Mini 2241: The Neighborhood -- ENDGAME

[unwnd]

My two scumreads being a lurker slot and Gamma who is pretty thorny doesn't inspire a lot of me. The whole 'that's jus how I feel' and 'not great pelts' is because I have an innate sensation that goes through my head where challenge = good. It's why I enjoy playing on the hardest difficulty in games and then suffering because of it. It's why I'll spend time doing something that's making me tilt but can't put it down. I get bored if something doesn't push me and it's the same with Mafia. Right now I think this game is still exciting to me because I have a lot of unknown and I've enjoyed tinkering silently on it.

Gamma/MCat don't have the content to dissect enough and they've been placed at the bottom based on the trajectory of the thread. MCat is here and not posting, his very last post was trying to clarify up his previous posts and explain them. I don't feel the gesture was necessary for one and it doesn't match his frustrated nature? The whole 'Gonna quit because I always get wagoned D1'. I just didn't buy it. I don't think MCat is a slouch even if I can't pin down what exactly drives him. My thought since then was that if MCat really wanted to prove his worth he would show it. Even Navi facing elimination left a few dying words. MCat continues to sink and I guess people are just alright with letting him. The guy won Paragon so clearly in his heart's heart there is something stirring in him even from the very little he saw. Instead of choosing to examine those points, he glossed it over and is now nowhere to be seen.

Force MCat to do something and see what comes of it. I don't think MCat has a pronounced scumgame either and is known for not having the the same passion. I think he leans more on social manipulation because it's probably really difficult to meet Paragon standards as scum logically but such is labels. This is why I don't think his complaints earlier make it any better because he should be aware of the expectations. If my read is presumptuous then given everything discussed I should be able to be easily looked like a fool for doing it. I've been waiting on that moment and it hasn't come, and I'll never resolve the gut feeling at this rate.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

LLD do you still think I'm super evil baddie of bad

Pending outcomes of anyone claiming other protective outcomes that could supercede the Worst, ask me after that's done?

Cause if the worst is town, or at minimum if the worst is gambitting and will be re-evaluated later?

Then I need to do a full re-evaluation of the game from a "worst and I are tvt perspective"

and that stuff I talked about with the Worst and Navi's wagons would mean there's only a few people who I could reasonable be suspicious of, I think...

[Gamma Emerald]

I protected unwnd last night lmaoo

Nuh uh. I highly doubt this is real.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I protected unwnd last night lmaoo

Nuh uh. I highly doubt this is real.

I mean, do we benefit from treating it as real for one day? I think we do.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

It's still worth having anyone who has an alternate solution to no kill claim, though.

No other claims, just "if my ability could stop a kill..." then claim. Otherwise, don't.

[unwnd]

Gamma I don't have as much to say about. Gamma is someone who I believe as town needs to get his say in. I've seen him try to replicate this as scum--but his timing is more off when he rolls red. He doesn't interject because it just absolutely holds him aghast that someone/something could happen and Gamma just

needs

to speak upon it, he does it for show. He also is more direct in how he displays that side. The whole 'fuck off' and other pointed accusations at people for misreading something didn't seem like a constructive Gamma who I believe (and he's free to tell me wrong) enjoys looking good as town. What I mean by this is that I feel Gamma is someone who inspires himself based on

1) How much people are reading his posts
2) How willing others are towards him

Having a moment like that once or twice is not definitively why my read had flipped, rather time has shown that I've seen a lot of posts from Gamma that could do without. Made not because he desires feedback from others but rather he is oddly restrictive. A town gamma maybe tells me to fuck off but also then uses that propulsion to do something with it. Gamma's been treating me like I exist but afraid to object, and I think that fear is something that is reminiscent to his scum behavior where he doesn't want to panic. Gamma is cautious, withdrawn, and surprisingly OK with a lot of things. If Gamma is trying to work on himself then I respect that notion, but this is a game and how I'm reading his behavioral patterns makes me believe he's scum.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Gamma I don't have as much to say about. Gamma is someone who I believe as town needs to get his say in. I've seen him try to replicate this as scum--but his timing is more off when he rolls red. He doesn't interject because it just absolutely holds him aghast that someone/something could happen and Gamma just

