior strategy every single time I have to be convinced that that person is 100000% scummier than someone who is seemingly not playing.

Which to be fair I don’t know if that bar is even possible.

This is again referring to N_M being policy in the end of this post. Towards the beginning though, see the bold. He specifically says that killing N_M over Salsa is about

game control

. Yet now he says I was in control that Day, when he was openly talking about being in control of the game, it just doesn't line up.

I started digging deeper into his meta while reading Calculasia when I noticed he talked about Flea The Magician (fae was town) being readable like a chicken, if you put them in the oven and wait long enough you'll know what they are. It reminded me of what he said about Dwlee earlier in this game:

teapot read

Kyo you specifically posted [redacted] which is part of why I think you're full of crap.

I cant post anything specific about an ongoing game. If you're town you can figure it out for yourself.

Then if we can’t talk about an ongoing game it shouldn’t be alluded to. Is there another way to imply what you mean without skirting rules?

I said directly what I mean. I thought dwlee was lying about their eyes glazing over, like making up an excuse for why they're not very involved right now.

I'm not going to lie about being diagnosed with inattentiveness for mafia. If you think I'm scum whatever but that reason is absolutely awful.

I don't think you're lying about a diagnosis, but I do think you're not as in the game as you would be if you were town

Got it. I misunderstood. I was thinking you/Dwlee were talking about ongoing. I missed the context in the speed read. Dwlee in my opinion is not a good liar. I think that pushing them over RL if they are scum is the wrong way to go about it. Dwlee scum I think if you make them talk they will scumfirm or townfirm themselves but they’re a teapot read.

Yup.

I ask people to “prove” where they stand based on things to see if they are consistent. Votes is a way to do that. Sometimes I use questions.

We have right around 2 days until end of day and I have to start work in a moment.
Right now, you’re the top runner for elimination so testing you and your words is my priority.
If you don’t try to lead a wagon around someone pretty fast odds are you’ll be the flip.

So if you’re town it’s in your best interest to case someone or be as active as possible to find a probable scum and convince the rest of us they’re scum or to do something.

I do think you’re a teapot read and if you just do it I think you’re sortable.

A teapot read is one that boils overtime when put under heat. Eventually the flavor of the person will be known. Players like you and flea are that way to me.

Then case her.

In the additional games I was examining I was ctrl-f'ing his ISOs for words like "burn, heat, fire, tea, teapot, kettle, oven, chicken, turkey, roast, time, wait" etc. and couldn't find it in the first couple of towngames. When I was opening his ISOs I realized he almost always replaces in the same way, with one distinct difference. Sometimes he uses an exclamation point, and other times he does not.

In Calculasia, scum!Math called Flea a teapot read. He doesn't use this term in any of his other games that I found. I know Dwlee is town now and it seems like Math has done the same thing again. Called a townie a teapot read, I mean.

This just seems like a desperate attempt not to elim Not Mafia lol. Like that’s just not even worth a response.

Back on D3 when I make an admittedly weak case on Math, he just laughs it off and says it's not worth a response. He's avoiding, and at first it seemed like because of the exclamation points, but maybe he was really more worried about getting called out on teapot reading you the way he did to Flea when he was scum in Calculasia.

This just seems like a desperate attempt not to elim Not Mafia lol. Like that’s just not even worth a response.

Facts are facts

Still no response after I goad him, I would think town might get at least somewhat engaged by this post. He doesn't even SR me for this because he's scared of what challenging me before ELO means

Math would stake the game on N_M being scum? As in you die tomorrow if he flips town?

I would put the odds pretty high he flips scum.
Bet the game, maybe.

I die tomorrow if he flips scum, no. That would be playing against wincon.

Right now I am playing the game to not lose.
Not Mafia being the elim almost assures that we (town) wins.

If Not Mafia is town and town decides that I am scum for it, then I am the elim.

Also this is a funny post - probably a typo, but fun to think of as a scumslip. The bold makes sense because as scum, N_M is literally playing against wincon by chain-limming his teammate and himself lol

Disregard my exclamation point point

VOTE: dwlee

The first time I went through I was looking at Math's whole ego and clicking what looked like Games, then when I went to get quotes I did an advanced search for Author "MathBlade" Return results as "Post Topics" and Search Forums under "Mafia Games" to filter out all the other topics I was sifting through visually the first time.

I've already found 2 towngames in the first 4 or so I opened that have exclamation points, so the presence is not AI after all

Why even look in the first place? What prompted that?

