ChaosOmega's Mini Normal Review, September 2021

[implosion]

Setup (13 players):
1x Mafia Simple Goon
1x Mafia Complex Goon
1x Mafia Goon
1x Mafia Traitor
1x Town Doctor
1x Town Jailkeeper
1x Town Vigilante
1x Town Roleblocker
5x Townie

Role PM's:

You are a

Townie

.

Passive Abilities:

n/a

Active Abilities:

n/a

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

You are a

Town Doctor

.

Passive Abilities:

n/a

Active Abilities:

Doctor: Each night, you may target a player. If successful, that player will be protected from one kill that night.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

You are a

Town Jailkeeper

.

Passive Abilities:

n/a

Active Abilities:

Jailkeeper: Each night, you may target a player. If successful, that player will be simultaneously roleblocked and protected from all kills that night.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

You are a

Town Vigilante

.

Passive Abilities:

n/a

Active Abilities:

Vigilante: Each night, you may target a player. If successful, that player will be killed.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

You are a

Town Roleblocker

.

Passive Abilities:

n/a

Active Abilities:

Roleblocker: Each night, you may target a player. If successful, that player's active abilities will be blocked that night.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

You are a

Mafia Goon

.

Passive Abilities:

Factional communication: Your partners are XXXX and YYYY. You are also aware that another player in the game is a traitor. You may communicate together in a private topic at any time, located

here

.

Active Abilities:

Factional kill: Each night, you may target a player. If successful, that player will be killed. Only one member of your team may use this ability each night.

You win if at least one member of the mafia is alive and all other players are dead, or if nothing can prevent the same.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

You are a

Mafia Simple Goon

.

Passive Abilities:

Factional communication: Your partners are XXXX and YYYY. You are also aware that another player in the game is a traitor. You may communicate together in a private topic at any time, located

here

.
Simple: Your active abilities will be roleblocked if you target a player who is not vanilla.

Active Abilities:

Factional kill: Each night, you may target a player. If successful, that player will be killed. Only one member of your team may use this ability each night.

You win if at least one member of the mafia is alive and all other players are dead, or if nothing can prevent the same.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

You are a

Mafia Complex Goon

.

Passive Abilities:

Factional communication: Your partners are XXXX and YYYY. You are also aware that another player in the game is a traitor. You may communicate together in a private topic at any time, located

here

.
Complex: Your active abilities will be roleblocked if you target a player who is vanilla.

Active Abilities:

Factional kill: Each night, you may target a player. If successful, that player will be killed. Only one member of your team may use this ability each night.

You win if at least one member of the mafia is alive and all other players are dead, or if nothing can prevent the same.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

You are a

Mafia Traitor

.

Passive Abilities:

Traitor: You know that XXXX, YYYY, and ZZZZ are aligned with the mafia.

Active Abilities:

n/a

You win if at least one member of the mafia is alive and all other players are dead, or if nothing can prevent the same.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

Opening post:

Mini Normal XXXX

Reviewers: xxxx & yyyy

Players:

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13

Spoiler: Alive

Spoiler: Dead

Rules:

Rules

1. Obey all site-wide rules.
2. Have fun.
3. #0080FF is my color, please do not use it.
4. No small or invisible text or cryptography.
5. To vote someone, either bold your vote or use vote tags. If your vote isn't bolded or vote tagged, it will not count. Unvotes are not necessary to change your vote.
6. During the day, a player will be eliminated when they have more than 50% of the players currently alive voting for them. Once that amount has been reached, they're dead; no unvotes will save them. Players can post in the thread up until I post the end of day scene and the thread is locked. You may also VOTE: End Day if you wish for the day to end without an elimination. Voting to end the day only requires 50% of living players to be locked in.
7. Once it has been posted by me that you are dead, you're dead. Do not post any more, not even a bah post.
8. Every day will have a deadline of 12 days. Extensions will be given for extreme circumstances.
9. Nights will have a deadline of 2 days. If you have a night action and do not send one, you will do nothing. You may also send me Fast Night; if I receive this from all living players, the next day will start immediately.
10. If 36 hours pass without a player posting or saying they will be V/LA, I will prod them. For the purposes of this rule, the weekend counts as 24 hours. Players will be replaced if they would receive a 4th prod or do not respond to the prod with 24 hours.
11. Please PM me if you have any questions about the game.
12. If anyone breaks any of the aforementioned rules, I have complete control over the actions that will be taken. Additionally, any situation not explicitly covered above is subject to my discretion and will be handled as I see fit on a case-by-case basis. I may modify the rules at any time, you will be notified if this occurs.

