newbie 2080: correct statements (this is over)

schadd_ · Post Post #625 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:59 pm

guitar distortion was invented when jonathan p. guitar played the guitar so close to his own ear that he blew up

vote count 2.2

Facebones (2):

MargotRosa, DArby

Val89 (1):

Thynhith

not voting (4):

Spangled, Facebones, Val89, Roden

with 7 alive, it takes 4 to eliminate. day 2 starts now and ends in (expired on 2021-10-17 20:00:00)

Roden · Post Post #626 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:39 pm

In post 151, Facebones wrote:
In post 125, Cook wrote:facebones what are your thoughts on spangled
Jury's still out on that one. I'm a little suspicious of 123 and 142, could it be an attempt at buddying?
I don't feel like my three posts should put me at the top of anyones townpile.

On the other hand I feel he was sincere about his initial apprehension and questioning of your plan, trying to get a firmer grasp on it to see if it would indeed be beneficial for town. When reading through, I noticed the questions he was asking were similar to questions I myself was thinking

Self-awareness usually comes from scum, but this thought process of "why are you town reading me" and explaining why town reading him off of so little doesn't sit right with him feels like a really townie mindset. Scum are more likely to just take the town read without a fight here.

In post 256, Facebones wrote:
In post 241, Val89 wrote:After articulating my issues, I'm now a little bit more confident in seeing a red flip with respect to Spangled than I am Cook, although it is close, and I do think
it's possible that's just the scumpair
, gg.

Roden wrote:Though Val, what makes you so confident you've already caught the scum pair?
What makes you think Val is "so confident" he's got the scum pair? I'm confused

This read as a town perspective slip to me. This is another questioning post where he doesn't understand another player's perspective but isn't shading when doing so. Scum doesn't care about these kinds of details.

In post 260, Facebones wrote:The change I was thinking of was https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12928671
In post 18, Cook wrote:VOTE: No elimination.
vs the one in this game

In post 134, Cook wrote:never no eliminate d1.

In post 261, Facebones wrote:https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12936258

In post 140, Cook wrote:If we no-eliminate, that will likely put us at 2 scum 6 town and we can get a confirm townie tomorrow.
This one as well as scum trying to convince people no elim D1 is a good strategy

She's changed her tune a little bit
Granted she might've just pushed the no elim back to D2 instead of D1

Here he does his homework and points out the inconsistencies that Val was asking for others to point out. Again, this is something he really didn't have to do as scum.

In addition to this, while his post quantity is low overall, nothing jumps out to me as super scummy, and his Day 2 posts have been strong. He's generally coming off as solvey to me, just not in as many words as Val Margot or Spangled .

MargotRosa · Post Post #627 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:47 pm

In post 516, Thynhith wrote:This.. was not expected. Why would scum take Galron out? If they'd left him alone, he'd be drawing all the heat on D2

Thyn, can you explain why you think Galron would be taking all the heat today if they were still alive? Also;

In post 518, Thynhith wrote:
In post 515, DArby wrote:On one hand we still have both scum but on the other we have both power roles.

VOTE: Val

Why are you still alive?
VOTE: Val would like to know as well. In any case, this makes me townlean Spangled. Val's primary scumreads were Cook and Spangled. If Val is scum, Spangled is unlikely to be as well. If Val was town and pushing scum!spangled then scum would take out Val instead, so perhaps Val you were pushing a town!spangled D1?
Why do you think scum didn't NK you?

I am also putting a pin in this for later, because there is something very odd about going from a scum read of Spangled to a Town read of Spangled based entirely on who was eliminated, especially given that you seem to agree with DArby that the NK was weird and intentional

MargotRosa · Post Post #628 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:05 pm

In post 626, Roden wrote:
In post 151, Facebones wrote:
In post 125, Cook wrote:facebones what are your thoughts on spangled
Jury's still out on that one. I'm a little suspicious of 123 and 142, could it be an attempt at buddying?
I don't feel like my three posts should put me at the top of anyones townpile.

