newbie 2080: correct statements (this is over)

[MargotRosa]

And what difference does that make?

Let me put it this way. If Cook was town, and you and me were the scum team, what stops us from following the instructions Cook laid out to WhemeStar in the previous game, if the rest of town had been useufl idiots and brought it from her when she starting selling it early on?

Cook isn't going to be posting it in our scumthread, but she doesn't need to, because we can just read it from the 2075 scum PT. Or is she banking her entire factions chance of sucess of us being too dense to go back and read that previous game?

You're assuming that Cook thinks, from the outset, that people are going through her old games to find her new strategies, and also assuming that Cook isn't working under the assumption that noone else is going to come up with the cool new strategy she's come up with

[MargotRosa]

I need to think this over a bit.

Also Roden, just no. Anyone else. It's not Spangled.

[MargotRosa]

For right now, I am going to park my vote on my number 2 most likely to be scum

VOTE: DArby

[Val89]

You're assuming that Cook thinks, from the outset, that people are going through her old games to find her new strategies, and also assuming that Cook isn't working under the assumption that noone else is going to come up with the cool new strategy she's come up with

So in other words, yes.

In your head, the only that stops our theortical scumteam from taking advantage of a town who a town!Cook manages to persaude to buy in to this new fangled strategy is that we don't read her previous game and read step by step how we can take advantange of it as scum AND we don't figure it out for ourselves.

And town!Cook acutally truely beleives its +town, but is wrong. Despite having being able to work out that step-by-step fakeclaiming playbook. But its still not good for scum.

Have I got that right?

[MargotRosa]

You're assuming that Cook thinks, from the outset, that people are going through her old games to find her new strategies, and also assuming that Cook isn't working under the assumption that noone else is going to come up with the cool new strategy she's come up with

So in other words, yes.

In your head, the only that stops our theortical scumteam from taking advantage of a town who a town!Cook manages to persaude to buy in to this new fangled strategy is that we don't read her previous game and read step by step how we can take advantange of it as scum AND we don't figure it out for ourselves.

And town!Cook acutally truely beleives its +town, but is wrong. Despite having being able to work out that step-by-step fakeclaiming playbook. But its still not good for scum.

Have I got that right?

Not quite. Because
a) It's not a good strategy for a scum team to do, because it requires so much AI activity from Scum to push, so Scum going back and employing it is not good, and
b) I don't think these things, I think Cook thinks these things, and I think that the strategies themselves, bad for Town as a general mathematical rule, and bad for Scum if Scum are pushing it because of AI, should indicate pretty clearly that Cook is very capable of believing in things that are obviously not true.

[MargotRosa]

I would like to apologise to Cook if this is all coming across as mean, which is unintended, but almost certainly the case.

[Val89]

a) It's not a good strategy for a scum team to do, because it requires so much AI activity from Scum to push, so Scum going back and employing it is not good

My argument is that is exactly what we are seeing.

THIS is a quote from THIS game:

back now.

Cook's Handy, Dandy Plan

1. Tracker claims Day One. If nobody claims Tracker we just eliminated three setups (A2, B1, and B3).
   Protectives go on the Tracker claim. This will mean that the Tracker is jailkept in A2 and protected in B3.
   
   Tracker reports result D2. If Tracker claims blocked then we know we're in A2 and play the Tracker as an IC. If scum tries to ride the towncred then they're functionally down a player.
   If Tracker claims a result we just go Follow The Cop from here since Mafia only gets a rolecop.
   
2. If no Tracker claims then we have a normal D1 with a normal D1 elimination.
   
3. D2, Cop claims with result. Scum killing either the cop or their clear will result in the other one being IC'd the next day, therefore they must shoot elsewhere.
   
   If Masons exist then one Mason claims Cop with a clear on their partner, since either one dying proves the other one.
   
   If Scum tries to do this with partners then we'll end up 1-for-1'ing cop claims and we'll invariably win.
   
4. If you get an FN message, claim it but not who sent it. If you or the FN are run up to E-1 you may claim the message. We will preserve the FN from elimination for one night to let them send another message, if someone reports it the next day the FN is cleared. Jailkeeper, if there's a claimed FN don't prot them for one night, let them get a message – if scum kills them that leaves us rolecop vs jailkeeper, which we can win. This is our worst possible configuration.
   
5. Prots don't claim unless you're at E-1 or you need to counterclaim.

Is that, or is that not, the strategy from the scum thead in 2075 minus the "psst, we will fakeclaim X at this point" scum instructions?

[Roden]

I need to think this over a bit.

Also Roden, just no. Anyone else. It's not Spangled.

For right now, I am going to park my vote on my number 2 most likely to be scum

VOTE: DArby

This implies that if Cook is town that you think they're wrong about more or less everything though.