needs

to speak upon it, he does it for show. He also is more direct in how he displays that side. The whole 'fuck off' and other pointed accusations at people for misreading something didn't seem like a constructive Gamma who I believe (and he's free to tell me wrong) enjoys looking good as town. What I mean by this is that I feel Gamma is someone who inspires himself based on

1) How much people are reading his posts
2) How willing others are towards him

Having a moment like that once or twice is not definitively why my read had flipped, rather time has shown that I've seen a lot of posts from Gamma that could do without. Made not because he desires feedback from others but rather he is oddly restrictive. A town gamma maybe tells me to fuck off but also then uses that propulsion to do something with it. Gamma's been treating me like I exist but afraid to object, and I think that fear is something that is reminiscent to his scum behavior where he doesn't want to panic. Gamma is cautious, withdrawn, and surprisingly OK with a lot of things. If Gamma is trying to work on himself then I respect that notion, but this is a game and how I'm reading his behavioral patterns makes me believe he's scum.

What's your thoughts on Meg

[unwnd]

I don't like them but I'm not as familiar with them. While I said something to the effect of 'let's not gripe about the Navi elim' to you, I almost wanted to take it back because MCat/Gamma/Meg were all voting Navi and that's my bottom-half. I talked about Meg before where I think they're fanning the flames in a lot of conversation but muted everywhere else. My problem with this is that if you're going to act in a accusatory and direct way, it must show somewhere in your reads or what you want to see the thread develop into.

With meg, it really doesn't. So it just sounds like chatter with an edge to it. What good is that though?

[the worst]

I protected unwnd last night lmaoo

I'm going to shout this to the heavens, that if anyone has claims that can counter-claim this or provide another reason why someone didn't die, if town, you HAVE to claim it.

Because if we have nothing else in the town, that's 2 confirmed townies and we can do a lot of work from there.

omg she's asking for counterclaims to a softclear while she's under the spotlight

this is literally scum trying to do as much damage as possible while going down holy shit

[the worst]

I protected unwnd last night lmaoo

Nuh uh. I highly doubt this is real.

i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt because i am wrong on you before i'm wrong on LLD:

why?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I don't like them but I'm not as familiar with them. While I said something to the effect of 'let's not gripe about the Navi elim' to you, I almost wanted to take it back because MCat/Gamma/Meg were all voting Navi and that's my bottom-half. I talked about Meg before where I think they're fanning the flames in a lot of conversation but muted everywhere else. My problem with this is that if you're going to act in a accusatory and direct way, it must show somewhere in your reads or what you want to see the thread develop into.

With meg, it really doesn't. So it just sounds like chatter with an edge to it. What good is that though?

Mm mmm.

I'd be tempted to sheep you on whichever one of those 3 you think is most likely to flip scum today. If The Worst is likely town, you're even more likely town here barring a counter claim, and if you're town and I'm on the wrong track, I feel like your reads probably have some strength in them at that point.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I protected unwnd last night lmaoo

I'm going to shout this to the heavens, that if anyone has claims that can counter-claim this or provide another reason why someone didn't die, if town, you HAVE to claim it.

Because if we have nothing else in the town, that's 2 confirmed townies and we can do a lot of work from there.

omg she's asking for counterclaims to a softclear while she's under the spotlight

this is literally scum trying to do as much damage as possible while going down holy shit

Do you really detest me so much that you're incapable of seeing that this is the literal correct play for town to do in nearly every case?

It has nothing to do with rolefishing, my dude. Not only does this allow us to protect from a gambit by you, it also means we can say "Claim now or forever hold your peace" to a bunch of people and confirm you as town minus a N1 no kill which is... ridiculous, honestly.