On the other hand I feel he was sincere about his initial apprehension and questioning of your plan, trying to get a firmer grasp on it to see if it would indeed be beneficial for town. When reading through, I noticed the questions he was asking were similar to questions I myself was thinking
Self-awareness usually comes from scum, but this thought process of "why are you town reading me" and explaining why town reading him off of so little doesn't sit right with him feels like a really townie mindset. Scum are more likely to just take the town read without a fight here.

In post 256, Facebones wrote:
In post 241, Val89 wrote:After articulating my issues, I'm now a little bit more confident in seeing a red flip with respect to Spangled than I am Cook, although it is close, and I do think
it's possible that's just the scumpair
, gg.

Roden wrote:Though Val, what makes you so confident you've already caught the scum pair?
What makes you think Val is "so confident" he's got the scum pair? I'm confused
This read as a town perspective slip to me. This is another questioning post where he doesn't understand another player's perspective but isn't shading when doing so. Scum doesn't care about these kinds of details.

In post 260, Facebones wrote:The change I was thinking of was https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12928671
In post 18, Cook wrote:VOTE: No elimination.
vs the one in this game

In post 134, Cook wrote:never no eliminate d1.

In post 261, Facebones wrote:https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12936258

In post 140, Cook wrote:If we no-eliminate, that will likely put us at 2 scum 6 town and we can get a confirm townie tomorrow.
This one as well as scum trying to convince people no elim D1 is a good strategy

She's changed her tune a little bit
Granted she might've just pushed the no elim back to D2 instead of D1
Here he does his homework and points out the inconsistencies that Val was asking for others to point out. Again, this is something he really didn't have to do as scum.

In addition to this, while his post quantity is low overall, nothing jumps out to me as super scummy, and his Day 2 posts have been strong. He's generally coming off as solvey to me, just not in as many words as Val Margot or Spangled .

With respect to the first point, maybe it's that my play is so often very psychologically motivated, but that would usually be my kneejerk response as Scum well before I'd have that response as Town. And that's precisely because of the fact that Scum motivation is an extra step removed from the play than Town is. It's classic WIFOM.

Ie. Town: 1. My main goal is to find scum, rather than to be read as Town. 2. I should question everyone, irrespective of whether they Town Read me.
Scum: 1. My main goal is to be Town. 2. Town's main goal is to find scum, rather than to be read as Town. 3. I will look Town if I question everyone, irrespective of whether they Town Read me.

I can get behind your second point a bit more. Still makes sense to me as a Scum post though, as an attempt to understand where Town's heads are at.

Third point I actually can get behind though. That seems so outside of even the weirdest scum range, especially from a player who is very inconsistent and seems a bit checked out otherwise

UNVOTE: Facebones for now

MargotRosa · Post Post #629 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:06 pm

@Roden, can you please look at 627 and give me your thoughts?

Thynhith · Post Post #630 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:14 pm

In post 627, MargotRosa wrote:
In post 516, Thynhith wrote:This.. was not expected. Why would scum take Galron out? If they'd left him alone, he'd be drawing all the heat on D2
Thyn, can you explain why you think Galron would be taking all the heat today if they were still alive? Also;

In post 518, Thynhith wrote:
In post 515, DArby wrote:On one hand we still have both scum but on the other we have both power roles.

VOTE: Val

Why are you still alive?
VOTE: Val would like to know as well. In any case, this makes me townlean Spangled. Val's primary scumreads were Cook and Spangled. If Val is scum, Spangled is unlikely to be as well. If Val was town and pushing scum!spangled then scum would take out Val instead, so perhaps Val you were pushing a town!spangled D1?
Why do you think scum didn't NK you?
I am also putting a pin in this for later, because there is something very odd about going from a scum read of Spangled to a Town read of Spangled based entirely on who was eliminated, especially given that you seem to agree with DArby that the NK was weird and intentional

Imo Galron would have been a strong candiate for policy elim D2 and would have taken heat for being on the Cook wagon/anti-town behavior D1. All the heat might have been hyperbole, but a good part of it.

