Mini 658 - Facedown and Thirsty Mafia (Game Over)

[iamausername]

I will use an FoS in lieu of a vote when I suspect somebody, but not enough to warrant the latter.

Yeah, but... the guy had no votes. You presumably didn't suspect anyone else more, since you weren't voting at the time. How could it possibly not warrant a vote? Where is the risk in putting a vote on? You were perfectly happy to hop on a whole bunch of wagons earlier in the day for fairly weak reasons, but putting RandomGem at L-6 was just too risky?

Meh. I've been trying to give my opinion, but it's mostly saying cases aren't good instead of making my own cases. So I regretfully agree. But, OMG, I'm still trying!11!11!1!!1

Well, who do you think is scum then, RandomGem? Because I'm not really seeing the trying.

And if we are in Lylo, then a malthusis lynch by policy would be very unwise... We should wait for his replacement at any rate.

This quote is interesting, because I don't see anyone suggesting any such thing. RandomGem/malthusis partnership? Definitely looks plausible to me.

I was referring to this:

@everyone: I guess that means I'm saying that I would support a policy lynch of malthusis in lieu of lynching Korts today if the rest of the town considers no information at all to be a better reason to lynch than what has been called a weak case, though I would also like some more participation and opinions from our lurkers (CDB, RandomGem, and StrangerCoug).

Huh. Don't know how I missed that.

[StrangerCoug]

I will use an FoS in lieu of a vote when I suspect somebody, but not enough to warrant the latter.

Yeah, but... the guy had no votes. You presumably didn't suspect anyone else more, since you weren't voting at the time. How could it possibly not warrant a vote? Where is the risk in putting a vote on? You were perfectly happy to hop on a whole bunch of wagons earlier in the day for fairly weak reasons, but putting RandomGem at L-6 was just too risky?

By "suspecting somebody, but not enough to warrant a vote", I rarely take the number of votes on the player into account (the excepton comes around at L-2 or so). I didn't like what RandomGem did, but I didn't feel his actions worthy of my vote. It's more of a judgment call thing than anything else.

Sometimes I move my vote around a lot; sometimes I'm hesitant even voting in the first place. I haven't paid much attention to what applies when, but the less certain I am of a particular person being scum, the more I move my vote around. I was unsure of anybody being scum when I FoS'd RandomGem instead of voting him.

[Kairyuu]

Ignoring me still Strangercoug? I still want to here your opinions about who is scum, and I also want you to respond to my accusations.

[StrangerCoug]

I thought I made it clear that I don't have a suspect, Kairyuu.

As for your case on me, thank you for bringing Mokina into my consciousness. I do have reason to believe she is pro-town, but I am unable to explain my copying her other than that reasoning. In fact, I wasn't even aware I was.

[Kairyuu]

So you aren't denying that you tied yourself to her through your actions? Uhh, right.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm not denying it because I don't really think I can do anything along those lines, but I can still avoid confirming it.

[Mokina]

So you aren't denying that you tied yourself to her through your actions? Uhh, right.

Please don't do this. It makes me sad inside.

Having mentioned that, some interesting arguments have been brought up in favor of a StrangerCoug lynch.

I've already noticed the pattern in SC's voting closely follows my own. Keep in mind that this behavior wouldn't necessarily feel scummy in all situations... but this circumstance feels blatant, clear-cut. The newbie argument will cut no ice with me. SC has logged more than 1500 game posts as of now, while I've made less than 400. I'm glad some other people have picked up on it.

FoS: StrangerCoug

I can't help but worry that he's choosing a safe route to avoid being lynched as a protown power role, or simply not thinking for himself. On the other hand, it can't hurt for the town to start looking at StrangerCoug's posts a little more carefully. I certainly will be.

[Kairyuu]

Ok. I've read the article on straw men, but I don't really understand it too well, or see how it applies to this situation. I said he was following you very closely, and he said he hadn't realized that he was, and couldn't explain it other than the fact that he found you pro-town, which is not a denial. Can you explain how that is a straw man argument? Or even how one really works?

[Mokina]

StrangerCoug asserts that he wasn't aware he was copying my actions. The statement "you tied yourself to her through your actions" suggests that he was fully aware of his pattern, and furthermore implies a scummy motivation.

You're basically attaching connotations to his post that weren't actually there.

[Mokina]

You're basically attaching connotations to his post that weren't actually there. Scummy you.

This is an example of strawman. Painful, isn't it?

[Kairyuu]

Ah. I see what you are saying, and I can safely say that you are wrong.

Notice the question mark in my post? I was asking him to clarify. I made no assertion.

