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Post Post #1575 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:25 am

Post by House »

In post 1573, Almost50 wrote:
In post 1567, Jacket wrote:
In post 1553, Almost50 wrote:T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)
This is actually close to what I was thinking. Except it makes more sense for cool cookie to be the traitor, since mailman returns a positive to a traffic analyst but a negative to a neighbor finder.
So there are THREE Bulletproofs in the setup? because BOTH me and zen are 1-shot BP. (that's the part we decided he should leave out when he claimed)
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Post Post #1576 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:25 am

Post by Almost50 »

In post 1567, Jacket wrote:
In post 1553, Almost50 wrote:T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)
This is actually close to what I was thinking. Except it makes more sense for cool cookie to be the traitor, since mailman returns a positive to a traffic analyst but a negative to a neighbor finder.
Well.. I could lowkey see your point, with both BP neighbors designed to be -ve utilities for both sides. Scum get failed NKs and Town gets falls +ve (Via COMPLEX VIG though, NOT the TA/Neighbor Finder)

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Post Post #1577 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:27 am

Post by House »

In post 1576, Almost50 wrote:
In post 1567, Jacket wrote:
In post 1553, Almost50 wrote:T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)
This is actually close to what I was thinking. Except it makes more sense for cool cookie to be the traitor, since mailman returns a positive to a traffic analyst but a negative to a neighbor finder.
Well.. I could lowkey see your point, with both BP neighbors designed to be -ve utilities for both sides. Scum get failed NKs and Town gets falls +ve (Via COMPLEX VIG though, NOT the TA/Neighbor Finder)
You don't see the problem with TWO players claiming identical roles AS TOWN?

That... completely flies over your head?

No. Just fucking no.

If you were town, you'd be screaming CC at Zen all day long.
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Post Post #1578 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:28 am

Post by T3 »

In post 1564, House wrote:
In post 1553, Almost50 wrote:@STD: Your "I don't want to lim T3" was the final nail. I already started thinking of the situation when House volunteered to be shot instead of you, and again when he asserted redtea should shoot three again. It looked like a blatant attempt to deter the shot off you (and confirmed the team doesn't have a RB), but if you had voted T3 I probably would have thought it was too crazy to be true.
Wtf.

I don't want StD shot because he hasn't claimed, and if redtea says he's going to shoot there it could out even more power.

Where's your head?!

VOTE: A50
VOTE: house
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Post Post #1579 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:28 am

Post by T3 »

In post 1577, House wrote:
In post 1576, Almost50 wrote:
In post 1567, Jacket wrote:
In post 1553, Almost50 wrote:T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)
This is actually close to what I was thinking. Except it makes more sense for cool cookie to be the traitor, since mailman returns a positive to a traffic analyst but a negative to a neighbor finder.
Well.. I could lowkey see your point, with both BP neighbors designed to be -ve utilities for both sides. Scum get failed NKs and Town gets falls +ve (Via COMPLEX VIG though, NOT the TA/Neighbor Finder)
You don't see the problem with TWO players claiming identical roles AS TOWN?

That... completely flies over your head?

No. Just fucking no.

If you were town, you'd be screaming CC at Zen all day long.
VOTE: a50
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Post Post #1580 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:28 am

Post by Almost50 »

In post 1571, TheZenMan wrote:Wait what? I never said I was okay with a second shot on three, I said the complete opposite.

And I said I was fine with std shot but directly after I wrote I would rather have T3 shot and elim someone else D2.
True that. I misread. You wanted to lim someone else today and shoot T3. Still a weird proposition given T3 is almost confirmed Scum either way.

But let me entertain the idea: Who do you want to lim in T3's stead?

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Post Post #1581 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:29 am

Post by TheZenMan »

Okay, so here is why I suspected A50 was the traitor. Now, first of all I just like to say that I was never VT like I claimed but actually BP VT neighbour. I claimed VT in hopes of drawing a night kill to me. A50 at that point agreed this was a good strat in the PT. But here is the comment he made that made me think he was the traitor:

In post 1503, Almost50 wrote:Here's what I suspect is going on: Regardless of cookie's alignment, T3 claims to have checked Dwlee (I assume whoever he responds to first is the target). He sleeps on it and checks Dwlee on N2 and comes back with a GUILTY on D3 (Dwlee can communicate but is not a neighbor). By the time we realize we have been fooled we're already in E-Lo it's GAME OVER with 3 mis-eliminatiosn and 2 Nks (assuming a 9 v 4 distribution). Meamwhile, Redtea is preoccupied and the Scum PRs are safe for the 2 nights it takes them to achieve this.