Setup Information:

All players with access to a PT may talk in the PT at any time.

Sample Townie Role PM

You are a

Townie

.

Passive Abilities:

n/a

Active Abilities:

n/a

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

[implosion]

Primary: Isis
Secondary: implosion

[implosion]

4:9 is a hard sell; I think my inclination is that it should almost certainly be accompanied by some kind of public setup information or an informed role or something that it's 4:9 (possibly including that one of those is a traitor) because the norm being 3:10 means that town will assume they're not yet in MELO at 9 players alive, and they'll be potentially very annoyed if they lose before they think they should (and conversely if they eliminate 3 scum and still don't win).

That's before considering balance and obviously there's a lot of negative utility in scum. I'm not 100% sure if simple goon/complex goon work as roles, because e.g. I feel like a mafia simple watcher would have simple apply only to the watch and not to the factional kill. I think it's a problem that the setup as written can (and isn't even all that unlikely) to become hellish for the town on day two, via one miselim + one misfire from the vig leaving it at 10p.

One other thing is I know there's been criticism in the past of setups that have a ton of kill-blocking abilities (one specific setup I'm thinking of) for essentially not letting mafia play the game; you might run into an issue with this kind of design where the scum feel like they're not allowed to play because they have so many considerations between having 3 ways their kill can be blocked and 2 scum who can't even properly make the kill, and town feel like they're not allowed to play because 4:9 becomes very constricting as soon as you make one mis-elim.

[Isis]

This is not normal even if it is publically 4:9 because of the possibility of extra deaths night one.

I feel a passable 4:9 setup would need to be both publicly 4:9 and unable to produce extra deaths at any point in the game (no babysitters or weaks either).

[ChaosOmega]

Agree on vig being a bad call here, I disliked it the more I thought about it. I would rather the setup not have public info that it's 4:9, I would compromise on having an informed role with that knowledge.

According to the Wiki, Simple/Complex affects active roles and the Wiki page for active role specifically mentions mafia goon.

What about something more like this:

Mafia Simple Goon
Mafia Complex Goon
Mafia Goon
Mafia Traitor
Town Indecisive Roleblocker
Town Jailkeeper
Town 1-shot BP Bodyguard
Town Informed Traitor-Finder (informed that there are 4 mafia)
5x VT

[ChaosOmega]

Or replace the roleblocker with something like a Town Neapolitan if there's still a concern of too much kill-blocking.

[Isis]

I don't think informed addresses the heart of my concern. It's highly plausible the informed goes unclaimed and is nightkilled night one or night two, resulting in a <normal> game with strong incorrect assumptions about the timing of eLo that are too far from current player expectations.

That's stricter than implo's stance but I'm primary

[ChaosOmega]

That's fair. I'm just curious for balancing, has there ever been a mini normal run that was 4:9?

I want to change the setup a bit if it being 4:9 is public knowledge:

Mafia Goon
Mafia Finder Enabler
Mafia Traitor Mailman
Mafia One-Shot Bulletproof Traitor
Town Traitor-Finder
Town Follower
Town Jailkeeper
Town Simple Watcher
5x VT

[Isis]

You can create ambiguity with "Town can lose before day 4", maybe, suggesting the warning might just be about lots of weak and vig when it's actually about lots of scum.

[Isis]

Oh I was ninjaed

[Isis]

Is post 7 for public knowledge of 2 traitor 2 groupscum or public knowledge of 4:9?

[ChaosOmega]

4:9

[Isis]

I think that's prolly fine since players should expect wonky once they know it's 4:9, but needed to know

[Isis]

This is really hard to evaluate for balance but I think it's what you want? It seems like town can win, jk and follower are 50% effective correctly targeting "that person no one seems to want to lim"

[Isis]

By what you want I mean, "what one wants for 50% win probability"

[ChaosOmega]

Bump. Waiting for implosion, will post updated role PMs once he signs off on setup.