[RandomGem]

Have you ever heard of a rhetorical question, which can imply something even when you put it in a form of a question?
---
Okay, I really wanted to keep quiet for today, since in my opinion it equates to free info for scum (since suspicions could just be given the next day), but I think I've been outvoted on that.

Mokina, iamausername - They both look like good town leaders to me (Mokina through the whole game, and iamausername since he replaced in). I'm not particularly suspicious of either.
ChannelDelibird, malthusis, Korts - I don't particularly recall much of anything from these people...
StrangerCoug - He's getting most of the attention now. I'm seeing the logic in the cases on him, but also seeing the logic in his defense, having similar problems myself.
Kairyuu - His case and near immediate vote on Iron Man/Korts was unsettling, given that it's possibly Mislynch=lose, but I suppose it was harmless. At any rate, he's appeared protown to me.

I've found 0/2-3 scum using this process. Hooray.
---
By my count, I, StrangerCoug, and Mokina (3) have voted no lynch, Kairyuu has voted StrangerCoug (1), and we need 5 to lynch/no lynch.

[Korts]

Some comments while reading up.

I wish I could say that the drake wagon was misguided, and probably partly lead by scum, but his posting justifies his initial lynch a hundred percent.

Perhaps this post by RandomGem:

Drake, you defending Kairyuu further supports my case.

My vote stands.

I'm inclined to defend drake too... He started out with poor play, but that last post, even with the bad grammar, seems to me to be at least an attempt... That would be the thing we wanted?

Defending not only drake, and trying to halt his wagon, but Kairyuu also.

Mokina I'm seeing as pro-town in her intentions; she pushes drake for an explanation more than a lynch.

Kairyuu's posting seems kind of strange. Fabricated, I'd say; example:

Ok. That's it. I'm done listening to this Drake. You've used up your last strike by

still

failing to explain yourself properly. Explain yourself. Now.

unvote

vote: Drake_259

Your newbie card has expired. I am treating you as if you were more experienced than I am from now on. I expect a well supported argument if my vote is to go anywhere else for quite awhile.

FOS: DragonsofSummer

for good measure. I'm still suspicious of you because all you have been giving as of late is sparse cases of neutral commentary, almost as if you are trying to watch what's going on without contributing your own opinions. So I must ask you, what are your current suspicions and what is your opinion about the votes on Drake.

Also

FOS: Natirasha

. You've made two posts since you replaced in. One was telling everyone you were here, and the other was a lackluster response to my questions about your suspicions. You haven't actually told anyone who you are suspicious of yet. It would be extremely helpful if you would post something constructive.

This may be just his posting style, but it still feels unnatural. Also, he emphasises on multiple instances that he himself is a newbie, yet gets outraged at drake when he plays the newbie card. This is major hypocrisy.

Okay, I'm still not convinced drake is scum, but quite honestly, I'm getting annoyed by having to read his sentences enough to lynch him.

...What!? It frustrates you enough to the point that he deserves to die? I hope I misinterpreted this, because that's what I'm getting from you.

FoS: RandomGem.

It's an anti-town move by him, but I don't think it's scummy enough to warrant a vote, which is why I'm still hanging on to it.

This post feels fabricated. I can agree with the point it's trying to make, although I'm not convinced RG was serious, but I really don't like how the second part addresses the town overall rather than RG. Coupled with the FoS, it looks a little like "hey, lookie what I found, come wagon".

Sorry, I meant that I was

almost

annoyed enough to lynch him. Meaning I would really appreciate being able to read his sentences without having to go back and decipher what they mean.

>.< EBWOP: Also, I feel that that is the basis for many of the votes on him - just his bad grammar and stuff.

Thanks for clarifying.

Un-FoS: RandomGem

.

These two posts, however, imply to me an SC-RG connection. RG's post is fishy in itself, because it's quite clear the drake wagon is in no relation to his grammar; SC's post is scummy because he fails to point this out, and un-FoSes rather quickly.

Huge FOS: Natirasha

Hammering this early?!

Judging by the posts' lengths, I'd say the game was lagging anyway, a hammer was pretty much due...

And, I'm up to day 2. That took way too long.

[StrangerCoug]

Okay, I'm still not convinced drake is scum, but quite honestly, I'm getting annoyed by having to read his sentences enough to lynch him.

...What!? It frustrates you enough to the point that he deserves to die? I hope I misinterpreted this, because that's what I'm getting from you.

FoS: RandomGem.

It's an anti-town move by him, but I don't think it's scummy enough to warrant a vote, which is why I'm still hanging on to it.

This post feels fabricated. I can agree with the point it's trying to make, although I'm not convinced RG was serious, but I really don't like how the second part addresses the town overall rather than RG.