You are insistent on speeding through this day, killing N_M without a case, ignoring any points I make against Dwlee. You talk about guiding us into a favorable ELO situation but it's exactly the way a deepwolf would win this - just talking mechanics that are protown and claiming it is protown to keep your reads close to your chest here. It positions you to be flexible to vote anyone left in MELO.

You, as town, should have a similar POV to me, as we are both the consensus townreads that are likely to be responsible for the decisionmaking in ELO due to the fact the conftown will die. You should realize, as I have, that there is no risk in outing what we're thinking as town right now - neither of us die before MELO, so our reads will not influence scums' kills, and even if they do, scum have to choose to leave conftown alive to kill either of us. That is what is

actually

pro-town. Instead you are trying to close discussion. By not talking now, we have fewer conftown to talk with when tomorrow and the next day come.

So I get suspicious, because your play doesn't

feel

quite like town. I feel like you

look

town but are intentionally leading town down the wrong path, and on top of that, you seem to be ignoring anything I have to say about Dwlee, who is my top scumread by play. I would expect town to engage me on this, but you aren't, so I get suspicious.

That's why I looked in the first place. Also I'm only alive in one game right now so I have a lot of time to look at meta for this one, and I hadn't looked at you yet. I've looked at Salsabil, Dwlee, Manatee (on D1), and you now. I already dived Marci in Owner's Market Blitz very recently, and I was scum with Titus in a large that has completed now, and scum against her in the Mini that traitor T3 guiltied my partner Manatee in, so I felt like I'd know if she was scum.

geraintm I was happy to leave a day yesterDay and it turned out he was IC so I never had to meta him. I feel like meta'ing N_M will be useless because of his playstyle but I should probably try.

Only when I have backed off a little and it becomes safe to do so does Math return to engaging with me

VOTE: dwlee

i think

Here is further evidence that Manatee would be good for me to take to the end - she listens to my dwlee case, though she is convinced by his response that he is satisfactorily town. I could still bring Manatee/Math to the end though and win easily if I were scum.

I asked you if you'd stake the game on it because it feels like the way that you (and dwlee?) are saying that I want to eliminate anyone

but

N_M feels like one of you knows he will flip scum, and I thought if that someone was you that I might bait you into saying you would.

Pedit: I just played a large normal with dwlee with a similar ratio of conftown

I had the feeling one of you knew he would flip scum, looks like I was right on that.

Looks like geraintm is normally active before deadline. Would Dwlee, Math, and Manatee vote Salsa with me and he can hammer in the morning?

Here I try to get a wagon on Salsa instead, and I get support from the following people:

Looks like geraintm is normally active before deadline. Would Dwlee, Math, and Manatee vote Salsa with me and he can hammer in the morning?

I'd be ok w that

Manatee is ok with it

I'm okay killing Salsa because I think she has equity as an NM partner, but I'd still prefer to kill NM.

Dwlee is okay with it

I am not comfortable making a snap decision like that while civ game is starting.

It felt like you ignored G’s case Kyo.

I don’t townread Salsa if the votes went that way so I would hammer.

N_M is willing to compromise if the votes are there

VOTE: salsa

Manatee actually votes at this point, so N_M wagon moves to E-2

wheres the votes at rn IM SCARED TO VOTE CUZ I DONT WANNA BY ACCIDENT HAMMER AGAIN-

Marci saying she is scared to vote indicates she is talking about voting Salsa, not N_M, with the context of the conversation

Alright, we got

something

out of Salsa/Marci toward the end at least. I still have the feeling this is going to flip town though.

VOTE: N_M

Salsa votes N_M right before this, putting him back to E-1, and I hammer the wagon now that I've gotten some content out of Marci/Salsa (mostly wanted it from Marci as she had been very quiet). I follow through with the intent I laid down much earlier in the day to compromise on N_M if necessary. I thought we were about to hit deadline and didn't want to go no lim.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Other individual quotes coming

[ssbm_Kyouko]

TOWN READS

Kyouko- Probably the closest we have to obvtown.

DGB- Looker spewed town before they replaced in.

TOWN LEANS

Not_Mafia- He's been inactive the past couple days but he was actually trying to solve early on.

Titus- She's not trying too hard to look town, she's actively trying to gain information, and her responses feel genuine.

Salsabil- She only has one read that I disagree with, which actually helps make me think her reads are authentic and not just following general consensus.

NULL

OMO and Saudade (not Math)- Both are Null for the same reason. Both have been fairly chaotic, which helps generate content, but they're not doing a whole lot of actual solving themselves.

