newbie 2080: correct statements (this is over)

[MargotRosa]

I'm not giving Facebones heaps of town credit. I intentionally unvoted, not just because I don't want another fast Elim like yesterday, but because it achieves something very specific, that I hoped (but doubt) another slot might have realised when I did it. Alas. Whatevs.

I don't like this play at all. I'm glad you're not putting FB to e-1 4 days out at least. That at a minimum makes me feel ok having Town read you so hard

[MargotRosa]

As be he was directed to read the post. Many didn't, some explicitly (Galton comes straight to mind). But this revelation came about well after FB would have checked that thread, because the differences stuck in his mind. Aka, he actually took note of them rather than merely collected things for use as scum

[Val89]

But this revelation came about well after FB would have checked that thread, because the differences stuck in his mind. Aka, he actually took note of them rather than merely collected things for use as scum

What evidence do you have that could let you come to that conclusion?

[MargotRosa]

The differences FB mentions having thought of in 260 were first referenced an hour earlier in 253

[MargotRosa]

I also think that given these differences were elaborated on because you asked for the elaboration in 259, because it might "change everything", and yet it didn't, because you kept scum reading at least one Town, and didn't twig on FB after that point, I honestly doubt the veracity of what you're saying right now

[Val89]

The differences FB mentions having thought of in 260 were first referenced an hour earlier in 253

And both 260 and 253 are AFTER 216.

I don't think there is any way you can speak to when Facebones checked the thread, or his state of mind when doing so. The fact that the second I ask you to justify doing so, you say something completely non-sensical and then immediately try and shade my motives for doing so is noted.

[MargotRosa]

That you are pushing a slot for doing what you told them to, checking a thread, and by all appearances telling you precisely what it was they found when they look when prompted is nonsensical?

I am stunned by the lack of self-awareness

[Val89]

I am not pushing the slot for doing what I told them to do. I brought this up because it seems like he was getting towncred from you and Roden for doing so

as if he had done so independently, off his own back

.

I figured, if you were simply looking at Facebones ISO, which is plausible, since it was Facebones that was under consideration, you might have simply missed the fact he was directed to do so, and handed the links, to make sure you had figured that into your thinking.

We haven't heard from Roden whether or not he did notice that and take it into account, but your response, to tell us you know exactly when Facebones checked the thread, and what his motivation was when he did it, has pinged me in a big way.

Combine that with the fact you were voting Facebones while somehow knowing what he was thinking there, but you neglected to bring it up until Roden did, then try and tell us that the unvote was some sort of unspecified signal to

[Val89]

(this is what I get for trying to compose a reply on my phone)

... Continued:

... Unspecified signal to an unspecified slot isn't sitting right with me at all.

It fact, it feels pretty similar to what happened with the Cook wagon yesterday. Cook was town, correct, but your reasons for having a sudden change of heart there make as much sense to me as your arguments here (ie: none at all), and, I'll be happy to be corrected if I am wrong about this, but I doubt they, or these, make or made any sense to anyone else, either.

I am wondering if we are looking in the wrong place with Facebones. You've been making a big thing about not wanting a Spangled wagon without much justification. The reason I was holding off voting Facebones was because I wanted to hear from Spangled given the possible associative there. I still do want to hear from Spangled before voting, but I think I'm also going to have a good long look at the possibility we are being played in the same as with Cook before committing to a Facebones lim today, as scummy as that slot is right now.

[MargotRosa]

Yesterday, my change of heart was because I genuinely thought that Cook was definitely Town.

Today, I feel as though the information Roden dug up is genuinely worth considering, and don't want to let you run off with another Town elimination today the way you did yesterday.

Either you have a tunnel problem, in which you're first gut read is the only one that sticks in your mind, or you're scum intentionally trying to sound persuasive while you lim Town without listening to anyone who disagrees with your reads? Which is it?

[MargotRosa]

ANd I didn't "know" anything before Roden brought it up, after which point I read back through the posts

[Val89]

Either you have a tunnel problem, in which you're first gut read is the only one that sticks in your mind, or you're scum intentionally trying to sound persuasive while you lim Town without listening to anyone who disagrees with your reads? Which is it?

I am trying to decide what advantage we gain from either you proposing, or me engaging with, such an obvious false dichotomy, and I am afraid I can't see one.

ANd I didn't "know" anything before Roden brought it up, after which point I read back through the posts

Fine. I'm asking you to justify this, because it looks to all the world like you are suggesting you can somehow read Facebones mind, and know for a fact what his intentions were when he did so.

But this revelation came about well after FB would have checked that thread, because the differences stuck in his mind. Aka, he actually took note of them rather than merely collected things for use as scum

I asked you what evidence you had for that, you said:

The differences FB mentions having thought of in 260 were first referenced an hour earlier in 253

...which is clearly no answer, since I prompted the dive, and gave the links, in 216; which was earlier than even 253.