[unwnd]

I think I would like to vote MCat the most due to my reasons and the whole make him do something.

I'm not trying to agitate him or make the experience unplayable, because I have a lot of faith he can prove me wrong. Until then I haven't been and I'm gonna follow my instinct.

VOTE: MURDERCAT

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think I would like to vote MCat the most due to my reasons and the whole make him do something.

I'm not trying to agitate him or make the experience unplayable, because I have a lot of faith he can prove me wrong. Until then I haven't been and I'm gonna follow my instinct.

VOTE: MURDERCAT

Having literally not seen MC since I replaced in, I'd also like to see what they do. Did something happen? You're talking like there's eggshells around this one or something?

Vote: Murdercat

[the worst]

Do you really detest me so much that you're incapable of seeing that this is the literal correct play for town to do in nearly every case?

It has nothing to do with rolefishing, my dude. Not only does this allow us to protect from a gambit by you, it also means we can say "Claim now or forever hold your peace" to a bunch of people and confirm you as town minus a N1 no kill which is... ridiculous, honestly.

very far from detesting you, i actually respect you a lot.

you're correct insofar as we are better off spending this phase treating unwnd as cleared (myself less so but like, I'll take it!).

you're absolutely not correct that it's valuable for people to claim contrary reasons for no kill to have occurred before massclaim. TPRs would be better off collecting at least another night of info before outing imo esp. if we're already treating unwnd as softcleared. we can't remove all ambiguity in this until postgame so i think there's very limited utility in removing a little bit of ambiguity.

[the worst]

Going to a wedding this weekend, really don't have the time or the energy to fight the wagon. "He's scummy when he's here" and then you just quote my iso with no real reasoning and people hop on like always. Think I'm retired after this game, me getting run up D1 every game is not fun for anyone.

The worst is still town, house maybe scum if Navi town but the vote swap seemed too blatant. Meg most likely scum on my wagon. Gamma ??, Still don't believe that read on me is real

VOTE: Navi

@lld, this i think

[the worst]

if MCat is scum i'll admit i'm likely wrong and he's probably partnered with deeper wolves than LLD
gamma is still a decent option

[MegAzumarill]

Why did Navi the VT die over The Worst, the CLAIMED PR?

i feel like scum can be uncomfortable pushing a claimed PR based on optics? even if it would have technically been the optimal thing to do, if i were scum in this game i would have been incredibly uncomfortable trying to push that wagon through knowing how hard it would be to justify how it looks with the flip.

Not only that, from a scum perspective they also probably don't know if Navi is a PR, and Navi would theoretically be much harder elimination on a later phase than TW (as if TW's role was confirmable as town they'd probably have said so) I'd say its still a viable choice for scum to pick a navi wagon over TW there.

I don't really enjoy your attitude of "can't have anything scummy against me ever be valid"
It feels very chainsawy and self-preservy.
Doesn't give off solvy vibes, just

trying to stay alive

vibes

Breaking this down point by point

1) Navi is not a harder elimination than the worst as proven by yesterday. Navi was checked out and elimination bait, the worst is actively defended.

Navi was primarily scumread do to giving up (for lack of a better term) under pressure. They easily could have jumped back in the town's eyes with convincing d2 play. TW's scumcase is built on specific interactions that numerous people find scummy, which is unlikely to change how people feel about said interactions in the future (without flips) Ergo, a TW scumcase would be an easier push on any future day than a navi push.

2) "Can't have anything scummy against me ever be valid" You haven't provided anything scummy. You've said, and I quote "LLD's entrance is bad" and "I reconsidered and it's still bad". Well, I don't think my entrance is bad, and more over, I know I'm town so why would I agree with your assessment here? Not only are you not saying anything about WHY my entrance is bad that I can defend myself against, but also you're talking as if you expect me to agree with you that I'm scummy somehow.