Geraintm- Not much content to look at. He's done this as town before but it's ultimately NAI.

Dwlee- Idk why they're making such a conscious effort to look scummy. It makes me think possibly just confused town, but they've played long enough to know better.

SCUM LEANS

ManateeDude- I feel like she has scum equity with Max and Marci after we had our back and forth. She occasionally gives town vibes with her posts though, so not a definite scum read.

Math (not Saudade)- Terrible entrance, terrible vote, and fake sounding questions all make him sound incredibly scummy in a short amount of time. Combined with my read on Saudade, this slot doesnt feel good at all to me.

SCUM READS

Marci- Same reason I suspect her that I do Manatee. However, I feel like Marci more blatantly tried to distance herself. Possibly scum trying to associate herself with a town!Manatee in order to build fake scum equity. Also don't think Marci has been doing much solving or scum hunting, mainly just chatting with everyone and being friendly.

Max- The root of most of my scum reads. She took a lot of heat early on then laid low ever since. Posts occasionally to avoid prod dodge accusations, but she isn't really doing anything. Most likely just trying to avoid attention, to the point it's becoming obvious.

All things considered, I'm interested in voting out either Marci or Max unless someone can come up with a compelling enough case for somebody else.

Not only do I

not

kill Roden because of this, Math

does

kill Roden because of this. Roden is the only one on the DGB wagon that SRs Math.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think we should look at who avoided the wagon for questionable reasons

Votecount:

• MaxTheFox (6): omo, Dwlee99, ManateeDude, Salsabil Faria, ssbm_Kyouko, marcistar
  omo (2): MaxTheFox, Titus
  Salsabil Faria (1): MathBlade

Day 2 will end in (expired on 2021-08-02 11:22:01).
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to eliminate.

Spoiler: Votes Since Last Votecount

VOTE: Owo
I think I like my vote here based on day play and will help me figure out if we are in scum Owo land or if we are in town Owo land which then has drastic consequences for the game as a whole imho

In fact,

VOTE: owo

Feel more confident here than Dwlee atm.

I said im lurking. salsa what r ur thoughts on max rn? you lay down a vote but im curious how serious it was

Said already, I think her lurking in this game is scum indicative, the vote on her is moderately serious. Like

Math

, I also think now we have at least one deepwolf (considering both

Dwlee

and

OMO

are town).

u said u think im town, so who does that leave as the deepwolf?
"considering both dwlee and omo are town" how do you know that..?

What if it’s

Max

and

geraintm

? 2 lurkers

i do think geraintm has a decent chance of being scum here, but max im kinda unsure on.

pedit: these wagons are giving me the spooks. omo and dwlee voting together, and Max and Salsa voting together, cross-voting
TvS wagons I think.

i dont think scum would wanna wagon together so openly. do you think they would?

1-5 Maricstar omo dynamic is interesting. Marci might be a wagon to save owo.

didn't think of this originally.

Looking at this VC here, assuming Titus town, I know I am town, then if there is scum in the wagon it is in Marci/Kyo/owo if the wagons are TvT as I suspect then a Marci Kyo wagon pops up again. I coulda sworn Kyo was the first voter on DGB though I am going to have to reread that.

i voted drippinggoofballs slot early on (i think in the first few pages..? not sure exactly) and just never moved off.


- -

out of 1333s vc,
i dont think owo would be a good move, they've felt generally towny to me this game.

max is a good vote, im not sure if i exactly trust theyre vt rn.
so is dwlee, they could be doing a lot more but they aren't doing much.

i really really really want geraintm today to give us stuff, they better not slide by like a slipperly snake

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

Hey Titus, how do you feel about flash wagon part two?

Marci brings up a good point and if y’all are all town and I am just paranoid then Faria is just buddying the shit out of me and I am wrong.

Didn't catch up fully but my reads are formed, might as well.

Weird bc I've been doing more discussion than you have. Sounds like youre your own obstacle to getting into discussion and you're projecting that onto me

Also what you claim isnt proof that is my intent nor does your analysis look at intent. Happy to dunk you if you keep this up.

What discussion have you been doing until page 10? Most of your posts up to that point were, as I said, question-dodges. What town intent could this possibly have? But honestly it's early and I'm not locking onto you yet. Do better.

Reads:

TOWN BIN

MaxTheFox - I'm town.
Salsabil - good tone and trying to solve the game early = town in my eyes.

TOWN LEAN

Saudade - at first I didn't like their tone but I don't really see scum being likely to be so nonchalant, if that's the right word.
Manatee - gut read. Trust me on this.
Not_Mafia - yes he is a troll but at the same time it looks like he's actually contributing and trying to solve. Unlike the other Miltank avatar in the game...

