newbie 2080: correct statements (this is over)

[Spangled]

I agree with Val’s assessment that Cook putting forward the same strategy as she did in the scumgame, essentially the same exact one, is incredibly scummy.

However, I’m not going to vote Cook just yet, because, 1), Cook deserves more of a chance to defend herself, 2) the more we get out of Cook the more associatives we can get if it’s a red flip, and 3), there’s no reason to be in a hurry to end this day

[Spangled]

pagetop!

I guess reasons 3 and 1 tie in together, but whatever

I do think Cook’s last post or two sounded like the transition from flailing to almost-given-up-scum, but if Cook’s town this is a good time for her to get some last minute reads out, and Cook if you’re scum well y’know I might still get elimmed, you should probably try your hardest to not die
that is a good strategy!

huh and I guess reasons 2 and 1 tie in together too
and so do 3 and 2
maybe they’re all the same reason

[Val89]

you may think differently but disagreeing on reads shouldn’t be a part of your scumcase of someone.

As you belatedly acknowledge, this is a big misrepresentation. I've already said I

don't

scumread people for having different reads as long as the justification makes at least some sense. Yours doesn't.

You have to think back to what it was like, on page 5 or whatever, whenever I made that Facebones read. Galron had said one-liners and little else — huh actually maybe nothing’s changed here — and by and large all we’d talked about was Cook’s strategy. Very little that was AI there. Sure Roden had been helpful but anyone can post links or be helpful; scum often do it early game to get some sweet, sweet cheap towncred. Not that Roden’s scum, and not that that kinda stuff can’t aid town, but it’s not AI-enough, if you know what I mean.

The problem is, if as you say Galron has mere one-liners, and Roden had only stuff you thought you couldn't really consider AI; then Facebones had

even less

at that point. In fact, he had so little (3 very short posts!), I can post the entire ISO below:

Spoiler: Facebones ISO at the time

Sorry for my absence, I was either sleeping or working. On my lunch break now, but before I go back some food for thought: not reading a player's post due to apathy seems worse than not reading it due to laziness. Galron, is it just Cook's posts you're apathetic towards? Why?

I'm not apathetic toward Cook's posts. I just don't feel like reading them. I guess maybe that is apathy; I don't know. Everyone else's posts are much shorter. That's got something to do with it. Cook could be open-wolfing (I have a personal bias against that term btw), but I don't know.

It seems that if anyone is wolfing (there's that term again) it up again,

I

, and everyone else, would be alerted to it. In a succinct manner ofc.

Unless that person is Cook, because how can you be alert to an open wolf if you don't feel like reading their lengthy posts? Start being more motivated, goddamn it.

hey, Facebones, you reckon DArby’s whiteknighting me a wee bit?

I mean, I guess there's a chance. I have accused people of whiteknighting in the past and been rather embarrassed about the whole ordeal afterwards though. Due to that, and because it's still early stages, I'm gonna put it down to being NAI

How come you're anxious to hear about what Thynhith makes of my entrance? Like, why him specifically?

The first

2

are all you had to go at the time you posted 110 and indicated you had a read on Facebones, and he had simply asked YOU a question when you actual delivered that read in 142.

I don't think anyone can honestly read that as say it is enough "poking and prodding", or "mindmelding" enough to justify any sort of read, never mind such a strong one. Even if I give you a huge benefit of the doubt, and say 'Well, Spangled is just the type to give big reads more on gut and not on a whole lot of evidence', at the same time you had this to say in respect to Roden:

He’s in the null-basket, but what can you expect for 6 posts, I guess

.

I'm sorry, but I can't, even with the best will in the world, tally this up and end up with you as town. I think the simplest explanation is you already knew Facebones alignment for a fact, and are manufacturing the justification. I think it's more likely that's because he is town and not in a thread with you, rather than him being scumbuddies with you, but I am not confident enough of that to townread him on that basis alone. This isn't the only reason I am scumreading you either, but it's a part of it that's fairly compelling to my eyes, and I don't think it can be fairly described as "disagreeing on reads".

