Newbie 2079 | Open House | Game Over!!!

[DaTacoX]

gg y'all <(o.o^)

[catboi]

If anyone from this game would like to play in a somewhat similar 9p game with a different setup, I have an open game currently in signups

[camelCasedSnivy]

Interesting game. Nice job RH9 (also I love how a PR hunt didnt even matter coming from the only PR)

[fferyllt]

GG to both teams! This game was fun to spectate.

The flavor was really good too!

[RH9]

I only realised in the end that my PR hunt was useless. And I actually believed MargotRosa was Town until Day 4, through PoE. And GG.

[RH9]

And is it common for Cop to only find Town.

[camelCasedSnivy]

Well yeah but most of the time they get at least one guilty. Still cant understand why you wasted an investigation on CheekyTeeky when Margot was already scummy.

[RH9]

I was convinced the Mafia must have bussed or miseliminated.

[RH9]

To be fair, that theory only ever applied to Connordragon07. MargotRosa never bussed nor miseliminated. And really, if Mafia hadn't NKed catboi, I would have investigated them, followed by Prism, and then followed by you for miseliminating, and finally MargotRosa. It turned out horribly because I never realised that Mafia could be so smart and not bus or miseliminate. And really, now, I know that I should be watching out for things other than bussing and miseliminating.

[catboi]

There's more town than mafia, so it's not like not getting a guilty investigation is all that uncommon. I think your targets could have been better, although that's easy to say with hindsight. Getting clears isn't all bad, even, but when there's only one mafia left you want to check someone who is a potential suspect, because even if they're not guilty you can ensure town won't waste an elimination on them.

I was convinced the Mafia must have bussed or miseliminated.

Well, why did you think that? A mafia teammate bussing connor in that situation would have been highly risky. In particular, cheeky hammering him without a claim was risking being put into autoloss.

[Prism]

So for the cop role specifically RH9, I want to say that:

1) You were right to wait until Day 3 to claim. Since your N1 report was dead, there was no point in outing Day 2.
2) It is normal to hit town-they're more frequent! Investigating your scumreads is typically the best idea, though clear-searching exceptions exist. If you're doing that you have nothing to apologize for-focusing on why your read was right or wrong is the best way to handle it.

[Prism]

You also put a lot of stock in the reports on myself in Cheeky. This is a correct logical process that leads to the right conclusion, but I don't want to make sure you don't miss another way to realize Margot was scum that last day: JK and cop simply can't coexist in this open setup, therefore she was scum by default in two different ways with the knowledge you had.

[MargotRosa]

Ok, full disclosure, I completely missed RH9's role claim on day 2. I also was responsible for scum eliminating taco n1. I played so bad right up until n3. When I saw what happened D3, I just decided to kick my butt into gear. It was fun. I enjoyed really feeling like I had a plan, even if it wasn't technically the best one. I do think it's more likely to win there rather than killing RH9 and trying to convince Cheeky that I, rather than Prism, was Town, but who knows

[MargotRosa]

GG anyway.

[MargotRosa]

I was genuinely annoyed about D3 being cut so short. But I do think, in the end, it could only be to scum's benefit

[MargotRosa]

@GeorgeBailey happy to make scum chat public. Reading through the utter malarkey, especially my scrambling together a plan last minute might be amusing

[Prism]

For Margot, I think I should discuss two different things.

First, you are clearly talented with your rhetoric and ability to frame arguments convincingly. Evidence of this could be seen in how various players reacted to reading through them without further digging. However, I think this bit you multiple times this game, where you simply said what you thought sounded good. One example was in the infamous criticism of my votes Day 1, while another was about protecting me from the NK Day 2. Your claims should hold up to basic investigation and process, and if they can't you need to reframe it to best explain the differences. You should be preempting basic fact checking or interpretative criticisms. You don't need to reinvent the wheel here or lay out a master plan-no scumplay is going to have a perfect explanation for everything, naturally-but you just need to be sure the bullets you're firing off aren't about to curve down into your foot at the slightest breeze of scrutiny.