NULL

Everyone else, expect another list later in day 1 when there is more content.

SCUM LEAN

omo - trolled in an useless way, dodged questions, picked up the slack in the last page which is why I'm not binning them as scum,
DGB (Looker) - another gut read. I'll let DGB post before voting them though.

SCUM BIN

Nobody yet.

Reads (this is sorted within tiers):

TOWN BIN

MaxTheFox - I'm town.
MathBlade (this was Saudade) - his attempts at solving earn him a lot of good boy points.
Salsabil - kept up the good tone.

TOWN LEAN

Manatee - gut read remains.
Not_Mafia - read stayed.
Dwlee - 50% meta read on this, dubious, I'm not locked onto this in any way.

NULL

marcistar - barely there. Lurker.
ssbm - just generally doesn't ping me as

anything

.
Titus - same.

SCUM LEAN

geraintm - suggested no-lim day 1 which is usually considered a bad idea. Also lurking.

SCUM BIN

omo - see the previous list, except their accusation of a scumclaim is serious now apparently.

---

It's easier for me to townread than scumread people, I found.

Weewooweewoo sound the alarms
VOTE: Max

In actuality I skimmed her iso in the other games she posted and I think this is clearly scum!Max.

VOTE: maxthefox

I think it’s very antitown to look off wagon here unless you’re policying Not Mafia

The people who were off wagon (who are still alive) are me, Not Mafia, and G

G is confirmed town
Not mafia was inactive for most of the day
And me who defending Max the entire time.

Even if we assume Not Mafia scum unless you’re assuming a Me+Not Mafia team (something I know to be false) then we know there is scum on Max’s wagon and it’s where we should look.

Just a reminder that Max's wagon was all town and Math knew that and whiteknighted Max for towncred, then says it's antitown to be looking off the wagon (unless you're going to policy his partner in which case it's 100)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think scum killed Titus because it was obvious she was going to target me or omo that night.

I touch on this in the wall but I think part of why Math did not kill Titus D1 is Titus may have still been harboring suspicion. The way he reveals the FN crumb to Titus in secret with the songs is a way to buy her trust before he kills her N2.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

^whereas I probably just kill Titus N1 because the ratio of town:scum is the highest on N1 and it's the easiest to avoid the babysitter hitting mafia on N1. I provided the same reasoning to scum!Titus in Large233 when we killed Cyrus - the longer we waited, the more likely it would be that Cyrus would target scum, just by statistical chance.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I would say based on these last few pages your stock would diminish greatly if Salsa is town and Marci is scum because you actively tried to derail the Marci elim. Before today if you had asked me that question I would say Dwlee then NM then you but if that was the case throw you all in a pressure cooker and see who comes up.

I know this is a non answer but if we elim Salsa and he’s town that’s a scary proposition here because I have had a feeling a deep wolf was on DGB’s hammer and

not having been able to sort there really irks me.

This is also in the wall but in case it gets skimmed, I want to highlight that Math complains about sorting the deep wolf but does not read my games that he asked for of his own accord. He asked me for my best deepwolf game and I gave him a pretty short one. I also referenced Large 233 numerous times in this game, and provided a list of all my games onsite up until the few most recent ones. He said he would catch up overNight and on that one Sunday, but he clearly never put in the effort to solve me despite complaining about it.

[MathBlade]

Waiting for the wall and not voting based on the dream even though I want to.

I had a question and it evaded my mind. Maybe I'll remember later

If you do you do.

At this point my case is pretty clear.

I can go back and forth with Kyo but it’s pointless.

Yes I said NM was policy and already explained why I didn’t provide why.

You didn’t want to meta read your buddy because you’d be screwed.

It’s pretty simple.

I have to work. Game is in your hands Dwlee if you have questions lemme know.

[T3]

Votecount:

• MathBlade (1): ssbm_Kyouko
  ssbm_Kyouko (1): MathBlade

Day 6 will end in (expired on 2021-08-22 16:12:01).
With 3 alive, it takes 2 to eliminate and 2 to no eliminate.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

This was also in the readwall but I wanted to highlight it

So from your POV best case scenario NM is elimmed flips scum (I am not going to consider NM town here because the next question means we lose)

Then assume you are elimmed

Then me 1 conf town and kyo/salsa/Marci left.

Assume conf town dead and then the scum in that three kill in kyo/salsa/Marci as I am incredibly easy to buddy as evidenced by the townreads.

