newbie 2080: correct statements (this is over)

[schadd_]

;

[Galron]

Do people think one or both scum were against Cook's plan?

So you have Cook as town?

[DArby]

I'm good with elem'ing either Cook or Spangled. Any objections?

So are these two just the scum team to you? Or are you just certain there's one scum between them?

I’m more sure on Cook than Spangled.

I'm good with elem'ing either Cook or Spangled. Any objections?

There's a week left for D1 - why are you trying to raise a wagon, or get people to agree to one, this early? Very odd how you're jumping the gun like this. And you haven't posted why you read them as scum, now or before. Your post feels like scum fishing for support.
I'd quote some of your previous posts, but there aren't any relevant. Wanting to lock on an elim this early is not town behavior
VOTE: DArby

I see it the opposite way. Roughly four days have passed with little happening. I don’t think it’s right to say pushing for a wagon is scummy because I’m interacting with the only two real people of suspicion. Spangled is getting townread for a high post count when a vast majority are asking questions and then responding to those questions

after

someone answered. I don’t see that as towny. I don’t want blind trust to build. I don’t see how Cook can post a strategy she tried as a scum in a previous game (24) and it not seem more suspicious? I take back my post 160 claim, though. I read it again and I think my read was the only emotional one which tainted the rest of my read of the post.

You said you’d quote more but you can’t. What do you mean specifically?

I stand by 181. I don’t see how getting unsubstantial reads and asking light questions is scum hunting. I think we need to get real reactions with real pressure.

Giving Roden a town read.

galron I'm not sure how you came to that read after only 5 posts, can you explain your thinking? you mentioned you were a "town hunter" before

Now you're here Galron, still waiting to see why you townread Roden?

A little more familiarty with him.

so what is it about his behaviour or tone that suggests he’s playing to his town meta and not his scum meta?

Nothing in particular. Just a feeling.

Didn’t Roden literally just won newbie 2076 virtually unquestioned as scum singlehandedly? (congrats btw) Galron is still on my radar.

[Galron]

I'll take your word for it.

Roden, do you think you've posted enough for me to have a TR on you?

[Roden]

Going by post count at the time you TR'd me, I didn't have much content yet but I've been locktown'd for less, so it's nothing that pings me atm. I'd only be suspicious of it if I was a major scum read, I've said this in other games but scum love to town read me and defend me when I look scummy to get that sweet town cred if/when I flip green.

Tbh I'm more interested in who you scum read since Spangled is a town lean for you now.

[schadd_]

Val89 replaces Mewtaph

if you grind glass into small enough pieces it becomes perfectly safe

vote count 1.2

Cook (2):

MargotRosa, DArby

MargotRosa (1):

Cook

Thynhith (1):

Roden

DArby (1):

Thynhith

not voting (4):

Facebones, Val89, Galron, Spangled

with 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-10-10 13:35:00)

[Thynhith]

I'm good with elem'ing either Cook or Spangled. Any objections?

So are these two just the scum team to you? Or are you just certain there's one scum between them?

I’m more sure on Cook than Spangled.

I'm good with elem'ing either Cook or Spangled. Any objections?

There's a week left for D1 - why are you trying to raise a wagon, or get people to agree to one, this early? Very odd how you're jumping the gun like this. And you haven't posted why you read them as scum, now or before. Your post feels like scum fishing for support.
I'd quote some of your previous posts, but there aren't any relevant. Wanting to lock on an elim this early is not town behavior
VOTE: DArby

I see it the opposite way. Roughly four days have passed with little happening. I don’t think it’s right to say pushing for a wagon is scummy because I’m interacting with the only two real people of suspicion. Spangled is getting townread for a high post count when a vast majority are asking questions and then responding to those questions

after

someone answered. I don’t see that as towny. I don’t want blind trust to build. I don’t see how Cook can post a strategy she tried as a scum in a previous game (24) and it not seem more suspicious? I take back my post 160 claim, though. I read it again and I think my read was the only emotional one which tainted the rest of my read of the post.

