Newbie 2081 | Game Over

[Greeting]

Meh, I’ll answer what I want. First they’re unhappy that I wasn’t investigative enough. Now they’re unhappy that I’m too investigative. Sounds like someone is so hellbent on me being scum that they’re looking for arguments to support the thesis rather than gather the thesis from several arguments.

Doesn’t mean it’s a scumtell. Probably a really stubborn townie. There’s nothing I can do if y’all want to vote me out.

[MegAzumarill]

Who r u talking about?

[Greeting]

You, obviously.

[MegAzumarill]

You refusing to answer questions is not a good look for you
Its also not helpful for town if you are town

[Greeting]

Neither is you trying to force me to focus all the time on dealing with your theories to defend myself. I’ll keep doing my thing, thanks.

[MegAzumarill]

Ok but thats the part you seem keen on answering

You are ignoring my questions on YOUR reads.

Overall you haven't really given any reasoning as to why you have the reads the way that you have them, in spite of being asked to give your case multiple times.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Why do you think that Kenny supported my wagon, Greeting?

[Greeting]

Why do you think that Kenny supported my wagon, Greeting?

They, themselves said, in 211 that since the wagon was slowly picking up, they didn’t want to be in the front row.

In many games the scums can on each other in order to distance themselves from one another and to confuse town when players look back at the voting history.

But there’s also a possibility that you’re town and staying on it would incriminate them.

Anyway, I really didn’t like the fact that they refused to pick anyone else or even consider picking someone whom they find even slightly suspicious.

[MegAzumarill]

Why do you think that Kenny supported my wagon, Greeting?

They, themselves said, in 211 that since the wagon was slowly picking up, they didn’t want to be in the front row.

In many games the scums can on each other in order to distance themselves from one another and to confuse town when players look back at the voting history.

But there’s also a possibility that you’re town and staying on it would incriminate them.

Anyway, I really didn’t like the fact that they refused to pick anyone else or even consider picking someone whom they find even slightly suspicious.

You literally quoted the post where they said they didnt agree with your scumread?

[Greeting]

Ok but thats the part you seem keen on answering

You are ignoring my questions on YOUR reads.

Overall you haven't really given any reasoning as to why you have the reads the way that you have them, in spite of being asked to give your case multiple times.

That’s intriguing because I feel like I’ve spent 70% of my energy in this game on dealing with your doubts and nothing really came out of it.

[MegAzumarill]

Ok but thats the part you seem keen on answering

You are ignoring my questions on YOUR reads.

Overall you haven't really given any reasoning as to why you have the reads the way that you have them, in spite of being asked to give your case multiple times.

That’s intriguing because I feel like I’ve spent 70% of my energy in this game on dealing with your doubts and nothing really came out of it.

So why to you choose only answer questions about my doubts rather than your reads?

[Greeting]

Ok but thats the part you seem keen on answering

You are ignoring my questions on YOUR reads.

Overall you haven't really given any reasoning as to why you have the reads the way that you have them, in spite of being asked to give your case multiple times.

That’s intriguing because I feel like I’ve spent 70% of my energy in this game on dealing with your doubts and nothing really came out of it.

So why to you choose only answer questions about my doubts rather than your reads?

Not every question is worth answering. Like promised, I’ll expand on Jake later.

[MegAzumarill]

Ok but thats the part you seem keen on answering

You are ignoring my questions on YOUR reads.

Overall you haven't really given any reasoning as to why you have the reads the way that you have them, in spite of being asked to give your case multiple times.

That’s intriguing because I feel like I’ve spent 70% of my energy in this game on dealing with your doubts and nothing really came out of it.

So why to you choose only answer questions about my doubts rather than your reads?

Not every question is worth answering. Like promised, I’ll expand on Jake later.

But the ones you say are not worth answering are the ones you do answer?

You keep dancing around the point without addressing it

[Jake The Wolfie]

They, themselves said, in 211 that since the wagon was slowly picking up, they didn’t want to be in the front row.

Because, as they said, it was an RVS vote, which gives them total legitimacy to remove their vote.

Them removing their RVS vote also leads to the idea that they in fact did not support my wagon, otherwise they would have.. well, not removed their vote.

[MegAzumarill]

They, themselves said, in 211 that since the wagon was slowly picking up, they didn’t want to be in the front row.