Second, I think you underestimated your ability to win against me in 3 way. I think the points in 817 should have been persuasive, but that post was as much for you as it was for Cheeky. I was really hoping you would claim JK and give the hammer to me/Cheeky. The truth is that Cheeky and I do not think or hunt very similarly, and those differences clashed repeatedly throughout the game. It was very difficult for us to see the other as town at multiple points. It's easy for you to look at that list of points and say "Yeah they're all clearly valid as Prism is town," but some might have been less valid to Cheeky, and even the ones that were might not carry enough weight to swing it. Maybe the result would have been the same, but I personally thought you should have just kept a VT claim, and I think the mechanical backtracking we were able to do with both RH9 and yourself reinforces this.

[Prism]

While it didn't work, I think coming up with the soft claim and being able to hide in its ambiguity was a great example of what you should be doing more of. The ambiguity of that post gave you a lot of flexibility to hide behind, and simply going back was not enough to dismiss it. I had to really frame the post contextually and think about it to figure out why it was implausible.

The only reason I was able to see through it was that it was a hail mary mechanical revisionism where you were at a huge disadvantage, not that you did it poorly or that I did anything special. If it were about a read or a vote, I, and most others, probably would not have been able to.

[RH9]

You also put a lot of stock in the reports on myself in Cheeky. This is a correct logical process that leads to the right conclusion, but I don't want to make sure you don't miss another way to realize Margot was scum that last day: JK and cop simply can't coexist in this open setup, therefore she was scum by default in two different ways with the knowledge you had.

To be fair, I kind of noticed but I thought that she could argue back that I was Mafia because Cop is way easier to fake than Jailkeeper. I was actually surprised when she claimed Jailkeeper instead of Doctor, which would make sense as she could say that she saved CheekyTeeky. I thought that if she claimed Doctor, she could go on about finally protecting somebody. To be fair, I feel like she did a good job claiming a role which would not coexist with Cop. I feel like that if I was Mafia, I would have definitely claimed a easily fakeclaimable role like Doctor which can be easily justified and produce fake information for. Also, I did find it a good effort on her part in claiming that I was roleblocked when she could easily have said that she protected CheekyTeeky. And really, 'protecting' would imply that she is either Doctor or Jailkeeper. I feel like she did such a good job that I only realised the truth in Day 4, through PoE. And really is Jailkeeper basically Combined Doctor Roleblocker?

[Prism]

The difficulty with claiming doctor, and why it would have been even more advantageous to town, is that it does two things simultaneously:

1) Confirms you as real, as there is no setup with only a doctor
2) Gives you a report as there was no roleblocker, which as you saw directly led to her being mafia by default.

She had to either kill you or cc you, there was no way around it.

[Prism]

(She could have claimed doctor AND killed you, claiming roleblocked, but this would have again resulted in going against me. The whole point of her JK claim was to go against you, and there was mechanically no way to keep both of us in the mix with the way claims were sorted.)

[camelCasedSnivy]

You also put a lot of stock in the reports on myself in Cheeky. This is a correct logical process that leads to the right conclusion, but I don't want to make sure you don't miss another way to realize Margot was scum that last day: JK and cop simply can't coexist in this open setup, therefore she was scum by default in two different ways with the knowledge you had.

To be fair, I kind of noticed but I thought that she could argue back that I was Mafia because Cop is way easier to fake than Jailkeeper. I was actually surprised when she claimed Jailkeeper instead of Doctor, which would make sense as she could say that she saved CheekyTeeky. I thought that if she claimed Doctor, she could go on about finally protecting somebody. To be fair, I feel like she did a good job claiming a role which would not coexist with Cop. I feel like that if I was Mafia, I would have definitely claimed a easily fakeclaimable role like Doctor which can be easily justified and produce fake information for. Also, I did find it a good effort on her part in claiming that I was roleblocked when she could easily have said that she protected CheekyTeeky. And really, 'protecting' would imply that she is either Doctor or Jailkeeper. I feel like she did such a good job that I only realised the truth in Day 4, through PoE. And really is Jailkeeper basically Combined Doctor Roleblocker?