[Val89]

In any case, it looks like people think Cook is the better flip for the day, although I still contend there is a chance Spangled and Cook just end up being the team.

With that in mind, I'm wondering if your argument against voting for Cook is scum motivated. 3 days is just enough time I don't think I need to go ahead and vote myself here without a bit of discussion, but I do think we have to be careful not to let this game stall out - which like I said before, I think it has potential for, and I feel will only benifit scum. Clearly, Cook has been quite content to let things ride.

You should all be aware by now what Cook considers the scum playbook for this situation, where no tracker does bite the bullet and claims D1. If you don't, I would consider that fairly negligent if you are town, given how we have gotten here. If you haven't already, go read it now, so you don't have to take my word for it as to what I suspect may well happen next. The first 10 posts are the important part.

It's fairly clear that we may need a day or two for every player to check in to sort out anything that comes as a result of putting a scummy player working from that playbook to E-1, and the only reason I am not doing so myself at this point is in case Cook does decide to depart from that strategy and self-hammer, in a situation where I have two players sat at null reads, and another player who I am scumleaning on the basis of a partial read that might change when she returns to the thread.

If there is any chance of a self-hammer, I want to make sure if there is anyone who wants to say something else that they have had a chance to say it, but because of the above, I am giving notice that my intent is to vote Cook once people have a chance to wiegh in.

[Thynhith]

Fuck me sideways and call me Susan I actually want to get off the wagon I've been pushing all d1.

Eh, I'll sleep on it.

I had this thought soo many times, I'm glad someone else said it as well. Tell us tomorrow how you're thinking, eh?
I'm so fucking paranoid that there's going to be a surprise scum

[Facebones]

Cook, do you have any town leans or scum leans at this point?

[Spangled]

In any case, it looks like people think Cook is the better flip for the day, although I still contend there is a chance Spangled and Cook just end up being the team.

With that in mind, I'm wondering if your argument against voting for Cook is scum motivated. 3 days is just enough time I don't think I need to go ahead and vote myself here without a bit of discussion, but I do think we have to be careful not to let this game stall out - which like I said before, I think it has potential for, and I feel will only benifit scum. Clearly, Cook has been quite content to let things ride.

You should all be aware by now what Cook considers the scum playbook for this situation, where no tracker does bite the bullet and claims D1. If you don't, I would consider that fairly negligent if you are town, given how we have gotten here. If you haven't already, go read it now, so you don't have to take my word for it as to what I suspect may well happen next. The first 10 posts are the important part.

It's fairly clear that we may need a day or two for every player to check in to sort out anything that comes as a result of putting a scummy player working from that playbook to E-1, and the only reason I am not doing so myself at this point is in case Cook does decide to depart from that strategy and self-hammer, in a situation where I have two players sat at null reads, and another player who I am scumleaning on the basis of a partial read that might change when she returns to the thread.

If there is any chance of a self-hammer, I want to make sure if there is anyone who wants to say something else that they have had a chance to say it, but because of the above, I am giving notice that my intent is to vote Cook once people have a chance to wiegh in.

Val, I think you’ve got your mind made up on me and nothing I say will change that. And don’t answer that with a semi-smug ‘yeah nothing should; you’re scum’.

Sorry, I’m so annoyed. I can’t respond logically to your posts. I’ve tried to outline what I thought at the time as best I could, and it hasn’t got me anywhere, and that just makes me mad. Maybe ‘cause I’m way too tired.

I’ll make a considered response tomorrow, after I have had sleep. Or maybe I won’t; this is brickwall-head-trumpet kind of stuff.

Just piss off with the ‘belatedly’ nonsense, it wasn’t belated if it was in time for you to see it, now, was it?
god, your tone, please
I won’t elaborate what I dislike about it; it’s not scummy or anything, if anything semi-self-righteousness is towny, it’s just making me mad
and I did elaborate, a little
damnit

far out, Facebones had said the only AI stuff so far
I stressed that the townpile he was sitting on top of at the time wasn’t large

and my point with how it can be stupid to read others for their reads is that you don’t know what goes on in another player’s head, at any stage, unless they choose to share that, or even if they choose to share it
sure, yeah, you can read others for reads, in fact you sort of have to, to say you shouldn’t is stupid itself, sorry, yeah, but approach that carefully, goddamnit, approach it carefully, because each other person will see the same posts from the same people differently to you

ha, I baited myself into responding
but let me respond more fully later

[Spangled]

sorry

[Facebones]

What are ya saying sorry for?
Ya did nuffin'

[Val89]

Val, I think you’ve got your mind made up on me and nothing I say will change that.