Because, as they said, it was an RVS vote, which gives them total legitimacy to remove their vote.

Them removing their RVS vote also leads to the idea that they in fact did not support my wagon, otherwise they would have.. well, not removed their vote.

In that post it also says they disagree with greeting's read

[Greeting]

They, themselves said, in 211 that since the wagon was slowly picking up, they didn’t want to be in the front row.

Because, as they said, it was an RVS vote, which gives them total legitimacy to remove their vote.

Them removing their RVS vote also leads to the idea that they in fact did not support my wagon, otherwise they would have.. well, not removed their vote.

Like I said before, my issue with that is not that they disagreed on voting you out but the fact that they did not pick an alternative.

[Jake The Wolfie]

They, themselves said, in 211 that since the wagon was slowly picking up, they didn’t want to be in the front row.

Because, as they said, it was an RVS vote, which gives them total legitimacy to remove their vote.
Them removing their RVS vote also leads to the idea that they in fact did not support my wagon, otherwise they would have.. well, not removed their vote.

Like I said before, my issue with that is not that they disagreed on voting you out but the fact that they did not pick an alternative.

I don't see a problem with them not choosing an alternative. Unvoting isn't some sort of forbidden idea, it's something that we employ when we don't know who to vote. I feel like you're trying to scald Kenny for not sharing all of his thoughts about the game in one post, which seems a little unreasonable given that he wasn't prompted to do so.

[DaTacoX]

It is always right to consider who might be the second scum. But one has to also consider that the two scum players might not have acted obviously connected. If they coordinate very carefully they might leave no visibal connection whatsoever. This is especially true in day one where there is not much evidence in any direction.

As it is highly unlikely to identify both scum players on day one and vote one of them out by majority, I won`t condemn someone who votes someone else out but has no obvious scum partner at hand. And if I read everyones reads correctly, there are not many townreads overall. So there are always many possible scum-partners around.

I might not agree with Greetings read on Jake and the consequences he makes out of them, I agree with him in taking one step at a time.

And as there seems to be a wagon building on Jake with me sitting in the front row, I would like to remove my RVS vote:

UNVOTE: Jake

Do you have a better candidate to vote out? If the answer is yes then whom and why? If the answer is no, then what would be the most ideal outcome of Day One in your opinion?

No, I don't have any better candidate. The most ideal outcome of day one would of course be a scum elim (most prefered the roleblocker or the rolecop, if the setup has one of them in it). But the chances to get that result are at about 22 % (if I did the math right).

Then why are you choosing to unvote without picking a different candidate?

If you’re talking percentages then I gather that you have no suspects and rely only on mathematics? Correct me if I’m wrong. If that is true then why aren’t you choosing a candidate at random?

While I don’t have an issue with you disagreeing to vote out Jake, I don’t like the unvote when stuff got a bit heated. Sounds like you don’t want to get your hands dirty with a possible miselim.

I did something similar when I took my rvs vote off of you earlier. I held on to it a little while until I found someone I thought actually had a good chance to be correct.
Granted, there wasn't really any pressure there, but I don't think that was very unreasonable for kenny.

It's Greeting/catboi

Are you serious about this? Or at the very least do you slightly scum read them?

[DaTacoX]

Don't really care for the readslist from DTX in 174 though that may be my own personal bias against unsupprted readslists. I

do

think the immediate re-evaluation and second guessing in 177 is a good look, and a flourish I think an inexperienced scum player would be unlikely to come up with. The reasoning in 185 is

okay

, I think. Nothing necessarily earthshaking but in some way alleviates my concern that Taco hasn't had much in the way of thoughts on the game.

I like the line of thought from Greeting in 188 about testing Taco to see if he was just copying him. To me that feels like a really towny line of thinking. I think in general the wall in that post shows a decent attempt at evaluating the game, I didn't thinl his response to being pushed to E-1 early was scummy, probably a townlean.

I'm not really sure what to make of Jake's turn toward logic pedantry in response to being attacked. In a way I like what he's doing because when I'm not flailing irrationally I like to question people attacking me to get them to clarify their thinking, see if they're being genuine and possibly get them to rethink faulty reasoning. But it's a really easy fallback as mafia and I'm partly worried he's just doing it to deflect here. I kind of like 193 in the seizing on a small slightly contradictory thing. I'd like it more if Jake was seemingly directing it in some way toward finding a scumread, but...blah. I just don't know.


