Open 825 - PYP X/Y: HoS_S [game over!]

[House]

But they’re both suspects, therefore they’re both good lims, there is no “one of” in that sort of statement

Clumsily worded, perhaps, but i was stating the possible scum teams, of which MM was the common denominator.

Eh I think I see the missing logical connector there
“MM + one of these two are probably the scum,

thus

the are all good lims”

Now you're tracking!

[House]

I guess it checks out but it’s a really dumb way of setting Flea up because the connection was set up from the other end to how it would make sense
Basically I’m saying if MM was doing that, she fucked it up

Just curious, did you miss 2512?

[Titus]

I think everyone on that Enchant wagon is likely town.

Concur. They at least get a pass until day 2

[Titus]

I am not wanting an MM wagon today.

[Titus]

vote count 1.17

with 14 votes in play, it takes 8 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-09-03 17:20:00).

yeet

Enchant [4]:

Bee, Titus, PenguinPower, ManateeGal

Miss Midnight [4]:

Thor Ragnarok, Cat Scratch Fever, Harvey and Haley, the worst

Harvey and Haley [2]:

Flea The Magician, Gamma Emerald

Thor Ragnarok [1]:

Miss Midnight

Cat Scratch Fever [1]:

Enchant

ManateeGal [1]:

House

not voting [1]:

Something_Smart

mod notes

~ dual mod iso

flavour

vote count 1.19

with 14 votes in play, it takes 8 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-09-03 17:20:00).

yeet

Enchant [4]:

Bee, Titus, PenguinPower, ManateeGal

Gamma Emerald [4]:

Miss Midnight, the worst, Thor Ragnarok, Harvey and Haley

Miss Midnight [3]:

Cat Scratch Fever, House, Gamma Emerald

Harvey and Haley [1]:

Flea The Magician

Cat Scratch Fever [1]:

Enchant

not voting [1]:

Something_Smart

mod notes

~ dual mod iso

flavour

vote count 1.24

with 14 votes in play, it takes 8 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-09-03 17:20:00).

yeet

Gamma Emerald [6]:

Miss Midnight, the worst, Thor Ragnarok, Auro, Cat Scratch Fever, Flea The Magician

Enchant [6]:

Bee, PenguinPower, ManateeGal, House, Gamma Emerald, Titus

not voting [2]:

Something_Smart, Enchant

mod notes

~ dual mod iso

flavour

vote count 1.30

with 14 votes in play, it takes 8 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-09-03 17:20:00).

yeet

Enchant [5]:

the worst, ManateeGal, Auro, Gamma Emerald, Miss Midnight

Titus [5]:

Flea The Magician, Thor Ragnarok, Cat Scratch Fever, House, Enchant

ManateeGal [1]:

Bee

Miss Midnight [1]:

PenguinPower

Thor Ragnarok [1]

Titus

not voting [1]:

Something_Smart

mod notes

~ dual mod iso

flavour

For me tomorrow

[Titus]

Still want Thor or Auro

[Gamma Emerald]

I guess it checks out but it’s a really dumb way of setting Flea up because the connection was set up from the other end to how it would make sense
Basically I’m saying if MM was doing that, she fucked it up

Just curious, did you miss 2512?

I didn’t really process it, yeah that makes more sense

[Auro]

I'd rather lim Thor, yeah
VOTE: Thor Ragnarok

[Enchant]

GeorgeBailey

[House]

GeorgeBailey

You're dead, stop posting.

[House]

I am not wanting an MM wagon today.

I hope that's not because of some soft or crumb.

This is not a game that would matter in.

[House]

Spoiler: Every time MM is mentioned in Enchant's ISO

VOTE: Miss Midnight

?

Seems like i was fast with townreads.

Why MM is mafia?

Long for midnight by voting miss midnight

Enchanting?

Yes, but no.

...
I kinda wanna ask why you chose to vote me? If it's because you're counterwagoning to survive, why not miss midnight?

Because i think you are more likely mafia than MM.

Well. Yes?

Okay.
Why am I scummier than MM to you?

Hard to explain.

I don't think mafia makes something like this:

Could someone who was scum... make this??

Spoiler: Every time Enchant is mentioned in MM's ISO

why?

I don't think Enchant read past iterations of PYP if he thought people would always first pick vig. I think scum almost certainly would have looked at what numbers and roles people have picked in past games.

Good logic. Early townreads for me on you, Enchant, and Bee.

VOTE: ManateeGal

... Only i here tried to being higher in quoue to get best roles?

No, I did this as well. This is my fourth PYP game (all different variants, but same drafting mechanism), and I have picked 9 each time, with an average draft position of 3.5.