If this is true, three is more likely truly claiming VANILLA, because if he is a Traitor his death prevents the Scum win on D3 (although they can still achieve it on N3). Whether he's VT or a Goon though is up in the air (but I would slightly lean Goon since he wanted to draw the Vig to himself)

In hindsight I should not have claimed my BP. That would have been risky because of the Complex Vig thing, but it would have been beneficial to draw the NK and take Scum by surprise.

Based on the above, I don't think Scum would ALSO have a RB. We don't have that much strength in our roles as Town collectively. So..

IF T3 IS NOT ELIMINATED TODAY I BEG FOR readtea TO SHOOT HIM TONIGHT
Notice the breadcrumb he left about he should have claimed BP. That was a very unnecessary sentence to make, and to me seemed like he was signalling his teammates that I was actually a BP.

And now coupled with the fact that he outright lied that I said redtea should shoot three again, when I in fact said the complete opposite. There is no way to interpret these actions as anything else but the traitor. Therefore I vote him.

VOTE: Almost50
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Post Post #1582 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:30 am

Post by T3 »

Ta/Neighbor Finder works PERFECTLY as a town role in the setup.
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Post Post #1583 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:33 am

Post by Almost50 »

In post 1577, House wrote:You don't see the problem with TWO players claiming identical roles AS TOWN?
As a designer, I find it absolutely plausible.

The thing is I only claimed BP (not 1-shot BP), and zen immediately claimed ONE-SHOT in the hood. I thought he wouldn't have if he was Scum, and even if he was the Traitor (hypothetically I was considering it, but in practice I really thought h was Town) I thought keeping him alive and talking to me in the hood was best because he probably can give me some pointers as to who the scums are.

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Post Post #1584 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:34 am

Post by Almost50 »

In post 1578, T3 wrote:
In post 1564, House wrote:
In post 1553, Almost50 wrote:@STD: Your "I don't want to lim T3" was the final nail. I already started thinking of the situation when House volunteered to be shot instead of you, and again when he asserted redtea should shoot three again. It looked like a blatant attempt to deter the shot off you (and confirmed the team doesn't have a RB), but if you had voted T3 I probably would have thought it was too crazy to be true.
Wtf.

I don't want StD shot because he hasn't claimed, and if redtea says he's going to shoot there it could out even more power.

Where's your head?!

VOTE: A50
VOTE: house
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Post Post #1585 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:34 am

Post by TheZenMan »

In post 1577, House wrote:
In post 1576, Almost50 wrote:
In post 1567, Jacket wrote:
In post 1553, Almost50 wrote:T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)
This is actually close to what I was thinking. Except it makes more sense for cool cookie to be the traitor, since mailman returns a positive to a traffic analyst but a negative to a neighbor finder.
Well.. I could lowkey see your point, with both BP neighbors designed to be -ve utilities for both sides. Scum get failed NKs and Town gets falls +ve (Via COMPLEX VIG though, NOT the TA/Neighbor Finder)
You don't see the problem with TWO players claiming identical roles AS TOWN?

That... completely flies over your head?

No. Just fucking no.

If you were town, you'd be screaming CC at Zen all day long.
This is the part that actually made me trust A50 the most in the beginning. He had the same role as me, and disclosed his before I did. That's what made me trust him because I figured we have the exact same role. But I gues BP traitor neighbour would claim to be a BP neighbour. I also found it weird that A50 went straight to claiming BP instead of trying to bait a shot with claiming Vanlilla. Then later he regrets it...
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Post Post #1586 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:38 am

Post by House »

In post 1585, TheZenMan wrote:
In post 1577, House wrote:
In post 1576, Almost50 wrote:
In post 1567, Jacket wrote:
In post 1553, Almost50 wrote:T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)
This is actually close to what I was thinking. Except it makes more sense for cool cookie to be the traitor, since mailman returns a positive to a traffic analyst but a negative to a neighbor finder.
Well.. I could lowkey see your point, with both BP neighbors designed to be -ve utilities for both sides. Scum get failed NKs and Town gets falls +ve (Via COMPLEX VIG though, NOT the TA/Neighbor Finder)
You don't see the problem with TWO players claiming identical roles AS TOWN?