What do you think elo looks like and who kills whom?

And saying scum kill me is not an option. You’re not allowed to change the parameters of the hypothetical I am hunting this for a reason

Okay so it's final 4 of you, Kyo, salsa, Marci. Then there's a no lim and you're off limits to kill for some reason.

I think Kyo would kill Marci because she could paint Salsa as DGB/NM's teammate pretty easily due to the lack of focus that I think Salsa has shown in sorting those slots.

I think Salsa would kill Kyo because Marci is an easier flip. But maybe she WIFOMs it and kills Marci now that I'm saying this.

I think Marci would kill Kyo for the same reasons Kyo would kill Marci. Salsa seems like an easy flip here.

That's what I think in that scenario, but I think you would be night killed if this actually played out because it gives way less info as to who is scum and keeps two townies able to be eliminated.

In these posts, Math is fishing for who he should bring to MELO/ELO. The reason Marci died is that you think I would kill her.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Math would stake the game on N_M being scum? As in you die tomorrow if he flips town?

I would put the odds pretty high he flips scum.
Bet the game, maybe.

I die tomorrow if he flips scum, no. That would be playing against wincon.

Right now I am playing the game to not lose.
Not Mafia being the elim almost assures that we (town) wins.

If Not Mafia is town and town decides that I am scum for it, then I am the elim.

Also in the readwall, but wanted to highlight that this is likely a typo, but fun to read as a scumslip lmao

[Dwlee99]

My analysis completely changes without salsa alive but yea. It is weird to me that he asked assuming he isn't nightkilled.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Waiting for the wall and not voting based on the dream even though I want to.

I had a question and it evaded my mind. Maybe I'll remember later

If you do you do.

At this point my case is pretty clear.

I can go back and forth with Kyo but it’s pointless.

Yes I said NM was policy and already explained why I didn’t provide why.

You didn’t want to meta read your buddy because you’d be screwed.

It’s pretty simple.

I have to work. Game is in your hands Dwlee if you have questions lemme know.

>You haven't posted a case on me
>You're now backtracking because you're caught lying about why you voted for N_M (you also awkwardly voted for DGB for the wrong reason, if you were town you would have been voting for a scumread, but that was a fake scumread all along)
>You and I both know there is no point in metaing N_M

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I also have to work now but we have like 6 days to go through this - next on my list is to analyze Math's defense of Max on D2, and to see if he shows any interest in policy eliminating N_M on D2 before Geraintm reveals as IC.

[Dwlee99]

Threatens to wall post to get a hammer uwu

[MathBlade]

Waiting for the wall and not voting based on the dream even though I want to.

I had a question and it evaded my mind. Maybe I'll remember later

If you do you do.

At this point my case is pretty clear.

I can go back and forth with Kyo but it’s pointless.

Yes I said NM was policy and already explained why I didn’t provide why.

You didn’t want to meta read your buddy because you’d be screwed.

It’s pretty simple.

I have to work. Game is in your hands Dwlee if you have questions lemme know.

>You haven't posted a case on me
>You're now backtracking because you're caught lying about why you voted for N_M (you also awkwardly voted for DGB for the wrong reason, if you were town you would have been voting for a scumread, but that was a fake scumread all along)
>You and I both know there is no point in metaing N_M

I have. I just need less words.

I did not lie. I was manipulative but I did not lie.

I disagree here.

If Dwlee has questions or how I can help them sort I will. But I think my play speaks for itself when it’s clear I am town.

Sure anyone looking hard enough can probably find a contradiction or two or where I misremember something. Anyone can case anyone.

The difference is sorting through it.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Threatens to wall post to get a hammer uwu

2303 is the wall, in the spoiler

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Math, did you or did you not read any of Large 233, or my deepwolf game?

If you did, what did you think?

[Dwlee99]

Oh I missed the spoiler. I'm scared

[MathBlade]

Math, did you or did you not read any of Large 233, or my deepwolf game?

If you did, what did you think?

I did. I just can’t type what I read at work.

[Dwlee99]

Math did you think I was paranoid of you last day phase?
Same question to Kyo.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I didnt care what you were thinking last day phase because I'd townbinned you the Night before and I was suspicious of Math/Marci. I became increasingly suspicious of Math when he started to change his tune on giving reads before ELO, so I hunkered down on pushing for no lim and tried not to comment on much else.

I don't remember thinking you were suspicious of me, but even if I had thought that, I wouldnt really care whether you were, because you were going to no lim, and if you had suspicions on me I would deal with them today if you were still alive