Have you some actual evidence that allows you to conclude that Facebones did the dive before I proposed doing so and provided instructions and links for doing so in 216, and that his motivation for doing so was not scum motivated; or, in the alternative, can you explain what town justifciation you had for pulling 651 out of your butt, as appears to be the case at present?

[Val89]

See, the thing is I expected a couple of reactions to me pointing out that Facebones was being awarded towncred on the basis that "My point is that it's a lot of research to conduct to come to the conclusion that Cook is probably Town" without acknowledging that most of the work had already been done, and the challenge set, in 216.

One of those responses might have been "Yeah, I was already aware of that, I just didn't mention it, or consider it relevant because.... X"' or "No, I was look specifically at Facebones ISO and didn't account for that. Now you have pointed it out, I still consider the fact he did so as worth town points because....", or "No, I didn't notice that, Val, perhaps I'll reconsider that point."

Any of those would had have reassured me we were engaging in a good faith discussion and working towards properly solving the question of Facebones' alignment.

What I wasn't expecting was your reaction, whatever that was. You can't see why I am shaking my head and wondering what the hell is motiviating all this?

[Thynhith]

I'm here. Sorry I've been quiet, work kicked my ass the last couple days, I haven't had much sleep, and I just went on vacation.

Game state feels weird from what I've skimmed, a lot of people seem too scared to seriously push anything. Nothing's happened to affect my reads from the last time I gave them either.

Does anyone have a town case for Darby or Thyn? Because we should be voting there, I don't like the Facebones votes. I can town case him later tonight if no one sees the town posts that have pinged me, from there we can probably just PoE solve.

If there any posts I missed that somebody wanted me to respond to, could you quote it please? I'm drifting off and on into sleep.

@Roden towncase Facebones please. Would appreciate a fresh look on things, while Val and Margot are locked in their arguement. Especially consider post 587 and 599. Unless your read has changed, ofc.
@Val I'm not a fan of using very old games for metareads, especially scumthreads. If you could confirm scum!Facebones lurking D1 more recently, that would far more convincing.

Also no one's cased Darby or I so far, despite multiple people asking for it.

[Thynhith]

TOWN: Spangled (still a bit sus of the super early town read of me and going along with Cook's strat, but does seem to be trying to spark conversation (which is NAI, I know, but to me it doesn't feel forced). I do have similar concerns with DArby as he outlined in 213. Also he stands by his thoughts and doesn't seem to be wishy washy and easily swayed even if those thoughts aren't broadly accepted and go against the grain)

Val: (one of the same reason as Spangled (albeit in a more accusatory manner)- he's asking people questions and genuinely seems to be trying to solve this. His interrogation of me comes across as a genuine townie)


NULL: Thynhith, Roden


SCUM: Margot (for putting forth a decent case on Cook and essentially at the point of no return backtracking and started TR-ing her for reasons still unbeknownst to me)

DArby (due to his constant pushing to try and secure the Cook elim, I've still got my beliefs he's trying to line up townies)

Just a coincidence you're scumreading the guys on your wagon, eh?
Well since you scumread Darby for pushing Cook's wagon, did Val not do the same, and arguably more aggressively? Yet you're townreading him. Margot backtracked, and she was correct in reading Cook as town. Do you think that was TMI coming from scum?
Your readlist comes across as extremely shallow.

just, sorry, haven’t read the last two pages, just wanted to say that quickly
his crumbs — or one of them, at least — were so obvious that I was pretty sure he wasn’t a PR, just either bad scum setting up a fakeclaim or a VT trying to draw the scum shot
what a play! what a fellow!

that’s the thing I deliberated on talking about before D1 end, btw, but I decided (rightly) it’d be better to wait, just in case he

was

in fact a PR, because to out him like that would be a wee bit embarrassing heh

This post is where Spangled draws attention to Galron crumbing to draw the NK. I'm assuming you must have read it while casing Spangled. Imo it was a scumplay drawing attention to the reason for their own kill - what did you think of it?

[MargotRosa]

I'm not engaging in the back and forth anymore. It's ridiculous, and looks bad.

My final word on it is this. You quoted, from Newbie 2075, post #2 and #14. You also ask whether there are any differences.

Facebones pointed out in 253 that they saw some. (As did I, but it's of no consequence now)

You asked "but which ones?"

They come back with points drawn from completely different posts than the ones you mentioned (posts 18 from 2075 and 134 from our game).

The change I was thinking of was https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12928671

VOTE: No elimination.

vs the one in this game

never no eliminate d1.

They then come back with reads from another post much later in 2075 to say the same thing:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12936258

If we no-eliminate, that will likely put us at 2 scum 6 town and we can get a confirm townie tomorrow.

This one as well as scum trying to convince people no elim D1 is a good strategy

She's changed her tune a little bit
Granted she might've just pushed the no elim back to D2 instead of D1

Again, these all came out well after it was stated by FB that they'd been through the thread.