First off, yes it is a Combined Doctor Roleblocker but Jailkeeper sounds much better so thats just used.
Also how is Cop easier to fake? If you get roleblocked, you wouldn't know but a real Cop would.

[RH9]

So for the cop role specifically RH9, I want to say that:

1) You were right to wait until Day 3 to claim. Since your N1 report was dead, there was no point in outing Day 2.
2) It is normal to hit town-they're more frequent! Investigating your scumreads is typically the best idea, though clear-searching exceptions exist. If you're doing that you have nothing to apologize for-focusing on why your read was right or wrong is the best way to handle it.

To be fair, the main reason I ended up claiming was because I realised that with one Mafia left, I could help Town find Mafia via PoE. And I basically had no scumreads for the whole game. It was basically mostly townreads with some being nullreads. That was why I started investigating my townreads. My only nullreads were flow trap, Connordragon07, DaTacoX, by the way. The only thing was flow trap was replaced by catboi, DaTacoX was NKed, and Connordragon07 was eliminated. And then catboi, who I ended up townreading, got NKed. And when DaTacoX was NKed, I was worried because it would be awkward to tell everybody that a NKed player was Town, when everybody could know this from reading the mod scene.

[RH9]

There's more town than mafia, so it's not like not getting a guilty investigation is all that uncommon. I think your targets could have been better, although that's easy to say with hindsight. Getting clears isn't all bad, even, but when there's only one mafia left you want to check someone who is a potential suspect, because even if they're not guilty you can ensure town won't waste an elimination on them.

I was convinced the Mafia must have bussed or miseliminated.

Well, why did you think that? A mafia teammate bussing connor in that situation would have been highly risky. In particular, cheeky hammering him without a claim was risking being put into autoloss.

Mafia could have bussed earlier like start the wagon, which Connordragon07 did. That was why when you were NKed and CheekyTeeky was confirmed Town, I was confused. Then, I investigated Prism and confirmed them as Town. It was only then that I realised that the last Mafia didn't bus nor miseliminate. And really, that was why I took forever to catch Mafia. MargotRosa definitely had me convinced because I never would have imagined that Mafia would deliberately not leave obvious scumtells.

[MargotRosa]

For Margot, I think I should discuss two different things.

First, you are clearly talented with your rhetoric and ability to frame arguments convincingly. Evidence of this could be seen in how various players reacted to reading through them without further digging. However, I think this bit you multiple times this game, where you simply said what you thought sounded good. One example was in the infamous criticism of my votes Day 1, while another was about protecting me from the NK Day 2. Your claims should hold up to basic investigation and process, and if they can't you need to reframe it to best explain the differences. You should be preempting basic fact checking or interpretative criticisms. You don't need to reinvent the wheel here or lay out a master plan-no scumplay is going to have a perfect explanation for everything, naturally-but you just need to be sure the bullets you're firing off aren't about to curve down into your foot at the slightest breeze of scrutiny.

Second, I think you underestimated your ability to win against me in 3 way. I think the points in 817 should have been persuasive, but that post was as much for you as it was for Cheeky. I was really hoping you would claim JK and give the hammer to me/Cheeky. The truth is that Cheeky and I do not think or hunt very similarly, and those differences clashed repeatedly throughout the game. It was very difficult for us to see the other as town at multiple points. It's easy for you to look at that list of points and say "Yeah they're all clearly valid as Prism is town," but some might have been less valid to Cheeky, and even the ones that were might not carry enough weight to swing it. Maybe the result would have been the same, but I personally thought you should have just kept a VT claim, and I think the mechanical backtracking we were able to do with both RH9 and yourself reinforces this.

This is a fantastic point actually.

I feel like my ability to be very convincing has been getting in my way in my previous games, especially as Town, because it isn't matched by my ability to sort slots lol

This is good to keep in mind. I need to spend some time developing my ability to read the game, as either side. Without that, the ability to be convincing isn't worth much