You said you’d quote more but you can’t. What do you mean specifically?

I stand by 181. I don’t see how getting unsubstantial reads and asking light questions is scum hunting. I think we need to get real reactions with real pressure.

Giving Roden a town read.

galron I'm not sure how you came to that read after only 5 posts, can you explain your thinking? you mentioned you were a "town hunter" before

Now you're here Galron, still waiting to see why you townread Roden?

A little more familiarty with him.

so what is it about his behaviour or tone that suggests he’s playing to his town meta and not his scum meta?

Nothing in particular. Just a feeling.

Didn’t Roden literally just won newbie 2076 virtually unquestioned as scum singlehandedly? (congrats btw) Galron is still on my radar.

I believe that Cook believes the strategy is a legitimate one. It's been used by town as well, and I'm not surprised scum!cook would suggest it considering it's low success rates, but potential towncred. Well the strat is NAI, but if Cook were pushing it too hard, then you might have something.
I'd quote some of your past posts that back up your call to wagon, but there aren't any. I wouldn't have as much as an issue if you'd actually showed signs of scumreading cook/spangled earlier. Being so inconsistent does not make you look townie. If you do want to get "get real reactions with real pressure," why do it by trying to lim early D1? If I were scum, I'd laugh it off.

If you were able to lim Cook/Spangled within the next few days, would you do that?
you're both on my radar now (Galron moreso)

[Thynhith]

I do think it's funny Galron said he isn't pocketing me and then town read me soon afterward lol. But going off his past games I don't think scum!Galron would do that. And no I'm not trying to get comfy in his pocket here.

Is it that you don’t think he’d do that as scum, and he must be therefore town, or just that it’s something he could do as town?
(which leaves him open to being scum, of course)

‘cause that’s a small reason to rule him out of being scum; a small reason to essentially locktown him

I never said anything about him being lock town.

I've played a few games with him now, and I'm just starting to pick up on his general tone. I think it's easy to scum read him due to his tone, but it softens a bit when he's scum and he falls a bit more into the background. This is just an assumption but it seems like a natural self-preservation thing to me.

So for me I guess it's less that he town read me off of so little and more because his tone so far is a bit of a meta tell. I'm not town locking him but he's definitely a town read for me.

@Roden about your meta tell of Galron, do you feel it has changed at all? How confident are you of it? It sounds like not a great deal of difference between scum!Galron and town!Galron. And he does seem to have fallen "into the background" as you say, though hard to say how much.
Imo his tone would normally indicate scuminess - his posts are abrupt and dispassionate, and he seems to be not contributing much, nor engaging. What's your current read of him?

[Spangled]

Spangled is getting townread for a high post count when a vast majority are asking questions and then responding to those questions

after

someone answered.

mate, I did that

once

sorry, that’s just such a silly misrep

[Spangled]

I'm townleaning spangles.

weren’t you scumreading me before? what’s changed?

A re-read of the game.

What did you see, in your reread?

[Thynhith]

I'm townleaning spangles.

weren’t you scumreading me before? what’s changed?

A re-read of the game.

What did you see, in your reread?

Spangled is getting townread for a high post count when a vast majority are asking questions and then responding to those questions

after

someone answered.

mate, I did that

once

sorry, that’s just such a silly misrep

Ironic, you did it a second time right after you said that..

[Val89]

Cook, Roden, nice to see you again. Everyone else, it is a pleasure to make your acquaintance. Given that we appear to be well past RVS, I will dispense with the trademark first post bullshit and dive right into my opening thoughts.

Those thoughts are around this:

I believe that Cook believes the strategy is a legitimate one.

I gave this game a brief skim before I approached Schadd_ to replace in, and obviously the discussion of Cooks 'strategy' was the stand out feature. I have a reaction to it that, frankly, I am surprised no one appears to have brought up yet and I strongly disagree with the above.