I'm dropping this conversation, because I don't know that there's much worth saying to someone who, again, pushed hard on a wagon that led to a Town elimination, even after others tried to point out that the reasoning was faulty. Our back and forth is, at best, good for Scum, and at worst, just completely Scum indicative of your slot, and I want to Scum read you for something outside of your interactions with me before I make up my mind. It is notable to me that this is the second time I've felt this way

[Spangled]

I’ll give game-advancing content sometime, I swear. Problem is, I want to do a full reread of the thread and maybe some ISOs besides, both to answer Val’s question on where I’m at wrt DArby and Margot, and to get a handle on the game, and I haven’t had time so far. Soon.
tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow

[Val89]

I'm not engaging in the back and forth anymore. It's ridiculous, and looks bad.

I don't understand this attitude. Looks bad for whom? Frankly, if you think I am scum, and I am revealing myself as such through these interactions, then that's a positive for town and you would want them to continue, no?

I've been in a simular situation before, and as then, I get the impression the approach you are taking is less "I think Val is scum" and more "Val, you better drop this or else I might just start pushing you"; and I think you would have good cause to call me scum if, in fact, I allowed that sort of thing to disuasade me. By the way, want to hazzard a guess as to the alignment of the slot that made that implict threat?

Today, I feel as though the information Roden dug up is genuinely worth considering, and don't want to let you run off with another Town elimination today the way you did yesterday.

Either you have a tunnel problem, in which you're first gut read is the only one that sticks in your mind, or you're scum intentionally trying to sound persuasive while you lim Town without listening to anyone who disagrees with your reads? Which is it?

I'm dropping this conversation, because I don't know that there's much worth saying to someone who, again, pushed hard on a wagon that led to a Town elimination, even after others tried to point out that the reasoning was faulty

That's twice now in the last 3 posts you've tried to shade me based on yesterdays wagon. I think you are grossly overstating my ability to "lim Town without listening to anyone who disagrees with [my] reads". I don't have any extra voting power, here. Yes, pre-flip, I was happy with a D1 Cook lim, and advocated for such, but the lim happened because a majority of players voted for it, including yourself. I also still happen to think the Cook flip was good for town, even if it was a mis-lim. Cook did something that was regarded by many, not only myself, as being pretty darn scummy. There was always going to huge question mark over that slot, and I am happy to get that resolved early while there is a chance to recover. Can you imagine reaching a MYLO situation with Cook in it?

The situation is erriely similar to the opening of 2073; where I, pretty much me alone, pushed what I considered the scummiest slot (T3) until he did something that was widely regarded as scummy by everyone else as well (he faked claimed Mason before hammer range, if you can beleive that); and was quickly limmed. D2, I took flack for having pushed T3 "based on a flimsy case and basically rides it, tunneling him until T3 gets mislimed". Again, want to hazzard a guess at the alignment of the slot making that charge?

On the subject of the content of the actual disagreement we were having, I think I understand better what you were trying to say with 651 now. I don't know if you had spotted, and accounted for the fact the FB dive was prompted when you said you could "get behind" the point he did so might be town indicative, but it appears we are in the world where you have considered it now, and decided it doesn't change your view, because I linked post 76, and he must have read as far as 140. I may disagree, but having explained that, that at least appears to be a reasonable basis for holding a differing view.

I am not, however, going to appologise for pushing for you to explain those reasons in manner that I could understand, because it initially looked to me like you were making it up as you went along, and if that was true, that would have clearly given us some indication as to your alignment.

[schadd_]

the book '1984' was written on a computer

vote count 2.3

Facebones (2):

DArby, Thynhith

DArby (1):

Facebones

not voting (4):

Spangled, Val89, Roden, MargotRosa

with 7 alive, it takes 4 to eliminate. day 2 ends in (expired on 2021-10-17 20:00:00)

[DArby]

I can’t tell if adding to the Margot/Val debate is a useful endeavor or not. Margot’s slot confuses me. A lot of her reactions come across in a weirdly emotional way and I’m not sure if that’s beef with Val or speaks on something greater. I still don’t understand how she could disagree w 2/3 of what Roden said and then back off the FB wagon?

Regardless this is giving me strong d1 deja vu. A lot of the town is out so I guess this is what we get but this isn’t incredibly productive. Can we instead focus on Thyn or me or Spangled or Roden or anyone who’s actually here more so this doesn’t feel so circular.

[Facebones]

Just a coincidence you're scumreading the guys on your wagon, eh?

From memory 3 or 4 people have been on my wagon at varying times
What am I supposed to do, scumread the 2 who haven't been?

[Facebones]

Do you think that was TMI coming from scum?

It's absolutely possible
Margot, can you please explain your thought process?
What clicked in your head?

[Facebones]

Your readlist comes across as extremely shallow.

Bit snarky, but alright?
I guess it fits me to a T then

[DArby]

Just a coincidence you're scumreading the guys on your wagon, eh?

From memory 3 or 4 people have been on my wagon at varying times
What am I supposed to do, scumread the 2 who haven't been?

This is such a weird thing to say? You shouldn’t base reads lists based off whether or not someone is scum reading you to begin with.

[DArby]

In a wild twist of events the only 2 players I think are trustable are Thyn and Val.