It's quite a nice strategy you've carved out for yourself. Anyone who actually goes back to check previous games will probably take notice of it and thus will avoid it, so your only risk is either accidental collision from those who don't check or notice, or intentional collision for some other purpose. I very briefly considered the latter, but decided against it. Feels almost like some out of game advantage that you've got, really. Though, no more so than how much any given player's meta contributes to their benefit in a game.

Good logic. Early townreads for me on you, Enchant, and Bee.

Can you explain the Bee townread? Thanks.

@Miss Midnight

-Harvey

There's nothing compelling or convincing that I could tell you at this stage. I just got a towny feeling reading her posts up to that point.

@Midnight, What are your thoughts on Enchant? I have my own opinion but I want to hear yours.

He's been asking weird questions and having some weird thoughts. They're overly innocent thoughts, but not in a way which seems forced or intentional. Inclined to read as town, but his play so far seems different from the little I've seen from his other games; unsure how to interpret.

Why my thoughts? It's because together we're the most stylish in the playerlist, isn't it? It is, I knew it.

is there a basis for the enchant wagon im missing?

mine seems to be based off of lack of content or interactions which is... fine considering what i've done so far.

Why is it fine? What's the problem with pushing awkward, low content slots?

Curious comment, considering your clamming-up on the circumstances of Manatee.

is there a basis for the enchant wagon im missing?

mine seems to be based off of lack of content or interactions which is... fine considering what i've done so far.

Why is it fine? What's the problem with pushing awkward, low content slots?

Curious comment, considering your clamming-up on the circumstances of Manatee.

Curious comment given I FoSed you as partners with Enchant.

ManateeGal was an RVS wagon, nothing more. I was perfectly ok with it proceeding and I still am.

That doesn't preclude me from pushing the slots I think are scum.

You're equating silence on a topic to objecting to it.

Okay, this is a good response.

VOTE: House

1) I feel like your anger at Gamma is like.... really fast. It escalated up to "no kill one of us" in a way that doesn't feel organic to me.
2) I don't know how much you've played but you're an older user and I find it kinda unbelievable that you'd dismiss two scum wagons D1 because they happen not an uncommon amount imo.
3) I like Gamma and Manatee as town right now so woo.

I see your townreads on the other wagons of Gamma and Manatee, but thoughts on the Enchant wagon? Enchant's alignment in general?

VOTE: House

1) I feel like your anger at Gamma is like.... really fast. It escalated up to "no kill one of us" in a way that doesn't feel organic to me.
2) I don't know how much you've played but you're an older user and I find it kinda unbelievable that you'd dismiss two scum wagons D1 because they happen not an uncommon amount imo.
3) I like Gamma and Manatee as town right now so woo.

I see your townreads on the other wagons of Gamma and Manatee, but thoughts on the Enchant wagon? Enchant's alignment in general?

Kind of wanted to raincheck this but, Enchant is more likely to be scum than Manatee but less than House imo? I don't know what to make of Enchant not caring about the wagon on him. Like if it's because he doesn't know how to engage with the people pushing him or because he doesn't care. He's posted content but it's not engaging on stuff that matters as much. :<

Earlier I interpreted that weirdness as town. Agreed that it becomes a little harder to interpret that way as it continues with little engagemnt in the face of a wagon, and agreed that it might be better to rain check the discussion until we hear more.

Manatee or Enchant would be better votes

Were you scumreading Thor at any point?
Wanna talk about Thor?

-Harvey

Not really, no... I toyed with the idea briefly,

but he has zero motive as scum to actively attempt to derail my wagon in the way that he did, by posting details about me that he could have sat on as scum

.

If my wagon is derailed, it might land on him or one of his buddies if he's scum, and i don't see him risking that as scum when he's already under suspicion himself.

Think that these kinds of reads (bolded) come a lot more from town than they do scum. Townies have a tendency to townread defenses of themselves, there's a cognitive bias against seeing reasons that someone defending you would be scum. Don't think scum have that same tendency, so think that this is town indicative from House. Probably more so especially given the competing wagon positions of House and Thor, at least at the time of this post.

What would you say your main motivation was for the questioning of people scumreading Thor around that time?

I think just to understand the reads so that if I disagree with the reasoning I can voice that disagreement without jumping to conclusions.

It seems like you didn't do this for earlier wagons, such as on House or Enchant. Why?

VOTE: harvey and haley
Idk about Enchant but I feel this is a decent vote seeing as I’ve seen like a few people express suspicion toward this slot and I also suspect them

Think this is a really bad justification here.

i leave y'all alone for one night and THIS happens

VOTE: enchant

wanna start off a shock 11th hour counterwagon?
want to get a claim out of enchant?
you are a furball full of potential rn.