We are playing a NewD3 setup, in the newbie queue. I understand it is called "NewD3'' because it has replaced previous newbie setups, and while I haven't looked into it, it is possible the previous setups were replaced because they were found to have balancing issues pertaining to strategies which grant a town advantage, but I fully suspect this setup was designed to be resistant to such strategies, and it appears to be a setup that has stood repeated testing. Nonetheless, I grant that Cook may well be the player to crack it - that is something I can believe - that Cook has, or at least believes herself to have, come up with a strategy that exposes a flaw in NewD3 and leads to a town advantage.

I am being asked to believe, however, that having done so, she then rolls scum in 2075 and, rather than sit on that strategy until she gets a town PM, she is so keen to get it out in the wild, she goes ahead and acts in a way that she believes is detrimental to her faction? No; that doesn't pass the sniff test to me.

I haven't sat and gamed out all the possibilities just yet, but on that basis alone I suspect the strategy is at best, neutral, and perhaps even beneficial to scum. It appears to me that we lose information we might ordinarily gain from seeing the somewhat normally 'free' choice of N1 nightkill we get if the game proceeds as is usual, with no PR claims going into N1. In any case, even if it's not immediately apparent why it's bad, the fact that it was first proposed by Cook playing scum, when it would have been very easy to hold it in reserve for a town game, suggest that Cook doesn't actually believe it to be legitimate, if by legitimate Thynhith means 'leads to a town advantage'.

I admit I am struggling to see why Cook would go ahead and propose the same thing again if it +scum, but the above is sufficient for me to have serious questions about her motives and enough to place my vote there. On the question of the actual strategy itself, I think we claim as is usual - that is to say, you

don't

claim, as any PR, unless you are at E-1 or otherwise have a very good reason to.

VOTE: Cook.

[DArby]

Spangled is getting townread for a high post count when a vast majority are asking questions and then responding to those questions

after

someone answered.

mate, I did that

once

sorry, that’s just such a silly misrep

It's really not but allow me to elaborate and clarify.

The emphasis was supposed to be that a huge chunk your post count is you asking questions. The italics were there to show that you add back and forth with your responses which also brings up your content size. I meant it as a "but wait there's more" kinda way. When writing that last part 110 and 142 came to mind. But again, that wasn't supposed to be the real argument.

You are being townread by content size in 160, 189, and I don't think it's a stretch to add 196 by 1/3 of the participants. I'm critical of that because i fail to see how "sheer content" is a townleaning thing.

[Spangled]

I swore I would do it yesterday, and the day before, and I did it neither of those times
so here’s a readslist

I think Facebones is probably town, for reasons I’ve detailed before — the buddying paranoia, the sharp questions right out of the gate
with a little more content I could probably solidify that read a little more

I like Cook more lately, I thought the pressure vote on MargotRosa was good — although it could have been OMGUS, too, I guess, but that can be from town — and I think her introducing the strategy is NAI. Hell, think about it — sooner or later, we’re going to find the game where she introduced the strategy as scum, and suspect her because of that. But she does it anyway, which, considering that, frankly looks towny. but that’s so WIFOMy that it should be just considered NAI, in my opinion. I liked her explanation for why high content can mean town, about which I meant to engage with her but never did, and I like her tone a little more lately. not a high tr but still a reasonable one

same goes for Thynhith, I like their kind of hardball, almost combative tone in these last few posts
170’s tone is a little weird, though
but overall I like their pushing and their kinda, insistent, piercing questions, how they’re noticing things that look like inconsistencies and pushing people for them
anyway, more of a townlean than it used to be, maybe a tr

uhhh Roden
I thought the first bit of 137 was

weird

nice small pressure push on Thynhith
some meager amount of townpoints for some of their earlier posts, like I think I’ve said before
null-bucket, maybe nearing towniness

Margot Rosa’s not looking that great, so far, but there’s not enough to read her on really truly
I thought 161 was

awful

I mean, ‘calling out bad plays’ but so far the only ‘bad play’ she’s ‘called out’ has been Cook’s
just the tone in general isn’t great
I don’t know, I really want to see how her read on Cook evolves over time
I mean, I get not having enough time/sleep for this game, but she has once or twice posted in other games and not posted in this one
low in the nullbucket, so far

