Datisi's Mini Normal Review, July 2021

[mastina]

again, this is just my interpretation (cough cough

@implo

), but i'm decently sure that this is how it works?

Pretty sure you got it right.

Backups of a role, by default, become the base version of the role once any version of that role dies, even if that version of the role had modifiers the backup did not have. The backup does not inherit the modifiers of the role it is backing up. (A backup cop becomes a full cop if a 1x cop dies.)
Backups can have role modifiers the original role did not have. (A 1x backup cop becomes a 1x cop if a full cop dies.)
Backups can be for a modified version of a role. (A backup 1x cop does not become a 1x cop if a cop dies, but does become a 1x cop if a 1x cop dies.)
Backups do not become the role they are a backup of if another backup dies. (A backup cop does not become a cop if a backup cop dies.)
Backups are cross-alignment. (A town backup doctor becomes a doctor if a scum doctor dies; a scum backup roleblocker becomes a roleblocker if a town roleblocker dies.)

The exception to all of these rules is the Universal Backup, which functions on an entirely different ruleset. (Universal Backups can only inherit roles of the same alignment, and a Universal Backup inherits the

full

role they back up, including all modifiers and including all shots used, meaning that a UB inheriting a 2x cop that had used one shot has only one shot left of their 2x cop and does not receive the original 2x cop's first result.)

This probably isn't the best wording to convey the concept and probably doesn't cover every interaction but is a general rundown I believe of most of the important stuff.

[Datisi]

Backups of a role, by default, become the base version of the role once any version of that role dies, even if that version of the role had modifiers the backup did not have. The backup does not inherit the modifiers of the role it is backing up. (A backup cop becomes a full cop if a 1x cop dies.)

---

Backups do not become the role they are a backup of if another backup dies. (A backup cop does not become a cop if a backup cop dies.)

the latter seems like an almost arbitrary exception of the former, since "backup" in itself is a modifier, no?

[northsidegal]

Backups of a role, by default, become the base version of the role once any version of that role dies, even if that version of the role had modifiers the backup did not have. The backup does not inherit the modifiers of the role it is backing up. (A backup cop becomes a full cop if a 1x cop dies.)

yeah, i feel like under this interpretation a backup ascetic actually would become an ascetic upon the death of another ascetic? agree with dats that it seems arbitrary for it to not

[implosion]

I believe nsg/mastina are right. I think "backup" is sort of a special exception in a sense that a "backup cop" isn't actually a cop yet. Similar to "enabler" which while technically a cop enabler is a modifier applied to a cop, it's not really a cop.

[northsidegal]

so to be clear, you would say that if there was a backup cop and a 1-shot cop died, the backup cop would become a cop?

[northsidegal]

to sort of skip ahead to my actual argument, i think that it shouldn't because i think that then you would have to carve out an exception for dat's triple backup scenario. you probably also have to carve out an exception for enablers, sort of like you say – if a cop enabler dies, should a backup cop become a cop? (of course, that would be a really stupid/funny combination of roles, but still)

i just think the consistent thing to do is to make it so backups are modifier specific. i guess we can bring this to the standardization thread but yeah

[Datisi]

because i got really attached to the idea of 3 mafia backup ascetics in the last 24 hours before the nrg crushed my hopes and dreams:

1x town n1 n2 friendly neighbour
1x town weak visitor
1x town roleblocker
1x town informed ascetic (all members of the mafia are backup ascetics; there is an informed mafia member who is aware of the existence of a town informed ascetic.)
6x vanilla townie

1x mafia informed backup ascetic (there is a town informed ascetic who is aware of the fact that all mafia members are backup ascetic, and who is aware of the existence of a mafia informed who is aware of the existence of a town informed ascetic.)
2x mafia backup ascetic

public info: all mafia members have two same modifiers in their role. they may or may not have different roles.

i'm stealing the gimmick of "a role that is informed of being important but can't say so because scum are looking for them" from a normal i played half a year ago. the friendly neighbour is the only role that i'm hm about here. it feels wrong to punish scum for sniping the ascetic super early (by introducing a role that is Basically A Cop then), but this setup otherwise feels too weak for town and i have no idea what to do with it otherwise. maybe a fruit vendor or something? i'm not sure.

[northsidegal]

that setup is probably like one power role short of being within the acceptable range of scumsided for me. i think that the wording on some of the info could be better (e.g. not too certain what "two same modifiers in their role" really means), but obviously that's something more for the role PMs stage than now.

as it stands i don't really have any issue with the setup's vision (actually i'm quite a fan), i just agree with you that as it stands it's probably a bit too weak for town. i don't think that the friendly neighbor is really "punishing scum", i think i might just call it sort of a natural counterbalance – after all, town is sort of punished for getting scum via the roleblocker and weak visitor no longer working (at least, if we go with the "backups activate other backups" interpretation). so i don't think it's a big deal.