I think you've misunderstood my second post. I don't think I've ever scumread spangled, I was suggesting that scum was town due to Val being left alive. Generally spangled was null, early D1, and townleaning after that.

DArby · Post Post #631 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:40 pm

I'm sorry but I completely disagree with your read and I don't see your post as town-aligned at all.

This is my response color.

In post 626, Roden wrote:
In post 151, Facebones wrote:
In post 125, Cook wrote:facebones what are your thoughts on spangled
Jury's still out on that one. I'm a little suspicious of 123 and 142, could it be an attempt at buddying?
I don't feel like my three posts should put me at the top of anyones townpile.

On the other hand I feel he was sincere about his initial apprehension and questioning of your plan, trying to get a firmer grasp on it to see if it would indeed be beneficial for town. When reading through, I noticed the questions he was asking were similar to questions I myself was thinking
Self-awareness usually comes from scum, but this thought process of "why are you town reading me" and explaining why town reading him off of so little doesn't sit right with him feels like a really townie mindset. Scum are more likely to just take the town read without a fight here.

What? Need I remind you that at this point Spangled was tied for most votes with Galron according to the vote count in 130. Of course he'd want to not associate with the person in the hot seat at that moment in time. And as much as it's been beaten over the head by now it's silly to accept that as a strong reads list at that time. Also I'm not sure it's related but you said "Self-awareness usually comes from scum" yet on page 7 where you got this quote Spangled did the exact same thing in 154. Do you think that's scum suspicious? If so why push for me or Thyn and not Spangled now? You were leaning on scum!Spangled 554 with FB. If you don't see it that way, why? I also find this read weird because in 604 you mention your reads didn't change but now you have a town case for someone you scum read?

In post 256, Facebones wrote:
In post 241, Val89 wrote:After articulating my issues, I'm now a little bit more confident in seeing a red flip with respect to Spangled than I am Cook, although it is close, and I do think
it's possible that's just the scumpair
, gg.

Roden wrote:Though Val, what makes you so confident you've already caught the scum pair?
What makes you think Val is "so confident" he's got the scum pair? I'm confused
This read as a town perspective slip to me. This is another questioning post where he doesn't understand another player's perspective but isn't shading when doing so. Scum doesn't care about these kinds of details.

I don't want to get too deep into this one because my argument would be WIFOM but I don't see this as a town slip or not shading. You've seen Val post. He's a confident mf. Just because he said "I suppose" doesn't take away the power of his words leading up to saying that.
Especially when he used the word confident in the post that's quoted.
This is not a good question FB posted. I read Val's post(s) in the same way you apparently read it. Val absolutely sounded confident. Adding "I'm confused" feels like a shade too. Like, this is such a weird read for you to have.

In post 260, Facebones wrote:The change I was thinking of was https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12928671
In post 18, Cook wrote:VOTE: No elimination.
vs the one in this game

In post 134, Cook wrote:never no eliminate d1.

In post 261, Facebones wrote:https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12936258

In post 140, Cook wrote:If we no-eliminate, that will likely put us at 2 scum 6 town and we can get a confirm townie tomorrow.
This one as well as scum trying to convince people no elim D1 is a good strategy

She's changed her tune a little bit
Granted she might've just pushed the no elim back to D2 instead of D1
Here he does his homework and points out the inconsistencies that Val was asking for others to point out. Again, this is something he really didn't have to do as scum.

I don't like that a lot of your read is boiling down to he's not being lazy when he posts, which is still up for debate. It's rather reductionist that you're boiling scum action to being incredibly basic and finding the least path of resistance.