DArby! a jojo’s fan and thus inherently suspect
ahem
It sounded like he had a strong scumread on Galron at the start, pulling out strong phrases like ‘anti-town busywork’, and he promised to take a look at Galron’s meta, but it never really materialised
I don’t get why that hasn’t been revisited
but I guess there hasn’t been much time in which to do that anyway, and what do I even expect from a ‘revisit’
I have to be careful of OMGUSing him here, really, but I did think it was weird when he went straight for Cook and me in a kind of, ‘alright wagon time’ when there are two/three slots not doing much and one of which hasn’t even repped in
at least wait for Mewtaph’s replacement to establish some kind of presence, dear lord
I do think his reason for scumreading me could easily come from town, though, and his critique of me so far as ‘giving unsubstantial reads and asking light questions’ is fair
in response, it’s hard to dig deeper when people keep not answering those same ‘light’ questions
I don’t know, I’ll throw him in the null basket

Galron
speaking of ‘light’ questions, I don’t like how he keeps answering-not-answering mine
I thought about quoting them here, but some are in a couple of pretty long quote pyramids
anyway, his semi-frenzy of activity at the start followed by very little activity after people started scumreading him is just so not good
and his scumread on me, also retracted a little after people started townreading me with just ‘I did a reread’ as the reason
just the ‘coincidence’ of him responding like that is scummy, I think
and y’know I get that being scumread takes away your energy for a game, it feels bad, but just all of his stuff feels off to me
he’s a scumlean, so far

anyway you can probably see that I’ve gotten hungrier and hungrier by the way this has become more rambly over time, as well as making progressively less sense
so I make look at this again and revise, that’s not the right word but I’m sure you know what I mean

and pedit batman those are new posts including an entrance into the thread give me some time and then I’ll look at them

[Spangled]

You are being townread by content size in 160, 189, and I don't think it's a stretch to add 196 by 1/3 of the participants. I'm critical of that because i fail to see how "sheer content" is a townleaning thing.

actually no let me respond to this one and then go away and then come back

so let me get this straight, I’m scummy because other people are townreading me for a bad reason?

[Galron]

I'm townleaning spangles.

weren’t you scumreading me before? what’s changed?

A re-read of the game.

What did you see, in your reread?

A hint you may be town.

[Val89]

In more concrete terms; here is scum!Cook outlining the scum side of the strategy in 2075s Mafia PT:

Okay, I figured out the strategy.

This is a modification of a superplaying strategy I made for Town.

Day One, I'm going to ask the Tracker to claim and to post results from now on and for protectives to be on that claimed Tracker, should they exist.
Reasoning: If the Tracker gets roleblocked then we know we're in the A2 (JK, Tracker vs Roleblocker) setup. If they get a result we treat that as a soft clear of that player.
As no Tracker exists, this means we publicly "eliminate" setups A2, B1, and B3.
Day Two, I'm going to ask for a Cop to claim and to post their clear from last night. If Cop claims, I ask for protectives to stay on Cop. The trick here is that there's no protectives if Cop claims and Townies aren't going to lie as that will directly harm Town. And then we just shoot the Cop, and we just confirmed we're in C1, both publicly and privately.
If no Cop claims then you claim Cop with a clear on a scummy player. If a Jailkeeper pipes up to counter this claim then I'll shoot the Jailkeeper the next night. If Masons claim to counter this claim then that's our next two shot targets and then Town is left without a power role to spare.
What your fakeclaiming Cop also does is in the event that you die, your scummy clear looks like it's trying to clear a partner, and then Town might go after them.

It is apparently a "modification" of a super strategy for town, presumably meaning there is some tweak here that stublely turns it from +town to +scum.

For completeness, here is the post in that case where Cook outlined the strategy to town in that game.