I think some valid points have been brought up by TW that I agree with. You treat them mostly with how I describe in 2.1

2.1) Also, I have, infact, copped to several things I've done this game. Including when Dwlee said I went 0 to 100. If you'll recall, I said "yep I did that, I don't agree it's scummy". So I have, infact, agreed to what others are saying. Your issue here is that I won't admit to being scummy which, given I know my rolepm says town, would be literal game throwing to do.

You admit here that you aren't responding with actual defense of your actions, just stating that they aren't scummy. Exactly my point as to why they don't hold weight or serve as a defense of your position. Also the GT argument here is very strong language for something literally every townie does in some way or another each game. (nobody looks perfectly townie, that's an unrealistic standard)

3)That's not what Chainsaw means. Chainsaw means defending someone else. Much like the way you defended the Worst yesterday. Chainsaw means stepping in front of someone else's questioning line to defend a person when you're not involved. For someone who agreed that I was apparently using buzzwords yesterday, you're using one here and misapplying it.

I'm sorry if I misuse the term here, though in this context I was using it as "countering an argument by discrediting it instead of challenging it"

3.1) I'm being self preservationist because I know I'm town and I'm arguing against bad arguments? I would note that I have yet to do any kind of self preservation arguments, but even if I have, defending yourself against pushes and making others see you as town is as important to being town as catching scum is. It's not scummy to argue why you're not scum.

You agree that trying to accurately sort slots is important. But i don't see any evidence of you trying to do that this game. In fact I have given evidence to the contrary (will quote next post)

4)I have literally been trying to solve this game since the moment I entered, and you should know this because that entrance of mine you are critiquing? The one you say is scummy? Involves me trying to solve and sort Dwlee's alignment. I have also stated townreads on several players, and even given a semblance of a readslist to explain my positions on multiple players.

This doesn't feel like the case and I have already shown why it doesn't seem that way (see following quote)

4.1) "Just trying to stay alive": see 3.1

Your argument holds no water, as explained above, and none of this is remotely a good reason to scum read someone.

Further, your focus on me lays bare something interesting. For someone concerned that I'm not doing any solving? Why aren't you trying to solve the game, Meg? You're hyper focusing on me and giving basically nothing while doing it, why aren't you engaging in other places trying to solve?

I have given my poe pool of where I think scum lies. The fact is that you are the slot I would love to see eliminated today. Even if you flip green I don't think you are being reasonable from a town perspective.

Bolded text is added by me. Quote incoming.

[unwnd]

It's a dangerous game when you write a lot and choose to be profound about players and slots. I think one time I wrote a huge wall on Anya and why I thought she was scum and it was like, completely wrong. I read into the situation and then this big mass of wrongthink was in my ISO and it embarassed me.

Whatever though. Be profound and maybe it will inspire others to do the same which I'd much rather play at that rate than just vibing and having sessions from time to time. These are all well in nature but are much easier for scum to fit into. Look active and play a decent part. I again lost a game recently where scum did exactly that and now I'm paying close way more attention to what people are saying and why.

[MegAzumarill]

I think I want LLD dead.

Vibes come off as more "trying to get people to agree with me" instead of "try to accurately sort a slot"

her way of sorting is to tie a noose around your neck and keep tightening it until you die or towntell lol

Alright but she should get some material to make the noose out of first

She's making it out of nothing is what it looks like now

I just joined the game literally less than 24 hours ago, and I've not read anything before when I replaced in. I'm working on what I have, and what I have is some really weak Dwlee posts that contain little reasoning and seem to engender the same apathy into the game I am concerned about existing.

I think that's more than enough to begin with, frankly.

I'm not convinced you are really reading the conversation and are going after someone in spite of context. I don't think you really care what Dwlee is saying.

Spoiler: Evidence

LLD, Gamma, *sees 1189* House

What was so bad about 1189, Dwlee?

Why is Gamma scum, Dwlee?