For what it's worth, while it can be useful to look at and consider who someone's teammate could b, as this can lead to clearing someone if they just don't plausibly have a partner, I try to emphasize every game that it's not good to get too caught up in pre-flip associations and hunting for teams, especially on day 1, as that can often lead down false paths. Townies will often have incidental associations between each other that might look bad, and I've seen new players in multiple games go down rabbit holes of thinking they had a team found that led them astray. It's not a good way to scumhunt. I don't like that line of defense from Jake.

Do you mean that I didn't provide enough info with my reads or that the list itself was uncalled for?

[hops]

Sorry, what does BPIC and CFD stand for?

VOTE: Jake the Wolfie

Also, I think I need to go and reread the whole thread pretty soon before the day ends, but if we want to get a lim happening then Jake is on my list for "most likely to be scum", granted that's still less than 50% chance IMO for them to be scum. I don't have any firm reasons or scumread on Jake, just that it seems likely by process of elimination of people more likely to be town, which is also why I don't think I need to wait for Greeting to explain. kennyk is second on the list because of his voting irregularities, but it could just be fear of mislim. I don't feel a Jake/kennyk scumteam being a thing.

I'd also like an explanation from the cow on his Greeting/catboi scumteam theory.

I think that the back-and-forth between Meg and Greeting is a waste of my brain energy to analyze so I'll look at it after we have more info.

[Jake The Wolfie]

So the lines are drawn, Greeting vs Jake.

I will fight vigorously to be killed at night rather than during the day.

(CFD, or Chinese Fire Drill, refers to the rapid changing of a wagon from one player to another, usually near the end of the day. This is the Mafia usage of the word, of course.)

[Jake The Wolfie]

Also, could you give a case for why you are scumreading me, or at least who else is in your PoE (Process of Elimination)?

[catboi]

It's Greeting/catboi

Scratch one for you being able to read me. I want to say this is town-indicative anyway though.

[catboi]

Do you mean that I didn't provide enough info with my reads or that the list itself was uncalled for?

Right, the lack of info combined with with not necessarily feeling like I could see reasons for those reads. It's easy for anyone to throw names in a list in some order, harder to support the order of that list with believable reasoning if someone is scum.

This is very much a personal hangup of mine and not something that is common among most players. And, like I said, posts after are fine and clarify things enough for me, I don't need you to go into detail.

[kennyk]

It is always right to consider who might be the second scum. But one has to also consider that the two scum players might not have acted obviously connected. If they coordinate very carefully they might leave no visibal connection whatsoever. This is especially true in day one where there is not much evidence in any direction.

As it is highly unlikely to identify both scum players on day one and vote one of them out by majority, I won`t condemn someone who votes someone else out but has no obvious scum partner at hand. And if I read everyones reads correctly, there are not many townreads overall. So there are always many possible scum-partners around.

I might not agree with Greetings read on Jake and the consequences he makes out of them, I agree with him in taking one step at a time.

And as there seems to be a wagon building on Jake with me sitting in the front row, I would like to remove my RVS vote:

UNVOTE: Jake

Do you have a better candidate to vote out? If the answer is yes then whom and why? If the answer is no, then what would be the most ideal outcome of Day One in your opinion?

No, I don't have any better candidate. The most ideal outcome of day one would of course be a scum elim (most prefered the roleblocker or the rolecop, if the setup has one of them in it). But the chances to get that result are at about 22 % (if I did the math right).

Then why are you choosing to unvote without picking a different candidate?

If you’re talking percentages then I gather that you have no suspects and rely only on mathematics? Correct me if I’m wrong. If that is true then why aren’t you choosing a candidate at random?

While I don’t have an issue with you disagreeing to vote out Jake, I don’t like the unvote when stuff got a bit heated. Sounds like you don’t want to get your hands dirty with a possible miselim.

Yes, those numbers are pure math. But even the mild suspicions I might have don`t change those numbers because I have no way of knowing if they are true or not.

I never said I agreed or disagreed with Jake being voted out. But my vote on him was still a vote from the RVS. And as this suggests it was random. In the stage we are in right now I don`t want to be on any waggon with such an early random vote. If I was to be on an elim wagon it had to be a somewhat backed up vote.