[implosion]

A lot of the time when I secondary I give a bunch of feedback upfront and then it goes fully off my radar and i forget i secondaried :p

It's probably in the realm of balanced but it is exceptionally swingy; follower, jailkeeper, and simple watcher all have the potential to dead-to-rights catch one of the scum at which point they're at the mercy of immediately losing if the other scum also goes down. This is mitigated because those roles (follower/jailkeeper) might find the traitors scummier than the real scum though.

Ultimately it's Isis's decision if she wants to pass, my signoff isn't required; I think I might in theory replace one of those roles but town needs a fair amount of power and I'm not sure exactly what I'd replace any of them with. Jailkeeper is probably the most suspicious of them because the only other parity-flip in the game is the bulletproof traitor. Isis might have differing opinions on any of this though.

[Isis]

How would you feel about changing the goon to a watcher enabler for antiswing and calling it a setup

I'm loathe to remove hard-hitting prs from a four scum setup

[ChaosOmega]

I'm ok with that. Will write Role PMs tomorrow.

[Isis]

Cool

[ChaosOmega]

Setup (13 players):
1x Mafia Finder Enabler
1x Mafia Watcher Enabler
1x Mafia Traitor Mailman
1x Mafia One-Shot Bulletproof Traitor
1x Town Traitor-Finder
1x Town Jailkeeper
1x Town Follower
1x Town Simple Watcher
5x Townie

Role PM's:

You are a

Townie

.

Passive Abilities:

n/a

Active Abilities:

n/a

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

You are a

Town Follower

.

Passive Abilities:

n/a

Active Abilities:

Follower: Each night, you may target a player. If successful, you will learn what action that player performed during the night.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

Mod note (result PMs):
"XXXX performed a kill action." (Mafia factional kill)
"XXXX performed a jailkeep action." (Jailkeeper)
"XXXX performed a miscellaneous action." (Mailman)
"XXXX performed a role investigation action." (Traitor-Finder)
"XXXX performed an action investigation action." (Simple Watcher)
"XXXX did not perform an action last night."
"No result" (if targeted by Jailkeeper)

You are a

Town Jailkeeper

.

Passive Abilities:

n/a

Active Abilities:

Jailkeeper: Each night, you may target a player. If successful, that player will be simultaneously roleblocked and protected from all kills that night.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

You are a

Town Simple Watcher

.

Passive Abilities:

Simple: Your active abilities will be roleblocked if you target a player who is not vanilla.

Active Abilities:

Watcher: Each night, you may target a player. If successful, you will learn who targeted that player during the night.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

Mod note (result PMs):
"XXXX was targeted by YYYY."
"XXXX was not targeted by anyone last night."
"No result" (if targeted by Jailkeeper, if player targets a not vanilla role, or if Watcher Enaber is dead)

You are a

Town Traitor-Finder

.

Passive Abilities:

n/a

Active Abilities:

Traitor-Finder: Each night, you may target a player. If successful, you will learn if that player is a traitor or not.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

Mod note (result PMs):
"XXXX is a traitor."
"XXXX is not a traitor."
"No result" (if targeted by Jailkeeper or if Finder Enabler is dead)

You are a

Mafia Finder Enabler

.

Passive Abilities:

Factional communication: Your partner is XXXX (Mafia Watcher Enabler). You may communicate together in a private topic at any time, located

here

. You are also aware that two players in the game are traitors.
Finder Enabler: When you die, the Finder role will cease to function for all players with that role.

Active Abilities:

Factional kill: Each night, you may target a player. If successful, that player will be killed. Only one member of your team may use this ability each night.

You win if at least one member of the mafia is alive and all other players are dead, or if nothing can prevent the same.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

You are a

Mafia Watcher Enabler

.

Passive Abilities:

Factional communication: Your partner is YYYY (Mafia Finder Enabler). You may communicate together in a private topic at any time, located

here

. You are also aware that two players in the game are traitors.
Watcher Enabler: When you die, the Watcher role will cease to function for all players with that role.

Active Abilities:

Factional kill: Each night, you may target a player. If successful, that player will be killed. Only one member of your team may use this ability each night.

You win if at least one member of the mafia is alive and all other players are dead, or if nothing can prevent the same.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

You are a

Mafia Traitor Mailman

.

Passive Abilities:

Traitor: You know that XXXX and YYYY are aligned with the mafia.

Active Abilities:

Mailman: Each night, you may target a player. If successful, the moderator will anonymously send that player a message of your choice (specified when you submit this action).