That's not really a fair assesment. You took issue with a part of why I am scumreading you - that I considered the early and strong townread on Facebones when his ISO was 3 very short posts as indicative of TMI.

You responded to that, giving further explaination as to why you said you did. I took that onboard, and examined it. I think my 327, which was probably the post you meant to quote above, is fairly clear evidence I took some time examining that explaination to see it holds. I did so because, if it did, I would have been prepared to adjust my view in light of it. I am afraid though, that it didn't.

I haven't just merely asserted that it didn't. I've done the legwork and linked the posts - all public information - and invited others to look at draw their own conclusions based upon it. Even if its framed as a conversation between the two of us, you weren't actually the audiance for that post, I'm not trying to convince you that you are scum, obviously.

If the issue is that I did write it as if I was talking directly to you in the first person, then I shall refain from doing so in future; but I don't really think it's fair for you to try and suggest I'm not giving you a fair shake as a result of me making a post that takes your explaination and tests it against the available evidence.

[Galron]

This game is super quiet. Thanks, Val, for putting in the effort. Your work on cook seems solid. Somehow it still feels like lhf, but it's a decent case.

VOTE: Cook

[MargotRosa]

I don't agree with all of Margot's reads, particularly about Spangled and Galron, but I do like them. I don't feel great about Darby's alignment but I don't hard scum read him, and at this point Cook is coming off a lot worse.

@Margot:

What makes you put Cook at Null now even though you were going hard at her earlier as being likely scum?

I backed off Cook a bit mostly out of frustration over the whole tracker play thing, and history has taught me that when I'm feeling particularly emotional about a read I need to back off and clear my head. Putting them at null was mostly because I was too worked up about the slot to read clearly. Time has passed though, and some of their recent posts make me more inclined to trust earlier instincts

[MargotRosa]

Margot really doesn't like rvs.

Nope. Honestly, especially when it's a slow game, anyone still doing it after page 2 is automatically on my radar for time wasting

[MargotRosa]

Sorry I've been out of town (pardon the pun) for the last few days, but I have reread or skimmed the entirety of D1 so far.
"Spangled, on the other hand is much more straightforward, and everything else aside, if they aren't the pair; and I have to decide if I am in a newbie game where mafia is trying to scam us with a ridiculous display of open-wolfing, or a more traditional nervous newbscum just slipping here and there slightly, and I think that being honest with myself I have to conclude the latter as more probable."
Val the issue I have here is I think you're tunneling too hard. You're picking up on lots of small "tells" here and there and it looks like a plausible newbscum. I see much of this attributed to personal playstyle. Which posts do you think have a nervous tone to them? His constant questioning seems like his choice, rather than aiming to misdirect town. I would say he is scumleaning at most, and certainly more pro-town than Galron. Both of them I wouldn't lim D1.
My preference for D1 would be Cook, on account of the questionable strat she pushed. I'm not willing to support any wagon yet tho - I feel there's a scum we're not seeing

I love this in a newb game. I like your slot

[MargotRosa]

In more concrete terms; here is scum!Cook outlining the scum side of the strategy in 2075s Mafia PT:

Okay, I figured out the strategy.

This is a modification of a superplaying strategy I made for Town.