[Datisi]

(at least, if we go with the "backups activate other backups" interpretation)

er, i thought we were not going with that, considering literal implosion told us to not go with that. like, that's the whole point with the town having an ascetic who's also informed that they REALLY shouldn't claim being ascetic. it was kind of a fix added on after i was told backups don't activate backups.

[Datisi]

the reason for the information. originally the public information was just "all mafia members have the same role", as a means of letting the town know that once one of them died, the other two became ascetic. but since that's apparently Not How That Works, i added a town ascetic and thought to balance around that. but then i realized there's a possibility that the town ascetic just plain claims day 1 a la miller, so i tried to fix *that* my adding the two informed roles to the game... and then the "all mafia members habe the same role" claim was false because one of them got an informed modifier slapped on top of their role.

also, typing that out, i just realized a potential issue. if going by the letter of normal games, "backup is treated as a modifier to a

role

, causing the role to be unusable and do nothing until another player with the same role (regardless of alignment) has died". and i just realized that "ascetic" is classified as a modifier, not as a role.

intuitively, "backup ascetic" makes sense. but going by the exact wording, i'm not sure if that's a legal combination... i'm gonna be Not Happy if that also gets vetoed now ;_;

[mastina]

the latter seems like an almost arbitrary exception of the former, since "backup" in itself is a modifier, no?

I wouldn't call backup a modifier, actually--I'd call it a role.

[Datisi]

...bump?

i mean, "backup" is technically classified as a modifier, though i understand the idea that it's not a "classic" modifier.

is "backup ascetic" then a legal role combination? that is, a person who becomes an ascetic after one ascetic has died?

[mastina]

is "backup ascetic" then a legal role combination? that is, a person who becomes an ascetic after one ascetic has died?

Backup Ascetic would in fact me a legal combination as it is a role that becomes an ascetic after an ascetic has died.

[Datisi]

okay uh. thinking more, i don't actually like the backup ascetics anymore, since my idea before relied on them activating as soon as one scum died, and introducing a town ascetic complicates things more than i am happy with

1x n1 n2 friendly neighbour
1x town lazy alien
1x town 3-shot disloyal detective
1x town universal backup
6x vt

3x mafia lazy ascetic

public info: all mafia members are the same role.

how is something like this looking idea/balance-wise?

[mastina]

Disloyal detective feels a bit unfun given it cannot get any results at all making it basically a named townie. It's not a real investigative in spite of the town not having any true investigative (friendly neighbor is a self-conftown but not a real investigative), so I'd say the town is a bit light in power with an unfun borderline-unfair mechanic in place, but I think the setup is definitely workable and close to good.

[Datisi]

the mafia aren't just ascetics, they're lazy ascetics. the disloyal detective becomes an alignment cop once only one scum is left alive. that was my idea behind the role - at 3 scum alive, they think they're a good role but in fact they're useless. at 2 scum alive, they realize that they're useless RIGHT NOW but will gain power once another scum dies. which also ties in with punishing early scumflips, since if a scum flips on day one, the disloyal detective will immediately know not to waste their shots yet.

and the friendly neighbour confirms pretty much anyone who backs them up, no? as soon as one scum flips, the town will know the mafia were ascetic, therefore whoever confirmed the friendly neighbour was town.

granted, i am kinda worried if this setup has too much opportunity to snowball in either direction (complete scum sweep *or* one scum falling early and the rest right after), so i'm interested if there's any simple fixs for that. maybe the universal backup can be something else? that's the last one i added when i wasn't sure what else to add.

[Datisi]

so... is this review still happening, or...?

[mastina]

I was honestly hoping that nsg would chime in.

It's probably within my authority to take over as a reviewer (i.e. going from the secondary reviewer I am meant to be, to the primary reviewer out of nsg the primary not being here), but I'd still prefer to have a second reviewer backing me up here. I'd assume implosion is reading here but if needed we can ping him more directly and ask about nsg.

[Datisi]

i'll ping him and ask.

i do have ideas for the setup change, but that's probably better left for when the reviewer situation gets sorted out.

[implosion]

You can take over as primary, mastina. I’ll try to keep an eye and comment if needed but feel free to ping me via pm if I’m not responding bc I’m potentially going to be absorbed in real life stuff this week

[mastina]

i do have ideas for the setup change

Per 69, I think we're good for me to hear them.