In addition to this, while his post quantity is low overall, nothing jumps out to me as super scummy, and his Day 2 posts have been strong. He's generally coming off as solvey to me, just not in as many words as Val Margot or Spangled .

The last sentence is so weird, too? His day 2 posts absolutely give us nothing to work with. You said he's doing his homework but he doesn't even have a reads list? Val's 603 points that out. I suppose 587 and 599 is some solid work but FB is so far from being solvey I don't know how to expand on this further.

I mean this with absolutely no disrespect but I do disagree with your points.

MargotRosa · Post Post #632 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:45 pm

@DArby I don't know what to make of the fact that our reads on Roden's post about FB are almost identical except for the last one, and yet it doesn't even make you reconsider.

Did you look at Facebones' 261 properly?

DArby · Post Post #633 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:49 pm

In post 632, MargotRosa wrote:@DArby I don't know what to make of the fact that our reads on Roden's post about FB are almost identical except for the last one, and yet it doesn't even make you reconsider.

Did you look at Facebones' 261 properly?

Well...yes it doesn't make me reconsider. I disagreed with all of his points.

As for 261 I don't read that as AI. So much of d1 was wasted over talking meta game brought up by a person who wanted to push it regardless of alignment. I am not going to insult myself further with bringing up that topic again.

Thynhith · Post Post #634 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:54 pm

In post 622, Val89 wrote:Understood.

For what it is worth, I think Facebones is looking fairly scummy following his response to questioning today.

In normal circumstances, I would be voting there after that, but I still can't shake the feeling that Spangled was TMIing FB as town D1. Thyn tells me he considers Spangles' read to be legitimate, and it's a playstyle thing, but I found that a little unsatisfying given I noticed he took issue at Galron giving a town read on Roden when Rodens' ISO at the time was more comprehensive than FBs.

We are waiting to hear from Roden; I'll see if Spangle's answers can help me resolve the problem I am having, and I think we need to hear a little more from Thyn as to where he stands on issue of Facebones, because I am still struggling to move past a null read there - I've read through the ISO again tonight and still nothing is jumping out in either direction.

My issue with Galron was the lack of substance in his townread, not the read itself. Spangled at least tried to justify his own read, which makes it more legitimate in my book.

As for FB, let me put it this way: take how scummy I am, and FB is scummier than that. This post in particular:

Spoiler:

@Facebones

Here you're trying to justify yourself lurking D1. Do you really expect us to believe that was due to your "preference"? I've metaread you. In your games you make over 25 posts D1. And have you gleaned a single thing from lurking all of D1? Nada, you're still rereading. You're not even keeping up to the game. Oh and by the way, quoting snippets in Post 587 and 599 and responding doesn't make you any townier. You have no reads, you have no opinions. If "it's easier to class people as either town or scum from their interactions with other players," you've classed not a single player.

"I'm here to answer all questions in order to clear up confusion you may have about my alignment"
is such a desperate sentence. Townies know they are town. They don't clear up confusion weakly, they proclaim their towniness openly. This is just optics. You don't even sound convinced you are town, because you're not.
I admire your boldness in attempting to convince us your scumlurking was a legit strat, but I'm going to have to VOTE: Facebones

FB is at E-2, curious what he says before we elim him.

DArby · Post Post #635 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:56 pm

That came out more snappy than I meant it to. Sorry. @Margot

And thank you. You are doing the lords work @Thyn

DArby · Post Post #636 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:08 pm

Honestly I thought I was saying something but Thyn said it a lot better. I'm confident with FB lem d2 but I'm willing to wait a bit for more content.

If FB flips red, Roden is d3 fodder.

Thynhith · Post Post #637 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:24 pm

@Darby you don't seem to have found Roden suspicious throughout D1, what's happened D2 to change your read - just post 631 or something more? How sure are you?

In post 469, DArby wrote:My read on Roden will also shift depending on Cook's flip

Can you also explain what you meant here, and how your read has shifted after Cook flipped green?