That... completely flies over your head?

No. Just fucking no.

If you were town, you'd be screaming CC at Zen all day long.
This is the part that actually made me trust A50 the most in the beginning. He had the same role as me, and disclosed his before I did. That's what made me trust him because I figured we have the exact same role. But I gues BP traitor neighbour would claim to be a BP neighbour. I also found it weird that A50 went straight to claiming BP instead of trying to bait a shot with claiming Vanlilla. Then later he regrets it...
Can you link to a (completed) game that has 2 of the same roles where both are town-aligned that gives you that belief?

Last I knew, that doesn't happen BECAUSE it leads to town cc'ing town.
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Post Post #1587 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:39 am

Post by TheZenMan »

In post 1583, Almost50 wrote:
In post 1577, House wrote:You don't see the problem with TWO players claiming identical roles AS TOWN?
As a designer, I find it absolutely plausible.

The thing is I only claimed BP (not 1-shot BP), and zen immediately claimed ONE-SHOT in the hood. I thought he wouldn't have if he was Scum, and even if he was the Traitor (hypothetically I was considering it, but in practice I really thought h was Town) I thought keeping him alive and talking to me in the hood was best because he probably can give me some pointers as to who the scums are.
True, you claimed only BP and then said in the alley that you were also 1-shot BP after I said it first. I can accept you misunderstanding me about T3 shot, but why leave that strange breadcrumb for me actually being BP?
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Post Post #1588 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:41 am

Post by TheZenMan »

In post 1586, House wrote:
In post 1585, TheZenMan wrote:
In post 1577, House wrote:
In post 1576, Almost50 wrote:
In post 1567, Jacket wrote:
In post 1553, Almost50 wrote:T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)
This is actually close to what I was thinking. Except it makes more sense for cool cookie to be the traitor, since mailman returns a positive to a traffic analyst but a negative to a neighbor finder.
Well.. I could lowkey see your point, with both BP neighbors designed to be -ve utilities for both sides. Scum get failed NKs and Town gets falls +ve (Via COMPLEX VIG though, NOT the TA/Neighbor Finder)
You don't see the problem with TWO players claiming identical roles AS TOWN?

That... completely flies over your head?

No. Just fucking no.

If you were town, you'd be screaming CC at Zen all day long.
This is the part that actually made me trust A50 the most in the beginning. He had the same role as me, and disclosed his before I did. That's what made me trust him because I figured we have the exact same role. But I gues BP traitor neighbour would claim to be a BP neighbour. I also found it weird that A50 went straight to claiming BP instead of trying to bait a shot with claiming Vanlilla. Then later he regrets it...
Can you link to a (completed) game that has 2 of the same roles where both are town-aligned that gives you that belief?

Last I knew, that doesn't happen BECAUSE it leads to town cc'ing town.
I actually thought it was more likely we were both town because we had the same role. Like some strange mind games the designers were playing. I am not that familiar with setups here to know how plausible it was.
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Post Post #1589 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:42 am

Post by House »

In post 1588, TheZenMan wrote:
In post 1586, House wrote:
In post 1585, TheZenMan wrote:
In post 1577, House wrote:
In post 1576, Almost50 wrote:
In post 1567, Jacket wrote:
In post 1553, Almost50 wrote:T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)
This is actually close to what I was thinking. Except it makes more sense for cool cookie to be the traitor, since mailman returns a positive to a traffic analyst but a negative to a neighbor finder.
Well.. I could lowkey see your point, with both BP neighbors designed to be -ve utilities for both sides. Scum get failed NKs and Town gets falls +ve (Via COMPLEX VIG though, NOT the TA/Neighbor Finder)
You don't see the problem with TWO players claiming identical roles AS TOWN?

That... completely flies over your head?