[Datisi]

1x town simple neapolitan
1x town informed disloyal cop (all members of the mafia have the ascetic modifier; you know that there are no aliens, commuters, jailkeepers, roleblockers, or rolestoppers in game, as well as no joats with any of those abilities)
1x town ascetic enabler
7x vt

1x mafia informed ascetic (xxx is a town ascetic enabler; there is a town informed disloyal cop in the game; they are informed of there being no aliens, commuters, jailkeepers, roleblockers, or rolestoppers in game, as well as no joats with any of those abilities)
2x mafia ascetic

okay, so keeping with the theme of "all mafia members have similar roles" i got going on. i also wanted to incorporate the idea of a town investigative who is useless unless a certain condition is met (in this case, the ascetic enabler dying) + mafia being informed of that being the case and having to work to make sure that condition is not met. i've had a few ideas on how to work that in (ninjas/watchers, doctors/gunsmith) but ultimately this seemed the most elegant, plus a lot of this review has been focused on ascetics so let's keep it going.

now, my reservations about the actual execution of the setup:

(1) i'm not sure if the town power is enough? like, with 7 vts, i know the neapolitan is strong, but considering the possibility of it being the only functional tpr for the whole game, is it *enough*?

(2) i'm also not sure if the "hey scum, this person is the ascetic enabler, and you really should keep them alive" is that exciting. mainly, unless the role lands on a player who either happens to be the ultimate yeetbait or a paragon-level scumhunter, simply *not* killing the person until they figure out who's the disloyal cop might not be that much of a challenge?

now, i was gonna go off thinking aloud on how to give scum more incentive to hunt for the cop (by, for example, making the ascetic enabler an ic as well), now i'm wondering if a game like this is inherently unfun for scum? where they have to find and kill a certain player in order to "proceed"? i guess it's not *that* widely different than "traditional" power role hunting, but i still want to hear a second opinion there.

oh, and slightly off-topic question: there is nothing in the normal rules that says that the town roles have to be coloured green and scum roles have to be coloured red, right? like, is there anything stopping me from making role pm's with town role names in red and scum role names in green, and flipping them accordingly in game? not saying i would do this, because i'm not (yet) that much of an asshole mod, but i am wondering.

[mastina]

oh, and slightly off-topic question: there is nothing in the normal rules that says that the town roles have to be coloured green and scum roles have to be coloured red, right? like, is there anything stopping me from making role pm's with town role names in red and scum role names in green, and flipping them accordingly in game? not saying i would do this, because i'm not (yet) that much of an asshole mod, but i am wondering.

There's nothing in the official Normal rules against that but I as a reviewer would veto it as a violation of the expectation of a "Normal" game--color associations are fairly normal, with hues of red and similar being for mafia and hues of green/blue (interchangeable, so long as it's universal i.e. not using two different hues/colors for two different roles), so something that is the inverse of that I'd consider a theme mechanic even though there's no rule against it and it's a small aesthetic thing.

But that's my answer as a reviewer; you might get a different answer from a different reviewer.

As for the setup proposed: generally speaking, the more you force limits on who scum can/cannot kill, the less freedom in nightplay they have, making the game be less fun for them and reducing their agency. Scum in the proposed setup have basically full agency during the day, but during the night the roles in question limit their freedom.

Games aren't required to be fun, but if that's something you want higher emphasis on, I would suggest a change in the game mechanic. You might want to shift the mafia roles into an active role for instance, but then shift the setup so that they have reasons for activating/not activating their role. (You can keep ascetics for instance by having them be Activated Ascetic, as Activated is a Normal role modifier.) I'm not quite sure what the shift in the town power would need to be to accommodate for the shift in mafia mechanic, but I'd think for the fun factor, increasing mafia agency by giving them more power other than their nightkill would be what you'd want here.

[Datisi]

i know fun isn't a necessity in a review, but players having fun is the whole point of moderation for me, and it seems like scum players as a whole are having a hard time on site now, i don't want to make it worse by restrictive game design. i'll try to think of a way to do what you suggested.

[Datisi]

okay, i cannot figure out a way to do that, other than throwing in both trps that scum wants and those that scum doesn't want to be ascetic against, and making them guess whether they have to activate or not based on no info seems... like a not fun game design. so maybe something like this?

1x town ascetic activated innocent child
1x town 2-shot macho simple neapolitan
1x town babysitter
1x town lazy roleblocker
6x vt

1x mafia informed backup ascetic (there is a town ascetic activated innocent child in the game)
1x mafia 1-shot rolestopper backup ascetic
1x mafia backup ascetic

public info: all members of the mafia are backup ascetics. they may or may not have additional roles and/or modifiers.

i feel like scum would want to hunt the ic here in order to be ascetic, but it's not outright game-losing if they don't find it immediately. and they have a 1-shot rolestopper to help them out a bit there.

and mechanics wise, i'm not sure how the interactions between a babysitter and a macho role work. mainly, babysitter is a protect when it targets the nightkill (so i assume that would fail), but it's a kill when it gets killed (so i assume that would go through)?