You would know the actual situation if you had taken 5 seconds to look at the post that Dwlee has mentioned. The fact you didn't tells you don't really care about the question you are asking and its answer.

How would you handle this situation differently if you were actually scum Dwlee? The questions are piling up but like

The floor is all yours right now lol

Probably similarly cause I'd be mimicking my reaction to this in the past. My goal would be to just not get in this situation which I would do by not picking a fight with LLD

I know that you know people have visibly used this argument enough times and seen it work a few for you to understand that

"picking a fight with LLD" is no longer an alignment indicative action that scum are afraid to do. Scum know that it can be argued it's easier to just ignore me, so they pick the fight anyway to hide under it.

This statement holds nothing but air.

This wasn't supposed to be a defense but a response to a question. It feels like you are breaking open a random rock in order to say that the wall of Dwlee's defense is weak.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Do you really detest me so much that you're incapable of seeing that this is the literal correct play for town to do in nearly every case?

It has nothing to do with rolefishing, my dude. Not only does this allow us to protect from a gambit by you, it also means we can say "Claim now or forever hold your peace" to a bunch of people and confirm you as town minus a N1 no kill which is... ridiculous, honestly.

very far from detesting you, i actually respect you a lot.

you're correct insofar as we are better off spending this phase treating unwnd as cleared (myself less so but like, I'll take it!).

you're absolutely not correct that it's valuable for people to claim contrary reasons for no kill to have occurred before massclaim. TPRs would be better off collecting at least another night of info before outing imo esp. if we're already treating unwnd as softcleared. we can't remove all ambiguity in this until postgame so i think there's very limited utility in removing a little bit of ambiguity.

We're not claiming any TPR minus ones that have an ability that can protect people and be an alternate result to you. All people should claim is "Could have stopped the kill last night" or "could not have stopped the kill last night"

why is that such a big info to collect, when it's day 2, we have a no kill N1 and we have the chance to remove paranoia? It makes 0 sense not to do. People are so afraid of using claim info to work games these days I feel, but the truth is that the mafia already need to deal with you if you're town, Worst. So these claims don't hurt us much and they don't stop investigative PRs at all.

[unwnd]

Feeling oddly accomplished with worst saying he saved me and refusing to vote him.

I somewhat have a bad read that Pooky wouldn't kill me because he'd rather fake tunnel me as scum and I was also townreading him. No reason to get rid of me.

[the worst]

... but they explicitly out protective/manipulative TPRs which become more powerful late in the game...?

there's a 0% chance i hardclaim here unless i'd already outed by TPR status.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Why did Navi the VT die over The Worst, the CLAIMED PR?

i feel like scum can be uncomfortable pushing a claimed PR based on optics? even if it would have technically been the optimal thing to do, if i were scum in this game i would have been incredibly uncomfortable trying to push that wagon through knowing how hard it would be to justify how it looks with the flip.

Not only that, from a scum perspective they also probably don't know if Navi is a PR, and Navi would theoretically be much harder elimination on a later phase than TW (as if TW's role was confirmable as town they'd probably have said so) I'd say its still a viable choice for scum to pick a navi wagon over TW there.

I don't really enjoy your attitude of "can't have anything scummy against me ever be valid"
It feels very chainsawy and self-preservy.
Doesn't give off solvy vibes, just

trying to stay alive

vibes

Breaking this down point by point

1) Navi is not a harder elimination than the worst as proven by yesterday. Navi was checked out and elimination bait, the worst is actively defended.

Navi was primarily scumread do to giving up (for lack of a better term) under pressure. They easily could have jumped back in the town's eyes with convincing d2 play. TW's scumcase is built on specific interactions that numerous people find scummy, which is unlikely to change how people feel about said interactions in the future (without flips) Ergo, a TW scumcase would be an easier push on any future day than a navi push.