No. Just fucking no.

If you were town, you'd be screaming CC at Zen all day long.
This is the part that actually made me trust A50 the most in the beginning. He had the same role as me, and disclosed his before I did. That's what made me trust him because I figured we have the exact same role. But I gues BP traitor neighbour would claim to be a BP neighbour. I also found it weird that A50 went straight to claiming BP instead of trying to bait a shot with claiming Vanlilla. Then later he regrets it...
Can you link to a (completed) game that has 2 of the same roles where both are town-aligned that gives you that belief?

Last I knew, that doesn't happen BECAUSE it leads to town cc'ing town.
I actually thought it was more likely we were both town because we had the same role. Like some strange mind games the designers were playing. I am not that familiar with setups here to know how plausible it was.
Counterclaiming is a thing because scum claim roles that town actually has.

If it came from both alignments, there would be zero utility in counterclaiming.
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Post Post #1590 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:43 am

Post by Almost50 »

I would urge everybody to calm down and try to think things over from at least 2 different perspectives.

My proposed solve was originally mean to be a PM top the mod (I didn't think it was worth requesting a private personal thread, so was going to "vent it all out" for post-game bragging rights.

Then it hit me my solve -if correct- could actually end the game by tomorrow. We lim one scum today, shoot another by night and lim the third tomorrow. I rethought ot and it seemed plausible, so I decided I should post in the main thread instead.

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Post Post #1591 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:44 am

Post by Jacket »

In post 1586, House wrote:
In post 1585, TheZenMan wrote:
In post 1577, House wrote:
In post 1576, Almost50 wrote:
In post 1567, Jacket wrote:
In post 1553, Almost50 wrote:T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)
This is actually close to what I was thinking. Except it makes more sense for cool cookie to be the traitor, since mailman returns a positive to a traffic analyst but a negative to a neighbor finder.
Well.. I could lowkey see your point, with both BP neighbors designed to be -ve utilities for both sides. Scum get failed NKs and Town gets falls +ve (Via COMPLEX VIG though, NOT the TA/Neighbor Finder)
You don't see the problem with TWO players claiming identical roles AS TOWN?

That... completely flies over your head?

No. Just fucking no.

If you were town, you'd be screaming CC at Zen all day long.
This is the part that actually made me trust A50 the most in the beginning. He had the same role as me, and disclosed his before I did. That's what made me trust him because I figured we have the exact same role. But I gues BP traitor neighbour would claim to be a BP neighbour. I also found it weird that A50 went straight to claiming BP instead of trying to bait a shot with claiming Vanlilla. Then later he regrets it...
Can you link to a (completed) game that has 2 of the same roles where both are town-aligned that gives you that belief?

Last I knew, that doesn't happen BECAUSE it leads to town cc'ing town.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87504

This game had a 1-shot even night cop and a Night 2 Cop (effectively the same role). I think trying to outguess the mod is bad. (To be clear, I scumread T3 on play. Not just role spec stuff.)
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Post Post #1592 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:44 am

Post by TheZenMan »

Just wanna say that me voting for A50 is not a reactionary OMGUS to him saying I'm traitor. If not for that breadcrumb about me being BP he left and then outing me I would instead sit here trying to convince A50 he is wrong.
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Post Post #1593 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:46 am

Post by Jacket »

I don't think Almost50 ever is scum here.
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Post Post #1594 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:46 am

Post by House »

In post 1590, Almost50 wrote:I would urge everybody to calm down and try to think things over from at least 2 different perspectives.

My proposed solve was originally mean to be a PM top the mod (I didn't think it was worth requesting a private personal thread, so was going to "vent it all out" for post-game bragging rights.

Then it hit me my solve -if correct- could actually end the game by tomorrow. We lim one scum today, shoot another by night and lim the third tomorrow. I rethought ot and it seemed plausible, so I decided I should post in the main thread instead.
Funny how your "solve" flew out right after I got cold feet on the T3 wagon.

But I think you're "my" traitor?