Think that unless you genuinely and strongly want Enchant over Gamma today this is pretty strongly anti-town, even disregarding my reads on either player. Especially the getting a claim out of Enchant part, don't see a reason to push for more claims unless like I said you strongly want an elim there.

It seems to me like Flea scum only makes sense if Enchant is also scum, I can't really see Flea scum Enchant town. So again, even without any real townread there I guess I just don't really get the wagon.

It seems to me like Flea scum only makes sense if Enchant is also scum, I can't really see Flea scum Enchant town.

Why? Because Flea hasn't voted for Enchant?

Basically? Yeah.

That feels kinda flimsy
Why do you think Flea wouldn’t bus? How does your read on me factor into that?

Doesn't really make sense. A random last minute vote on Enchant there would give basically no town credit and would probably actually be more suspicious than it would give town credit. There's especially no reason to do it when we literally had tied competing wagons.

It has basically nothing to do with my read on you?

It seems to me like Flea scum only makes sense if Enchant is also scum, I can't really see Flea scum Enchant town.

Why? Because Flea hasn't voted for Enchant?

Basically? Yeah.

It wouldn't matter if both Enchant and Gamma were town, would it?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

That feels kinda flimsy
Why do you think Flea wouldn’t bus? How does your read on me factor into that?

Doesn't really make sense. A random last minute vote on Enchant there would give basically no town credit and would probably actually be more suspicious than it would give town credit. There's especially no reason to do it when we literally had tied competing wagons.

It has basically nothing to do with my read on you?

I’m not asking how it affects your read on me, rather I’m asking the reverse, how your read on me informs your view of the Flea/Enchant relationship

Yeah, again I think I want to say it changes nothing? Doesn't really have all that much to do with you I don't think.

Suppose Enchant & Gamma were TvT wagons, both at 6 votes

Scum Flea can just vote whichever miselim wagon fae wants to go through

A hypothetical scenario in which scum flea and enchant town can coexist

But I guess you'd have to think Gamma could be town in this scenario

I do think that Gamma could be town? Or rather, as I think I said verbatim and had a whole argument about earlier, I'm not so arrogant as to be incapable of considering worlds in which I'm wrong. Interesting that people seem to have that perception of me, though.

In that scenario, why does scum Flea refuse to vote the Enchant wagon? As you say, fae can just vote whichever one to go through and switch between them.

I do think that Gamma could be town? Or rather, as I think I said verbatim and had a whole argument about earlier, I'm not so arrogant as to be incapable of considering worlds in which I'm wrong. Interesting that people seem to have that perception of me, though.

In that scenario, why does scum Flea refuse to vote the Enchant wagon?

As you say, fae can just vote whichever one to go through and switch between them.

Nah, not arrogant. I just wasn't sure if you were working from the assumption that Gamma is scum.

One reason would be optics - one can't be seen as willing to go with any miselim.

I agree that that's a valid concern for scum. Think my impression is just that the utility for scum is a lot greater in being more flexible on which of the two goes through; even just pushing for claims gets you a lot. So, not impossible, just perhaps unlikely. I would be surprised, let's say.

Like I said. I think that 1 day 22 hours on the clock is really not the best time to be pressure wagoning someone. Also, this is another "level zero" thought similar to what I said about Flea and Enchant, but I think that the lack of any real counterwagon movement to Manatee is weak evidence that scum don't have any problem with the current state of affairs. It's possible Manatee is being bussed, but I think that's like the third possible world I would be considering here. (That's not just an expression, it really is the third.)

So, your problem with me is admittedly a playstyle issue which goes back to my comment about you wanting people to fit into your mold.

To be clear - which if you were reading with actual intent to understand you would have understood - I have reads, but I have no strong reads. It's day 1 and there's nothing to form a strong opinion off. There are people I wouldn't wagon or vote out today! There are also lots of people that I would!

You keep saying that I try to "fit people in my mold". I'm not sure if you think that it works to discredit what I'm saying or what. Maybe it does. But I think it's pretty clear that that isn't the case, like I talked about earlier when it comes to my reads on S_S, Manatee (and also maybe Enchant) and as I recall you mostly just brushed off.

You say you have reads but no strong reads. Okay. That isn't what this is about to me. To me, this is about a lack of demonstrable evidence for that first claim, that you have reads, even if they're not strong ones. As I said earlier, with the way that you engage people on various topics I would expect some of that style of engagement to also happen on the subject of some reads you have, or even just one. But I don't see that pattern of behavior in your play so far.