I get why you're so insistent about why Spangled is town but a Darby vote just feels off.

[MargotRosa]

Quite aside from anything else;

I find it really bizarre, honestly, that you are this adamant, and honestly this emotionally invested (for the first time this game, I might add), for a vote you claimed to not be particularly sure about not 1 page ago.

I find it interesting also that you voted for Cook as soon as I took my vote off.

Were you worried we were getting too far from elimination and Town was losing interest in the tunnel?

[MargotRosa]

I need to think this over a bit.

Also Roden, just no. Anyone else. It's not Spangled.

For right now, I am going to park my vote on my number 2 most likely to be scum

VOTE: DArby

This implies that if Cook is town that you think they're wrong about more or less everything though.

I get why you're so insistent about why Spangled is town but a Darby vote just feels off.

Again, this is going to sound mean, but my Town read of Cook rests almost entirely on thinking that they're wrong about more or less everything, so yes, I do believe that

[DArby]

The fact we don't have a tracker claim as a pretty obvious start

What? No? Why would a potential tracker claim if there’s not even a plan for them to rely on?

[MargotRosa]

The thing that changed my mind in the Scum PT is that Scum Cook here makes sense to me only if she thinks that her strategy is weighted towards Scum, and only Scum.

But she doesn't. She thinks it works for both. Which she states in the one place that you can trust everything she has to say - a scum PT.

That's fukn bizarre. It's ludicrous. It's obviously wrong. And if she believes that, what other fukn wild things does she believe?

[MargotRosa]

The fact we don't have a tracker claim as a pretty obvious start

What? No? Why would a potential tracker claim if there’s not even a plan for them to rely on?

I know! It's a wild, obviously bad play. Who the hell would do that? But that's the strategy that she lines out in the scum PT. If there is no tracker claim, a member of scum needs to fake claim tracker

[DArby]

The fact we don't have a tracker claim as a pretty obvious start

What? No? Why would a potential tracker claim if there’s not even a plan for them to rely on?

I know! It's a wild, obviously bad play. Who the hell would do that? But that's the strategy that she lines out in the scum PT. If there is no tracker claim, a member of scum needs to fake claim tracker

Oh shit.

Wait no but tracker still wouldn’t claim even as scum. If we assume Cook is scum and uses her scum buddy to claim tracker, why would they still follow through if roughly half of the game is against it? That’d be really suspicious.

[MargotRosa]

It would more or less still fulfill the requirements she sets out in the original scum PT. The point, according to her, is outing Town PRs when you get counterclaimed, which it would still achieve even if it just outs a counterclaiming tracker

[Val89]

DArby, (and everyone else for that matter) I would suggest until we establish whether or not Margot has just had a legimate total-180 on a wagon that she herself describe as "obvious" less than 3 hours ago, I would not take anything she says about the operation of Cooks 'strategy' at face value.

Don't take my word for it either. Read it yourself. Here it is again:

Okay, I figured out the strategy.

This is a modification of a superplaying strategy I made for Town.

• Day One, I'm going to ask the
  Tracker
  to claim and to post results from now on and for protectives to be on that claimed Tracker, should they exist.
  
  Reasoning:
  If the Tracker gets roleblocked then we know we're in the A2 (JK, Tracker vs Roleblocker) setup. If they get a result we treat that as a soft clear of that player.
  As no
  Tracker
  exists, this means we publicly "eliminate" setups A2, B1, and B3.
  
• Day Two, I'm going to ask for a
  Cop
  to claim and to post their clear from last night. If Cop claims, I ask for protectives to stay on Cop. The trick here is that there's
  no protectives if Cop claims
  and Townies aren't going to lie as that will directly harm Town. And then we just shoot the Cop, and we just confirmed we're in C1, both publicly and privately.
  
• If no
  Cop
  claims then
  you claim Cop with a clear on a scummy player
  . If a
  Jailkeeper
  pipes up to counter this claim then I'll shoot the Jailkeeper the next night. If
  Masons
  claim to counter this claim then that's our next two shot targets and then Town is left without a power role to spare.
  
• What your fakeclaiming Cop also does is in the event that you die, your scummy clear looks like it's trying to clear a partner, and then Town might go after them.

This is the claim Margot just made:

If there is no tracker claim, a member of scum needs to fake claim tracker

Decide for yourself if that is correct. Then decide if anyone who makes that claim can be trusted on these matters.

The final decision that needs to made, if you have decided that claim doesn't hold, is if Margot is simply mistaken, and is being accidently usefull to scum, or if there is something else behind it. My jury is still out on that last one, but I've made my mind on the first two.

[MargotRosa]

DArby, (and everyone else for that matter) I would suggest until we establish whether or not Margot has just had a legimate total-180 on a wagon that she herself describe as "obvious" less than 3 hours ago, I would not take anything she says about the operation of Cooks 'strategy' at face value.