MargotRosa · Post Post #638 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:00 pm

In post 635, DArby wrote:That came out more snappy than I meant it to. Sorry. @Margot

And thank you. You are doing the lords work @Thyn

That is fine. My point wasn't to relitigate the meta shit. My point is that it's a lot of research to conduct to come to the conclusion that Cook is probably Town (which she was).

This isn't about Cook. This is about the fact that this is a lot of work for Scum to perform to TR Town

DArby · Post Post #639 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:16 pm

In post 637, Thynhith wrote:@Darby you don't seem to have found Roden suspicious throughout D1, what's happened D2 to change your read - just post 631 or something more? How sure are you?
In post 469, DArby wrote:My read on Roden will also shift depending on Cook's flip
Can you also explain what you meant here, and how your read has shifted after Cook flipped green?

My post is a 100% kneejerk reaction to 631. It was such a weird read post that I cannot give Roden a tr if FB flips red. And I should clarify that me not finding him suspicious doesn't mean I town read him. It was a null read out of caution. In regards to 469. I know I had a reason but for the life of me I'm blanking on it and I'm about to do my night routine now. Come back to me on that tomorrow and I should be able to look back on it.

In post 638, MargotRosa wrote:
In post 635, DArby wrote:That came out more snappy than I meant it to. Sorry. @Margot

And thank you. You are doing the lords work @Thyn
That is fine. My point wasn't to relitigate the meta shit. My point is that it's a lot of research to conduct to come to the conclusion that Cook is probably Town (which she was).

This isn't about Cook. This is about the fact that this is a lot of work for Scum to perform to TR Town

I get that. That does seem like a lot of work, which it is. But I'd like to counter that with it is a lot of work reading a game in that he is not playing while actively ignoring this one. That negates any town cred because the work is not about this game. To me it just feels like extra busy work so he can say he did something without taking a risk of looking at this game.

MargotRosa · Post Post #640 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:23 am

In post 639, DArby wrote:I get that. That does seem like a lot of work, which it is. But I'd like to counter that with it is a lot of work reading a game in that he is not playing while actively ignoring this one. That negates any town cred because the work is not about this game. To me it just feels like extra busy work so he can say he did something without taking a risk of looking at this game.

That's a really weird thing to say about this kind of a deep dive.

Maybe it's a waste of time, but that seems way more misguided than it does scummy.

I very seriously doubt any newbie scum spends the necessary time and brain space doing this instead of coming up with a halfway decent scum read of another player.

Facebones · Post Post #641 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:45 am

TOWN: Spangled (still a bit sus of the super early town read of me and going along with Cook's strat, but does seem to be trying to spark conversation (which is NAI, I know, but to me it doesn't feel forced). I do have similar concerns with DArby as he outlined in 213. Also he stands by his thoughts and doesn't seem to be wishy washy and easily swayed even if those thoughts aren't broadly accepted and go against the grain)

Val: (one of the same reason as Spangled (albeit in a more accusatory manner)- he's asking people questions and genuinely seems to be trying to solve this. His interrogation of me comes across as a genuine townie)

NULL: Thynhith, Roden

SCUM: Margot (for putting forth a decent case on Cook and essentially at the point of no return backtracking and started TR-ing her for reasons still unbeknownst to me)

DArby (due to his constant pushing to try and secure the Cook elim, I've still got my beliefs he's trying to line up townies)

Val89 · Post Post #642 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:46 am

In post 640, MargotRosa wrote:That's a really weird thing to say about this kind of a deep dive.

Maybe it's a waste of time, but that seems way more misguided than it does scummy.

I think you are both missing the main point here, which is that Facebones didn't do this independently, which, if he had, I think this point would be valid. The fact of the matter is - I specifically invited him (and everyone else) to do precisely this work, and provided the links to the posts in 216.

Facebones said, in his very first scum game, the following. It doesn't appear that I can quote it directly because the thread is locked, but here is the link to it.