Actually, no.

VOTE: Enchant

Eh. I think actually I will vote either of Enchant or Titus. My cold feet on Titus have defrosted, and on Enchant I think it'll be useful to at least see the flip of one side of that 6/6 wagon.

You can't fake not interacting

with each other

.

[Flea The Magician]

If Titus, Gamma and Bee joins the wagon, that'll be all my solid townreads.

I'm typically pretty paranoid of Titus, but she was after Enchant's blood most of the day and she doesn't bus.

Literally the only thing stopping me going back into tunnelling...

and the claim doesn't change my read ftr, scum could've picked UB as much as town.

[Datisi]

vote count 2.02

with 12 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 2 ends in (expired on 2021-09-13 03:15:00).

yeet

Miss Midnight [4]:

PenguinPower, House, ManateeGal, Cat Scratch Fever

Thor Ragnarok [1]:

Auro

not voting [7]:

Flea the Magician, Something_Smart, Thor Ragnarok, Miss Midnight, Gamma Emerald, Titus, Bee

mod notes

~ dual mod iso

flavour

[Flea The Magician]

I think everyone on that Enchant wagon is likely town.

Concur. They at least get a pass until day 2

It is day 2...

I am not wanting an MM wagon today.

Why not? I mean too late but still.

[Something_Smart]

Why would scum box themselves into scumreading another buddy when the one that's currently being scumread is in danger of being eliminated?

Loldistancing?

It happens.

[Thor Ragnarok]

Based on Thor's mechanical spec 98, 326, 664, and 858, he seemed to have good reason to scumread Enchant based off of numbers alone, but Thor never actually placed a vote on Enchant.

I feel like their mutual townreads on each other were pretty flimsy as well.

Fair. My immediate thought after seeing the flip was that I looked absolutely terrible for it. I think I voted for like 3 counterwagons to Enchant or something like that.

Curse his soft and comfy pockets! His meta defense of me was too sweet.

[Titus]

I am not wanting an MM wagon today.

I hope that's not because of some soft or crumb.

This is not a game that would matter in.

I'm outed. I don't leave crumbs as a neighbor unless my hood target wanted a result crumbed.

I don't want MM because a) they voted Enchant b) they're a counter to Enchant and c) [weakest] they're high up in the draft.

[Titus]

Based on Thor's mechanical spec 98, 326, 664, and 858, he seemed to have good reason to scumread Enchant based off of numbers alone, but Thor never actually placed a vote on Enchant.

I feel like their mutual townreads on each other were pretty flimsy as well.

Fair. My immediate thought after seeing the flip was that I looked absolutely terrible for it. I think I voted for like 3 counterwagons to Enchant or something like that.

Curse his soft and comfy pockets! His meta defense of me was too sweet.

Here's the problem I have...you ignored my request to vote Enchant when your setup spec supported it.

[Thor Ragnarok]

I have strange urge to townread Thor.

It was already too late that point, the spell had been cast.

Also, I think would probably join you in voting him if he was my partner because it's an easy opportunity to distance without me being attached to the vote.

[Thor Ragnarok]

I think Thor, Bee, Heley and Helay, MM, House townie enough to pass.

Murder everyone else and we win.

VOTE: Cat

Probably 1 scum in his townies list. House and I are always town. Bee was pushing Enchant a lot.

I'll vote for Miss Midnight or Auro.

[Thor Ragnarok]

Enchant doesn't vote for Miss Midnight when I asked for his help twice and he never explains his townread there. He at one point says gut and at another says he thinks scum can't produce the drawing she produced...

Contrast that to his other townreads which he has plenty of explanations for and I think it may mean she's scum.

I'd vote her but I don't wanna look opportunistic and I'm scared everyone's just gonna jump on board of me any minute now so I will cower under the rug of my attic and only emerge when it is safe outside.

[Thor Ragnarok]

GeorgeBailey

Is a medium role allowing this? There doesn't appear to be one in the setup list (which I carefully examined in the worst's honour), so I'm unsure why Enchant was able to say this and what the relevance of "GeorgeBailey" is. Is that someone in this game?

VOTE: GeorgeBailey to test.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Thor

He's still doing it and the guy who called him out for doing it just died

[Gamma Emerald]

GeorgeBailey

Is a medium role allowing this? There doesn't appear to be one in the setup list (which I carefully examined in the worst's honour), so I'm unsure why Enchant was able to say this and what the relevance of "GeorgeBailey" is. Is that someone in this game?

VOTE: GeorgeBailey to test.

It’s a bah post, how do you not know about them