Don't take my word for it either. Read it yourself. Here it is again:

Okay, I figured out the strategy.

This is a modification of a superplaying strategy I made for Town.

• Day One, I'm going to ask the
  Tracker
  to claim and to post results from now on and for protectives to be on that claimed Tracker, should they exist.
  
  Reasoning:
  If the Tracker gets roleblocked then we know we're in the A2 (JK, Tracker vs Roleblocker) setup. If they get a result we treat that as a soft clear of that player.
  As no
  Tracker
  exists, this means we publicly "eliminate" setups A2, B1, and B3.
  
• Day Two, I'm going to ask for a
  Cop
  to claim and to post their clear from last night. If Cop claims, I ask for protectives to stay on Cop. The trick here is that there's
  no protectives if Cop claims
  and Townies aren't going to lie as that will directly harm Town. And then we just shoot the Cop, and we just confirmed we're in C1, both publicly and privately.
  
• If no
  Cop
  claims then
  you claim Cop with a clear on a scummy player
  . If a
  Jailkeeper
  pipes up to counter this claim then I'll shoot the Jailkeeper the next night. If
  Masons
  claim to counter this claim then that's our next two shot targets and then Town is left without a power role to spare.
  
• What your fakeclaiming Cop also does is in the event that you die, your scummy clear looks like it's trying to clear a partner, and then Town might go after them.

This is the claim Margot just made:

If there is no tracker claim, a member of scum needs to fake claim tracker

Decide for yourself if that is correct. Then decide if anyone who makes that claim can be trusted on these matters.

The final decision that needs to made, if you have decided that claim doesn't hold, is if Margot is simply mistaken, and is being accidently usefull to scum, or if there is something else behind it. My jury is still out on that last one, but I've made my mind on the first two.

By post 9 in Scum PT, she seems to have landed on the Tracker claim strat as the way to go. Admittedly, one of three, but that is the one she seems to have landed upon

[MargotRosa]

Are you ignoring 408 accidentally, or intentionally Val?

[DArby]

The thing that changed my mind in the Scum PT is that Scum Cook here makes sense to me only if she thinks that her strategy is weighted towards Scum, and only Scum.

But she doesn't. She thinks it works for both. Which she states in the one place that you can trust everything she has to say - a scum PT.

That's fukn bizarre. It's ludicrous. It's obviously wrong. And if she believes that, what other fukn wild things does she believe?

This is all so aggressively WIFOM and defensive for a slot that is anti-tow.

VOTE: Cook

[Val89]

If there is no tracker claim, a member of scum needs to fake claim tracker

By post 9 in Scum PT, she seems to have landed on the Tracker claim strat as the way to go. Admittedly, one of three, but that is the one she seems to have landed upon

There was no tracker claim in 2075, and there would be no legit tracker claim in 2075, because scum knew they were in column C from the get-go. Do you know something about the setup in this game I don't?

Are you ignoring 408 accidentally, or intentionally Val?

Intentionally. I'm deciding if I am engaging in a good-faith discussion here or not.

I am wondering who is benefiting from the your attempt to refocus your unilateral decision to suddenly ease the presure on a slot that basically everyone, including yourself at that point, thought was scummy; and then attempt to reframe my decision to continue that preasure as 'bizarre'.

Who benefits from leaving the Cook question unresolved? I think it can only be scum, frankly.

[Roden]

I need to think this over a bit.

Also Roden, just no. Anyone else. It's not Spangled.

For right now, I am going to park my vote on my number 2 most likely to be scum

VOTE: DArby

This implies that if Cook is town that you think they're wrong about more or less everything though.

I get why you're so insistent about why Spangled is town but a Darby vote just feels off.

Again, this is going to sound mean, but my Town read of Cook rests almost entirely on thinking that they're wrong about more or less everything, so yes, I do believe that

Oof.

I actually believe that you mean this, I don't think scum ever makes a statement like this.

[MargotRosa]

Ok, fine, I'll drop it. I don't know that it's actually amounting to anything other than having people scum read me for, honestly, behaving not only within my Town range, but with a kind of frenzied thought process that is more or less exclusive to my Town range. That's fine.

If Cook flips green, I want Town to bear me on a palanquin until the game end, and if she flips red, idk, fukn do whatever you like

VOTE: Cook

[MargotRosa]

e-1

[Roden]

Margot, Val, you're most likely both town and this back and forth is just gonna make a great cover for scum to hide in. Can you two please call a truce for now so we can figure out what the fuck is going on with Cook in

this

game, not whatever her intentions were in a scum PT in a completely different game from a month ago?

PE: Thank you.

[MargotRosa]

I am inclined to Town read Val I think