Now, compare and contrast that to how it was outlined in #76. You would expect some slight modification if this was a town!Cook now outlining the REAL +town superstrat - the secret sauce that means scum can't do the above. Except I can't see a difference. It looks

EXACTLY

the same.

In fact, the fact that it appears to be this obvious is giving me some slight pause. Is she really as audacious as to go ahead and pull the same thing again in plain view and expect not to be found out straight away? You would have to expect to see some modification to the strategy for this to be +town now when the exact same thing was outlined as +scum to her scum partner in 2075, but unless I am being totally dim, I can't see it.

Can everyone else put some eyes on this and tell me what it is I am missing here?

[Galron]

so I make look at this again and revise, that’s not the right word but I’m sure you know what I mean

You've come up with a baseline, assuming town, why wouldn't you revisit and revise?

[DArby]

You are being townread by content size in 160, 189, and I don't think it's a stretch to add 196 by 1/3 of the participants. I'm critical of that because i fail to see how "sheer content" is a townleaning thing.

actually no let me respond to this one and then go away and then come back

so let me get this straight, I’m scummy because other people are townreading me for a bad reason?

No but I do feel your reaction is a bit suspicious to how I'm pushing you. I've never once said I scumread you. I have said that I think you're townread isn't earned and I think you should be pushed for it. My specific wording in 202 was that, "I don’t want blind trust to build." The fact that you're reading that as me scumreading you is interesting because I'm not saying what you think I'm saying.

Now I am scumreading you a bit, yes, but not because other people are townreading you.

[Galron]

Can everyone else put some eyes on this and tell me what it is I am missing here?

My view is that it's herding cats, and without an effective sales pitch, never comes together. 7 people are not going to agree to any plan, let alone this one. I assume that 3 or 4 may decide to follow it, and if so that torches the plan and makes town vulnerable. Without a buy in by all players, scum have the advantage.

My personal view is that I don't want to participate in a potentially game-breaking strategy, so I will never agree to such a plan. In these confined I'd rather not be part of a kind of a Kobayashi Maru scenario.

[Galron]

Terse and dispassionate is actually a good description of me, Spangled. Unless I get a couple of drinks in me

[DArby]

DArby! a jojo’s fan and thus inherently suspect
ahem
It sounded like he had a strong scumread on Galron at the start, pulling out strong phrases like ‘anti-town busywork’, and he promised to take a look at Galron’s meta, but it never really materialised
I don’t get why that hasn’t been revisited
but I guess there hasn’t been much time in which to do that anyway, and what do I even expect from a ‘revisit’
I have to be careful of OMGUSing him here, really, but I did think it was weird when he went straight for Cook and me in a kind of, ‘alright wagon time’ when there are two/three slots not doing much and one of which hasn’t even repped in
at least wait for Mewtaph’s replacement to establish some kind of presence, dear lord
I do think his reason for scumreading me could easily come from town, though, and his critique of me so far as ‘giving unsubstantial reads and asking light questions’ is fair
in response, it’s hard to dig deeper when people keep not answering those same ‘light’ questions
I don’t know, I’ll throw him in the null basket

First, unrelated, but yoooooo JoJo ᕙ(˵ ಠ ਊ ಠ ˵)ᕗ

Second, I'm not going to wait to actually play the game until everyone else feels good and ready. If assuming you're town, I get what you're trying to do but it's not really my style. Why pay with time to go after inactive slots when I can get the source of content for free?

Third, my opinions are going to change when I get new information. I developed a lesser read on Galron and decided that wasn't going to get me where i wanted to go.

[Galron]

I don't understand the town reads on facebones

[Galron]

Val89's catchup posts, if that's what they are, underwhelm me. Cook's strategy isn't going to be implemented, and while it's fine to talk about players' reactions to the proposal, focusing on the substance of the strategy is futile, and I believe of little value when it comes to reads. (Maybe other than Cook's, but I haven't seen it yet)

[Galron]

I'm flip flopping on Spangled.