So I used the word "him" instead of "you". Is that what sets off alarm bells here?

Sorry, I meant that I was

almost

annoyed enough to lynch him. Meaning I would really appreciate being able to read his sentences without having to go back and decipher what they mean.

>.< EBWOP: Also, I feel that that is the basis for many of the votes on him - just his bad grammar and stuff.

Thanks for clarifying.

Un-FoS: RandomGem

.

These two posts, however, imply to me an SC-RG connection. RG's post is fishy in itself, because it's quite clear the drake wagon is in no relation to his grammar; SC's post is scummy because he fails to point this out, and un-FoSes rather quickly.

I thought it was clear the un-FoS takes that into account, therefore I didn't mention it.

[Korts]

So I used the word "him" instead of "you". Is that what sets off alarm bells here?

Yeah, pretty much.

I thought it was clear the un-FoS takes that into account, therefore I didn't mention it.

Did you find RG's EBWOP-post scummy?

[StrangerCoug]

So I used the word "him" instead of "you". Is that what sets off alarm bells here?

Yeah, pretty much.

Kind of trivial then, isn't it?

I thought it was clear the un-FoS takes that into account, therefore I didn't mention it.

Did you find RG's EBWOP-post scummy?

No.

[Korts]

So I used the word "him" instead of "you". Is that what sets off alarm bells here?

Yeah, pretty much.

Kind of trivial then, isn't it?

It's just something I noted while reading.

I thought it was clear the un-FoS takes that into account, therefore I didn't mention it.

Did you find RG's EBWOP-post scummy?

No.

Ok, that's pretty much the answer I'd expect if you were town.

[Kairyuu]

@Korts: Can you elaborate on how my posting has seemed fabricated to you? I can't exactly defend myself if you don't say anything specific.

As for the whole newbie card thing, it is very simple. Throughout D1 I assumed drake to be a newbie, and decided to give him a number of chances. I decided on three strikes, but ended up giving him a few freebies because the things he was doing just seemed like he wasn't thinking about what he was saying. I got fed up when he simply refused to answer any questions directed at him.

I have mentioned that I am new, and that I do not know all of the intricacies of gameplay on this site, or all of the more obscure references (straw men for example). I do not remember ever explaining away my actions based on my being a newbie though. If my memory does not serve, then I apologize, but I can't remember calling myself a newbie to explain why I did something I was called scummy for.

[Mokina]

CDB, where are you? Do you have any thoughts on the current situation?

[StrangerCoug]

Where's the mod let alone CDB?

[Kairyuu]

It seems that yellowbounder has forgotten us, as well as RTDII again. I'll go prod him, again.

[Kairyuu]

I will be experiencing mild to moderate V/LA for about a week.

[Korts]

@Korts: Can you elaborate on how my posting has seemed fabricated to you? I can't exactly defend myself if you don't say anything specific.

There's no need to defend that, it's pretty much the style that I have problems with. It's not a real scumtell by far, just something I noted.

As for the whole newbie card thing, it is very simple. Throughout D1 I assumed drake to be a newbie, and decided to give him a number of chances. I decided on three strikes, but ended up giving him a few freebies because the things he was doing just seemed like he wasn't thinking about what he was saying. I got fed up when he simply refused to answer any questions directed at him.

I have mentioned that I am new, and that I do not know all of the intricacies of gameplay on this site, or all of the more obscure references (straw men for example). I do not remember ever explaining away my actions based on my being a newbie though. If my memory does not serve, then I apologize, but I can't remember calling myself a newbie to explain why I did something I was called scummy for.

No, you didn't use the newbie card to get out of tight spots. However, you did seem very eager to state, on multiple counts, and without provocation that you are also a newbie. Just because you weren't defending yourself with it doesn't mean it's not valid as a tell. You could be pre-emptively justifying an "I told you I'm a newbie" line.

[Mokina]

No, you didn't use the newbie card to get out of tight spots. However, you did seem very eager to state, on multiple counts, and without provocation that you are also a newbie. Just because you weren't defending yourself with it doesn't mean it's not valid as a tell. You could be pre-emptively justifying an "I told you I'm a newbie" line.

Repetition of history much? Throughout D1, drake attempted to justify every action he made. He was the perfect example of someone using the newbie card to get out of tight spots. In the end, he got lynched by a scum-driven wagon and still flipped town.

While acting defensive can be a scumtell, it's

exactly

what players do when they first discover the site, no matter their alignment. At that point, what better thing to play than the newbie card? I don't see defensiveness as an element that particularly implicates Kairyuu, any more than it did drake.

But eh, just two cents.

[StrangerCoug]

The mod hasn't posted on the site since September 30 o_O