Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Ythan]

Have you considered something close to "mostly normal" games in the theme queue with their own guidelines as to what constitutes "mostly normalcy"?

[Ythan]

Seems like the ideal (within the existing queue arrangement) place to test roles and modifiers for potential inclusion in the real normal list as well.

[Jake The Wolfie]

I mean, The Mini Theme Queue ain't exactly poppin'

[Gamma Emerald]

Booneytoonz exists you guys >:(

[Ythan]

I mean, The Mini Theme Queue ain't exactly poppin'

My suggestion would if anything help with that problem I think.

Although as Gamma points out it's not really my suggestion this is a thing that has been tried before with success.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Booneytoonz exists you guys >:(

?

[Ythan]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=77822

[Jake The Wolfie]

I mean, The Mini Theme Queue ain't exactly poppin'

My suggestion would if anything help with that problem I think.

Although as Gamma points out it's not really my suggestion this is a thing that has been tried before with success.

I'm just saying, the Moderator Queue is Empty, the only game that's in sign ups right now is Cook's Pick your

Poison

Policy game, and the latest to fire off (SCP UPick) took ~9 days to fill, and that's a proper themed game.

Although, now that I think about it, I should probably run a UPick of my own
Maybe call it "Saltoon UPick"

[Gamma Emerald]

I’ve had a game in the works for like a year that kinda has hit every snag in the books but I intend to run it as a Booneytoonz entry once I get it in shape

[Ythan]

But like, if the queue is empty, and the kind of games you want are best suited to that queue,

[Ythan]

But like, if the queue is empty, and the kind of games you want are best suited to that queue,

@Jake

[Jake The Wolfie]

I'm just not the person to run that type of game. I prefer running Theme games (and maybe Themed games) rather than Normalesque games.

no this is not trama from the first time i ran a mini normal

[Cook]

the only game that's in sign ups right now is Cook's Pick your

Poison

Policy game

YES GOOD FILL PLEASE

[Ythan]

That makes sense. I think it's a good option when someone (a mod specifically) does want to step just a toe outside the normal queues though.

Pedit at Jake again

[Jake The Wolfie]

In any case, I feel like running a game soon, but I doubt I'll get anyone to come join it without drumming up some hype

[implosion]

OK so what ARE you guys able to allow, because so far all you're doing is shooting ideas down.

For one example, Shield that TemporalLich just mentioned is something I personally like/think has potential. I think care needs to be taken in expanding the whitelist, because every role added adds some inherent overhead/advantage for players who are intricately familiar with normal games, so I only want to add roles and modifiers that both fit in with the idea of normalcy and serve some design utility.

In case the general procedure of an update is unclear, roughly I try to find ideas (from this thread, from other people in the NRG, from my own brain) and pitch them to/ask the NRG for more. I generally listen to consensus from the NRG on what ideas are good, and there's rarely perfect consensus on roles (because most of the "obvious" roles and modifiers have been added, but sometimes there will be one that everyone will be like "yeah that should have been added earlier" like disloyal for example I think everyone agreed on). If there isn't consensus I'll err on the side of leniency/strictness depending on factors like how big the update is/whether I feel like there needs to be much more added at that moment/etc.

(To Ythan's point yeah, this thread was created as a place for me to list new changes officially, but it's also turned into a place for normal game discussion in general which I encourage)

However, what about players who want to know what to expect, but at the same time want a more complex game? Your position seems to exclude them from playing in Normal games, which means they either move to Theme games (which means they might not always know what to expect, and they might not want to play a themed game), go to Mishmash (HaaH), or to go offsite completely (where Normalcy might vary wildly, or where none might exist.)

People have said most of this, but: there's no perfect answer to this because more queues thins things out. A partial answer is that there are some mods (e.g. Gypyx, Boonskiies back when booneytoonz was in the normal queue) who have a reputation for pushing the envelope on what normal means and I'm okay with that (Gypyx is the newest NRG member, after all). Another partial answer is that if there's demand for games like that, they can be run in the theme queue under absolutely whatever parameters the mod wants - there is precedent for plenty of "almost normal" games being run. But there is a degree to which I like the normal queue to be "homogeneous" in the sense that a player can just /in without looking at who's modding or who reviewed the game and know what to expect. It's the normal queue, from the name, the games should be normalized and there shouldn't be that much difference between how they feel to play. It's a balancing act (pun not intended).

If you want a game like that in the mini theme queue, ask around if anyone you know or any mods you like, especially who have modded similar games, would be interested in modding it. I could imagine that if there were demonstrably high player demand for that kind of thing then it could become an official or unofficial institution of sorts (unofficial in the way booneytoonz is).

[Cook]

i would 100% be down for running "almost normal" games. mini theme seems to be my jam for a queue. push the boundaries. see what you can get away with.

or, in the opposite direction, take Basic roles. they're the roles and modifiers you should fundamentally know to start your mafiascum career. whitelist changes — i'm in charge of it — but it's really low-level stuff like 1-shot cop. you would expect to see 1-shot cop or an ungated doctor in your average mafiascum game.

is normal about being a cross-section of mafiascum? or is it about seeing how you can work within limits to create mechanics and dynamics interfacing?

[Wake1]

How about a sub-section in the Normal forum for "Almost Normal" games, where variations and concepts could be tested to see how they work? That way it could be an easier way to facilitate evolution of Normal games.

[Gypyx]

sounds like putting the graylist into place but with extra steps lol

personally i'd be fine with it, although maybe splitting up the normal queue isn't the best idea, a rotation could be better?

[Wake1]

Anything that facilitates new ideas being implemented and then evaluated in mostly Normal play. Could there be a review of the game by mods/NRG just to get their feedback on how it went and any pros/cons of the tested role?

[Ythan]

Could there be a review of the game by mods/NRG just to get their feedback on how it went and any pros/cons of the tested role?

Smart

[Ythan]

Possibly a lot of work but there's bound to be ways to mitigate that.

[Wake1]

Could there be a review of the game by mods/NRG just to get their feedback on how it went and any pros/cons of the tested role?

Smart

Is that sarcasm or genuine?

Can't tell.

[Ythan]

Genuine.

[Gamma Emerald]

How about a sub-section in the Normal forum for "Almost Normal" games, where variations and concepts could be tested to see how they work? That way it could be an easier way to facilitate evolution of Normal games.

sounds like putting the graylist into place but with extra steps lol

personally i'd be fine with it, although maybe splitting up the normal queue isn't the best idea, a rotation could be better?

Maybe what you do is you have a group of trusted mods on file that can run Almost Normal games, iirc the newbie queue has a list of moderators who are basically trusted to handle those games well. And what you do is just sorta run an Almost Normal setup periodically, maybe like once every 3 months
Also I have some ideas I’ve been kicking around but they’re kinda being reserved for one setup in particular I’ve been working on for about a year off and on