You win if at least one member of the mafia is alive and all other players are dead, or if nothing can prevent the same.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

Mod note:
Player targeted will receive message in this format:

You have received a message from a player.
Note: The message below is from another player and information in the message is not confirmed to be true by me.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

You are a

Mafia One-Shot Bulletproof Traitor

.

Passive Abilities:

Traitor: You know that XXXX and YYYY are aligned with the mafia.
One-Shot Bulletproof: The first time a successful kill action targets you at night, you will be protected.

Active Abilities:

n/a

You win if at least one member of the mafia is alive and all other players are dead, or if nothing can prevent the same.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

Opening post:

Mini Normal XXXX

Reviewers: Isis & implosion

Players:

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13

Spoiler: Alive

Spoiler: Dead

Rules:

Rules

1. Obey all site-wide rules.
2. Have fun.
3. #0080FF is my color, please do not use it.
4. No small or invisible text or cryptography.
5. To vote someone, either bold your vote or use vote tags. If your vote isn't bolded or vote tagged, it will not count. Unvotes are not necessary to change your vote.
6. During the day, a player will be eliminated when they have more than 50% of the players currently alive voting for them. Once that amount has been reached, they're dead; no unvotes will save them. Players can post in the thread up until I post the end of day scene and the thread is locked. You may also VOTE: End Day if you wish for the day to end without an elimination. Voting to end the day only requires 50% of living players to be locked in.
7. Once it has been posted by me that you are dead, you're dead. Do not post any more, not even a bah post.
8. Every day will have a deadline of 12 days. Extensions will be given for extreme circumstances.
9. Nights will have a deadline of 2 days. If you have a night action and do not send one, you will do nothing. You may also send me Fast Night; if I receive this from all living players, the next day will start immediately.
10. If 36 hours pass without a player posting or saying they will be V/LA, I will prod them. For the purposes of this rule, the weekend counts as 24 hours. Players will be replaced if they would receive a 4th prod or do not respond to the prod with 24 hours.
11. Please PM me if you have any questions about the game.
12. If anyone breaks any of the aforementioned rules, I have complete control over the actions that will be taken. Additionally, any situation not explicitly covered above is subject to my discretion and will be handled as I see fit on a case-by-case basis. I may modify the rules at any time, you will be notified if this occurs.

Setup Information:

All players with access to a PT may talk in the PT at any time.
There are confirmed to be four players aligned with the mafia.

Sample Townie Role PM:

You are a

Townie

.

Passive Abilities:

n/a

Active Abilities:

n/a

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Confirm by replying with your role name.

[ChaosOmega]

Bump. I'm next in the queue, is this a pass or does something need to be changed?

[Isis]

"action type" would be a smidge better for follower.

The BP wording is raising some questions I don't have the answer to lol. I kind of think the word successful does more harm than good but not sure. As written it would be expended even if the mafia says "I can't get into prison, therefore you don't die", because there is no reason to regard jail confinement and BP saves as different reasons for unsuccess?

[ChaosOmega]

Will change Follower to "Follower: Each night, you may target a player. If successful, you will learn what type of action that player performed during the night."

For BP, the ambiguity there appears to be present regardless of the wording. The Wiki lists the example for one-shot BP as "You are protected from the first kill that targets you.", but that runs into the same problem if they're jailkept and targeted for a kill. I'm fine changing the wording, but not sure what to. How about "The first time you would be killed at night, you will be protected from one kill."?

[Isis]

Mafia rules engines have sucked for eternity, it is never improbable that the roles pulled from the whitelist are themselves the source of the problem.

The proposed wording is probably good enough and I consider it passed although I think it is still susceptible to certain ambiguities.

If I had a free canvas I'd want to copy umbralogic and use "the first time you would be flipped and removed from the game due to a kill attempt at night, if you're a 1-shot bulletproof, instead you will be converted to a 0-shot bulletproof. You will not be informed of this. Once you are a 0-shot bulletproof this ability is furthermore ignored." That unambiguously resolves doctor+bulletproof in favor of the bulletproof with regard to early expenditure of the vest when a doc save occured during the first attempt, even though it's internally consistent and very balanced to just have early vest expenditures concurrent with doc saves.

I think I implo would urge the importance of wordcounts that don't run off the reservation and prolly say just to use your second proposed wording. It doesnt use the word "successful" which I appreciate since there can be a parade of horrible a for misinterpreting the word successful given the wrong readership.