Spoiler: Facebones opinions as given in his first game

Of course, I think that speaks quite strongly to his "I prefer to sit back and look for the interactions of others" thing being an excuse, given that he has previously indicated he thinks lurking and staying out of thread when being questioned is a scummy thing to do, and something he would look for as a scumtell in others. The question becomes 'why would he do something as scum he knows others are going to find scummy, then?' and I think his answer to 5 tells us that.

He recognises he isn't the best at lying. Coming up with reads and whatnot that aren't legit might well be something he will try and avoid doing, and doing the homework I set probably looked like an easy way to pick up some towncred - particularly with me - without having to do what he says he is no good at doing. It's no lie, he knows Cook is actually town, so he is expecting to find something.

In that context, I'm not about to be giving him much credit for doing so, and I think anyone who is tempted to do just that needs to remember this was a directed meta search, not an independently driven one.

Facebones · Post Post #643 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:00 am

VOTE: DArby

Val, that was my first game of mafia ever on this or any site- my gamestyle has changed overtime and I don't think things said way back then has any relevance to present day

Facebones · Post Post #644 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:04 am

Any reason you decided to avoid putting in Q1 - "1. What is your overall mafia experience? Not just on this site." and my answer - "I have little/no mafia experience. I witnessed my housemate play a game on a different site once, but that's the extent as to how far my knowledge goes."?

Val89 · Post Post #645 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:11 am

In post 644, Facebones wrote:Any reason you decided to avoid putting in Q1 - "1. What is your overall mafia experience? Not just on this site." and my answer - "I have little/no mafia experience. I witnessed my housemate play a game on a different site once, but that's the extent as to how far my knowledge goes."?

Yeah - that fact that I said it was your first game twice in my post already; and directly linked the entire post and then quoted the relevant parts from it.

I note that I said "very first scum game", and that was a mistake, you were town, so appologies for that.

MargotRosa · Post Post #646 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:14 am

So you are basing this on the opinions a first time player has about how someone might read their own meta, purely hypothetically, and before ever having actually played as scum to have the experience of knowing what that meta even is???

MargotRosa · Post Post #647 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:17 am

I don't think this is necessarily AI, for what it's worth, given that I have given far shittier reads as Town in my previous games, but you both (Val and DArby) need to lie down for a hot minute, breathe, and come back with some actual reads based on actual stuff.

Imagine criticising someone for going into an unrelated thread and giving a read you have decided is useless, and then immediately reading an even less relevant post in a completely irrelevant thread, and given a read that is objectively more useless.

MargotRosa · Post Post #648 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:21 am

Cards on table, I am not, but would love to be scum right now, because you are both playing so hard into my scum meta right now, whereby I just point out the mistakes of other players, break their wills, and then play off their lack of confidence and making them do whatever I want.

This would have been so easy, because this is so blatantly bad. You mislim Cook with bad gut reads, and then pull out even worse gut reads to try and Lim someone I said I wanted to hear something from. You've gone from both being town in my books to being on the cusp of flipping alignments on my read list in all of about 4 posts between the two of you.

Val89 · Post Post #649 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:24 am

In post 646, MargotRosa wrote:So you are basing this on the opinions a first time player has about how someone might read their own meta, purely hypothetically, and before ever having actually played as scum to have the experience of knowing what that meta even is???

Did you read the quote? He was asked what he would look for while scumhunting, not anything to with how any one would read is own hypothetical meta, or whatever bullshit that is you are trying to sell.

MargotRosa wrote:Imagine criticising someone for going into an unrelated thread and giving a read you have decided is useless

Wrong. I am criticising

you

for having given Facebones a whole bunch of towncred for doing so, saying that you don't think scum would go to the time and effort, without acknoledgeing that he was directed to do so by another slot and handed the links to the posts.

I thought initially that might have just slipped you by, but based on this reaction, I wonder if it fact it was deliberate.