The main reason, why traitor is endgamed when it got no teammates is their inability to kill. Mafia insta wins during Goon vs Townie situation, because Goon is capable of killing the townie. In traitor vs Townie, it is not the case so traitor has to be endgamed.
but here...
In post 742, Umlaut wrote:It's interesting that these would elevate the concepts of elo/melo into actual "rules of the game" territory, rather than being derived concepts emerging from the rules as I have always considered them to be.
I'm worried that any attempt to define precisely when a game is in ELo/MeLo is likely to have annoyingly counterintuitive edge cases.
You can get outright paradoxes: some situations would be ELo if a given player is vanilla, but not ELo if they have a power role, so you can reach a situation where the players are in ELo if and only if they aren't in ELo. (A simple, if extreme, example: 2 Bulletproof Townie + ELo Bulletproof Vigilante vs. 2 Goon.)
Split (the opposite of combined, as in combine two abilities into one action but force them to have different targets) and Willbooster are BooneyToonz roles I think could be normal.
Is it possible to add a faction to Normal games that win with the Town, but don't necessarily need the Town?
I know that's always been reserved for "non-normal" games, but the idea of "normal" will continue evolving.
Like 2 "Rival" roles. One in Purple faction, the other in Orange faction: both can kill at Night (or Odd/Even), and both are aligned with Town and need to kill Scum, but also need to kill the other for a complete (100%) win.
EDIT: Even better, they can only kill other Rivals. Can't kill Town or Scum factions. Can even tip off Informed Townies/Scum about it.
In post 756, Wake1 wrote:Is it possible to add a faction to Normal games that win with the Town, but don't necessarily need the Town?
I know that's always been reserved for "non-normal" games, but the idea of "normal" will continue evolving.
Like 2 "Rival" roles. One in Purple faction, the other in Orange faction: both can kill at Night (or Odd/Even), and both are aligned with Town and need to kill Scum, but also need to kill the other for a complete (100%) win.
EDIT: Even better, they can only kill other Rivals. Can't kill Town or Scum factions. Can even tip off Informed Townies/Scum about it.
So a Rival both needs Town to win and the other Rival dead?
That seems unbalanced.
Maybe as a role (not a third-party) that can kill other Rivals, but even that is Themey.
A Rival who wins if the other Rival dies before they do is the archetypal Rival to me, though you'd have to have the winning Rival exit to avoid a Kingmaker scenario.
I think the Town-aligned Rival factions would be a great adaptation to Normal games. We have a Serial Killer faction. A de-facto Town-aligned faction should be considered.
In a smaller Normal game it could be a bit constrained, but in a larger Normal game it would be interesting.
I think in order for base Mafia to grow it needs to slowly expand in all areas. Since 5 years ago the amount of Normal roles and modifiers have increased dramatically. It needs to continue, and not just with roles and modifiers, in my opinion.
Or an "Emperor" faction would be neat. Where 1-3 players ("Soldiers") are aligned with the Emperor and know who the Emperor is, but the Emperor does not know who/what is aligned with that player. The Soldiers would have to keep the Emperor alive at all costs through discourse, and in general would have no abilities. The Emperor would have no abilities either. I was thinking the Emperor/Soldiers could either be a stand-alone faction that needs to kill Town/Scum (like a SK-like group that can't NK, or be Town-aligned. If the Emperor does then the Soldiers revert to VTs.
One role I used in the past many years ago was the "Usurper" role. It was just a SK that couldn't NK. A 3rd-party VT. Looking back, I'd make it so that if it's the last 1 of 2 with either Scum or Town it would win. But it'd be all by itself, can't kill, and would have to have a silver tongue and be cunning to survive throughout the whole game.
I think it is not a good idea to use these alignments here. It is the exact opposite of what we want in Normal. There's town, there's scum, if there are MANY players there might be additional groupscum(or one of these almost never used Serial Killers). But town does not have to take alignments with more complex motives into account. And in a Normal it should not have to.
In a normal Town does not have to worry about redirection and vote manipulation.
I'd argue those kinds of roles shouldn't be normalized in part because I think they are unfun ways to play. If I signed up for a game of mafia and my win condition was a survivor that can't win with town or mafia I would be a little annoyed about it.
Serial Killer is the sole exception because you can use a lone Werewolf to emulate it (unless you want to run a game that is both multiball and SKattic)
Serial Killer is the sole exception because you can use a lone Werewolf to emulate it (unless you want to run a game that is both multiball and SKattic)
nitpicky, but by normal guidelienes, membrers of a groupscum can't be solo
Serial Killer is the sole exception because you can use a lone Werewolf to emulate it (unless you want to run a game that is both multiball and SKattic)
nitpicky, but by normal guidelienes, membrers of a groupscum can't be solo
then I just inadvertently stated that Serial Killer should be denormalized