It is for to laugh.
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Post Post #1595 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:47 am

Post by Jacket »

At any rate, if either is the traitor, I'm...not that concerned about it, actually.
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Post Post #1596 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:48 am

Post by Almost50 »

In post 1592, TheZenMan wrote:Just wanna say that me voting for A50 is not a reactionary OMGUS to him saying I'm traitor. If not for that breadcrumb about me being BP he left and then outing me I would instead sit here trying to convince A50 he is wrong.
Isn't calling you a Traitor already saying you're BP; given the "info" cookie gave us on D1?

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Post Post #1597 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:48 am

Post by T3 »

In post 1586, House wrote:
In post 1585, TheZenMan wrote:
In post 1577, House wrote:
In post 1576, Almost50 wrote:
In post 1567, Jacket wrote:
In post 1553, Almost50 wrote:T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)
This is actually close to what I was thinking. Except it makes more sense for cool cookie to be the traitor, since mailman returns a positive to a traffic analyst but a negative to a neighbor finder.
Well.. I could lowkey see your point, with both BP neighbors designed to be -ve utilities for both sides. Scum get failed NKs and Town gets falls +ve (Via COMPLEX VIG though, NOT the TA/Neighbor Finder)
You don't see the problem with TWO players claiming identical roles AS TOWN?

That... completely flies over your head?

No. Just fucking no.

If you were town, you'd be screaming CC at Zen all day long.
This is the part that actually made me trust A50 the most in the beginning. He had the same role as me, and disclosed his before I did. That's what made me trust him because I figured we have the exact same role. But I gues BP traitor neighbour would claim to be a BP neighbour. I also found it weird that A50 went straight to claiming BP instead of trying to bait a shot with claiming Vanlilla. Then later he regrets it...
Can you link to a (completed) game that has 2 of the same roles where both are town-aligned that gives you that belief?

Last I knew, that doesn't happen BECAUSE it leads to town cc'ing town.
I recently played a mini normal with 2 cops. But this is different.
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Post Post #1598 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:49 am

Post by House »

In post 1597, T3 wrote:
In post 1586, House wrote:
In post 1585, TheZenMan wrote:
In post 1577, House wrote:
In post 1576, Almost50 wrote:
In post 1567, Jacket wrote:
In post 1553, Almost50 wrote:T3's role was designed for Scum to identify their Traitor in at least 2 steps, and the Mailman is their "Miller" (gives them a false +ve)
This is actually close to what I was thinking. Except it makes more sense for cool cookie to be the traitor, since mailman returns a positive to a traffic analyst but a negative to a neighbor finder.
Well.. I could lowkey see your point, with both BP neighbors designed to be -ve utilities for both sides. Scum get failed NKs and Town gets falls +ve (Via COMPLEX VIG though, NOT the TA/Neighbor Finder)
You don't see the problem with TWO players claiming identical roles AS TOWN?

That... completely flies over your head?

No. Just fucking no.

If you were town, you'd be screaming CC at Zen all day long.
This is the part that actually made me trust A50 the most in the beginning. He had the same role as me, and disclosed his before I did. That's what made me trust him because I figured we have the exact same role. But I gues BP traitor neighbour would claim to be a BP neighbour. I also found it weird that A50 went straight to claiming BP instead of trying to bait a shot with claiming Vanlilla. Then later he regrets it...
Can you link to a (completed) game that has 2 of the same roles where both are town-aligned that gives you that belief?

Last I knew, that doesn't happen BECAUSE it leads to town cc'ing town.
I recently played a mini normal with 2 cops. But this is different.
How so?

Link?
The apology that resulted in my indefinite ban:

https://tinyimg.io/i/ZX5Yjhw.png
TheZenMan
TheZenMan
Goon
TheZenMan
Goon
Goon
Posts: 110
Joined: September 17, 2021

Post Post #1599 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:52 am

Post by TheZenMan »

In post 1596, Almost50 wrote:
In post 1592, TheZenMan wrote:Just wanna say that me voting for A50 is not a reactionary OMGUS to him saying I'm traitor. If not for that breadcrumb about me being BP he left and then outing me I would instead sit here trying to convince A50 he is wrong.
Isn't calling you a Traitor already saying you're BP; given the "info" cookie gave us on D1?
Ah true, I guess you are guilty of only leaving a breadcrumb for scum to find out I'm actually BP. That is the main reason I think you are a traitor anyway.
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