Day One, I'm going to ask the Tracker to claim and to post results from now on and for protectives to be on that claimed Tracker, should they exist.
Reasoning: If the Tracker gets roleblocked then we know we're in the A2 (JK, Tracker vs Roleblocker) setup. If they get a result we treat that as a soft clear of that player.
As no Tracker exists, this means we publicly "eliminate" setups A2, B1, and B3.
Day Two, I'm going to ask for a Cop to claim and to post their clear from last night. If Cop claims, I ask for protectives to stay on Cop. The trick here is that there's no protectives if Cop claims and Townies aren't going to lie as that will directly harm Town. And then we just shoot the Cop, and we just confirmed we're in C1, both publicly and privately.
If no Cop claims then you claim Cop with a clear on a scummy player. If a Jailkeeper pipes up to counter this claim then I'll shoot the Jailkeeper the next night. If Masons claim to counter this claim then that's our next two shot targets and then Town is left without a power role to spare.
What your fakeclaiming Cop also does is in the event that you die, your scummy clear looks like it's trying to clear a partner, and then Town might go after them.

It is apparently a "modification" of a super strategy for town, presumably meaning there is some tweak here that stublely turns it from +town to +scum.

For completeness, here is the post in that case where Cook outlined the strategy to town in that game.

Now, compare and contrast that to how it was outlined in #76. You would expect some slight modification if this was a town!Cook now outlining the REAL +town superstrat - the secret sauce that means scum can't do the above. Except I can't see a difference. It looks

EXACTLY

the same.

In fact, the fact that it appears to be this obvious is giving me some slight pause. Is she really as audacious as to go ahead and pull the same thing again in plain view and expect not to be found out straight away? You would have to expect to see some modification to the strategy for this to be +town now when the exact same thing was outlined as +scum to her scum partner in 2075, but unless I am being totally dim, I can't see it.

Can everyone else put some eyes on this and tell me what it is I am missing here?

Ugh. Full disclosure, I started ISO diving your slot to fact check the thing about you going to ask lots of questions and Darby having already asked them, and then I find this and read it properly. It's so good. I hate it

[MargotRosa]

let's not do my strategy this game

next time sure

not this one

i've tried to make it clear by my disinterest in my own wagon that you're in the wrong place

uhh

no thoughts

head empty

this is not an optimal way to try to talk your fellow players down

God, this is honestly policy elim worthy

[DArby]

Fuck me sideways and call me Susan I actually want to get off the wagon I've been pushing all d1.

Eh, I'll sleep on it.

I had this thought soo many times, I'm glad someone else said it as well. Tell us tomorrow how you're thinking, eh?
I'm so fucking paranoid that there's going to be a surprise scum

The more I think about it the more I feel d1 was a waste and Spangled is on to something kind of. So much of d1 is NAI. However, if Cook isn’t scum she’s absolutely anti-town this game. I’m willing to take out this slot. I’m not going to defend a slot that won’t defend themselves.

[DArby]

Margot really doesn't like rvs.

Nope. Honestly, especially when it's a slow game, anyone still doing it after page 2 is automatically on my radar for time wasting

D1 is about to end do you have a finished reads list?

[MargotRosa]

In any case, it looks like people think Cook is the better flip for the day, although I still contend there is a chance Spangled and Cook just end up being the team.

With that in mind, I'm wondering if your argument against voting for Cook is scum motivated. 3 days is just enough time I don't think I need to go ahead and vote myself here without a bit of discussion, but I do think we have to be careful not to let this game stall out - which like I said before, I think it has potential for, and I feel will only benifit scum. Clearly, Cook has been quite content to let things ride.

You should all be aware by now what Cook considers the scum playbook for this situation, where no tracker does bite the bullet and claims D1. If you don't, I would consider that fairly negligent if you are town, given how we have gotten here. If you haven't already, go read it now, so you don't have to take my word for it as to what I suspect may well happen next. The first 10 posts are the important part.

It's fairly clear that we may need a day or two for every player to check in to sort out anything that comes as a result of putting a scummy player working from that playbook to E-1, and the only reason I am not doing so myself at this point is in case Cook does decide to depart from that strategy and self-hammer, in a situation where I have two players sat at null reads, and another player who I am scumleaning on the basis of a partial read that might change when she returns to the thread.

If there is any chance of a self-hammer, I want to make sure if there is anyone who wants to say something else that they have had a chance to say it, but because of the above, I am giving notice that my intent is to vote Cook once people have a chance to wiegh in.