2) "Can't have anything scummy against me ever be valid" You haven't provided anything scummy. You've said, and I quote "LLD's entrance is bad" and "I reconsidered and it's still bad". Well, I don't think my entrance is bad, and more over, I know I'm town so why would I agree with your assessment here? Not only are you not saying anything about WHY my entrance is bad that I can defend myself against, but also you're talking as if you expect me to agree with you that I'm scummy somehow.

I think some valid points have been brought up by TW that I agree with. You treat them mostly with how I describe in 2.1

2.1) Also, I have, infact, copped to several things I've done this game. Including when Dwlee said I went 0 to 100. If you'll recall, I said "yep I did that, I don't agree it's scummy". So I have, infact, agreed to what others are saying. Your issue here is that I won't admit to being scummy which, given I know my rolepm says town, would be literal game throwing to do.

You admit here that you aren't responding with actual defense of your actions, just stating that they aren't scummy. Exactly my point as to why they don't hold weight or serve as a defense of your position. Also the GT argument here is very strong language for something literally every townie does in some way or another each game. (nobody looks perfectly townie, that's an unrealistic standard)

3)That's not what Chainsaw means. Chainsaw means defending someone else. Much like the way you defended the Worst yesterday. Chainsaw means stepping in front of someone else's questioning line to defend a person when you're not involved. For someone who agreed that I was apparently using buzzwords yesterday, you're using one here and misapplying it.

I'm sorry if I misuse the term here, though in this context I was using it as "countering an argument by discrediting it instead of challenging it"

3.1) I'm being self preservationist because I know I'm town and I'm arguing against bad arguments? I would note that I have yet to do any kind of self preservation arguments, but even if I have, defending yourself against pushes and making others see you as town is as important to being town as catching scum is. It's not scummy to argue why you're not scum.

You agree that trying to accurately sort slots is important. But i don't see any evidence of you trying to do that this game. In fact I have given evidence to the contrary (will quote next post)

4)I have literally been trying to solve this game since the moment I entered, and you should know this because that entrance of mine you are critiquing? The one you say is scummy? Involves me trying to solve and sort Dwlee's alignment. I have also stated townreads on several players, and even given a semblance of a readslist to explain my positions on multiple players.

This doesn't feel like the case and I have already shown why it doesn't seem that way (see following quote)

4.1) "Just trying to stay alive": see 3.1

Your argument holds no water, as explained above, and none of this is remotely a good reason to scum read someone.

Further, your focus on me lays bare something interesting. For someone concerned that I'm not doing any solving? Why aren't you trying to solve the game, Meg? You're hyper focusing on me and giving basically nothing while doing it, why aren't you engaging in other places trying to solve?

I have given my poe pool of where I think scum lies. The fact is that you are the slot I would love to see eliminated today. Even if you flip green I don't think you are being reasonable from a town perspective.

Bolded text is added by me. Quote incoming.

"Even if you flip green, I don't think you are being reasonable from a town perspective."

I don't really want to talk to you anymore. It feels like you just don't like my aggressive playstyle and are either:

scum using this to push me and saying that line to try and absolve yourself for when I flip town

or

town who is more concerned with HOW I am playing than my alignment, and trying to convince themselves that if I do flip town, it wasn't your fault and there was nothing you could have done.

In either case, arguing with you will get me absolutely nowhere and do nothing but frustrate me.

[unwnd]

Going to a wedding this weekend, really don't have the time or the energy to fight the wagon. "He's scummy when he's here" and then you just quote my iso with no real reasoning and people hop on like always. Think I'm retired after this game, me getting run up D1 every game is not fun for anyone.

The worst is still town, house maybe scum if Navi town but the vote swap seemed too blatant. Meg most likely scum on my wagon. Gamma ??, Still don't believe that read on me is real

VOTE: Navi

@lld, this i think

Dude is a paragon, He thought Meg/Gamma were scum on his wagon and I can't see many paragons being so off-base that they go 0/3 even with little activity. It's not enitrely BoP though if you read my own thoughts.