Val, I think you’ve got your mind made up on me and nothing I say will change that. And don’t answer that with a semi-smug ‘yeah nothing should; you’re scum’.

Sorry, I’m so annoyed. I can’t respond logically to your posts. I’ve tried to outline what I thought at the time as best I could, and it hasn’t got me anywhere, and that just makes me mad. Maybe ‘cause I’m way too tired.

I’ll make a considered response tomorrow, after I have had sleep. Or maybe I won’t; this is brickwall-head-trumpet kind of stuff.

Just piss off with the ‘belatedly’ nonsense, it wasn’t belated if it was in time for you to see it, now, was it?
god, your tone, please
I won’t elaborate what I dislike about it; it’s not scummy or anything, if anything semi-self-righteousness is towny, it’s just making me mad
and I did elaborate, a little
damnit

far out, Facebones had said the only AI stuff so far
I stressed that the townpile he was sitting on top of at the time wasn’t large

and my point with how it can be stupid to read others for their reads is that you don’t know what goes on in another player’s head, at any stage, unless they choose to share that, or even if they choose to share it
sure, yeah, you can read others for reads, in fact you sort of have to, to say you shouldn’t is stupid itself, sorry, yeah, but approach that carefully, goddamnit, approach it carefully, because each other person will see the same posts from the same people differently to you

ha, I baited myself into responding
but let me respond more fully later

I just...

Bear with me

But

This is such a clearly blatantly and obviously scummy post, and to imagine it coming as a response to the first bit of concerted pressure the slot has received this game, I'm honestly even more convinced that Spangled is Town

[Val89]

The naked unvote of Margot when she is in no danger at all can be nothing more than an unspoken "I like what you are saying" signal. I have to be careful I am not falling for confirmation bias here, but I wonder what exactly it is about Margots posting that Cook is trying to signal she likes. I'm wondering if anyone else has any gut instinct on what it might be, just so I can be a bit more confident I'm not confbiasing here?

This might have been missed amongst everything else I posted, since nobody has proferred an answer.

Anyone have any thoughts on what Cook was trying to signal with the naked unvote on Margot at 290?

[Cook]

i liked margot's post previous to that.

[MargotRosa]

Margot really doesn't like rvs.

Nope. Honestly, especially when it's a slow game, anyone still doing it after page 2 is automatically on my radar for time wasting

D1 is about to end do you have a finished reads list?

VOTE: Cook is the obvious choice

I like your slot a bit more than I did, but mostly because the arguments Val is making have made sense, and not enough to really change my mind on the slot just yet. I'm less sure about my slight Town lean on Roden, and there is no chance at all I'd vote for Spangled d1, or d2 to be honest. Facebones is so impossible to get a proper hold on, but I'm missing a chunk of posts in between p6 and p10 that have not yet been read really clearly. Not a massive fan of Galron at all. I vacilate on Val a lot, but it's in a similar way to how I vacillate on T3 when they are playing, which makes me think they are likely Town. This said, I don't have many Scum reads, which is something I'll need to rectify for d2

[Val89]

i liked margot's post previous to that.

Yes, that part is obvious.

I have my theory as to what part in particular you liked about it, but I am worrying I am confbiasing, which is why I am eliciting other opinions.

[DArby]

The naked unvote of Margot when she is in no danger at all can be nothing more than an unspoken "I like what you are saying" signal. I have to be careful I am not falling for confirmation bias here, but I wonder what exactly it is about Margots posting that Cook is trying to signal she likes. I'm wondering if anyone else has any gut instinct on what it might be, just so I can be a bit more confident I'm not confbiasing here?

This might have been missed amongst everything else I posted, since nobody has proferred an answer.

Anyone have any thoughts on what Cook was trying to signal with the naked unvote on Margot at 290?

I wasn’t surprised; it comes across as the same way that the slot has been playing. It looks the same level of scum as the rest of her plays. Whether or not she just gave up on playing a real game is to be determined.

Wait I need to count but you just hammered, Margot?

[MargotRosa]

I'm already voting cook. Have been since game start. I was playing for emphasis