Open 834: Trust Fall - Game Over

[cool cookie]

Cookie i feel like in your completed large you played much more.. normally? I dont know how to put it

Are you trying to change your playing style for alt purposes here?

i guess the answer is we all evolve as players and post differently in different circumstances. its one of the weaknesses of meta. i think in my only completed game i was criticised early for going against the consensus, but my early reads were wrong and so I adapted swiftly after the first couple flips. it was a town stomp but i did successfully get myself off the shopping block. this is a different game though - I think I was here from the start instead of replacing in?, and it's an open setup which requires a bit more thought and strategy. initially i was very laid back this game and perhaps I should have been more vocal from the start although it hasnt hurt us so far. im not much a big spammer anyway.

[cool cookie]

i do feel happy with how i played ok so far though, good initial reads and didn't get into any fisticuffs.

just a thought - scum more likely to distance in this setup, given they may need to justify not pairing with each other?

[Prism]

Can you give a summary of where you're currently at with reads? The players you have trusted have all already left or are about to.

I'd also like it if you were able translate that speculation about scum distancing into practical application (ie. Are there players that

might

be doing this? I'm not asking you to hard commit any such speculation being right)

[Prism]

I'm gonna stick with

Vote: Tammy

for today. I'm not sure it matters though if the days are now pre-determined and I'm not pairing until late game (other than for personal pride). and perhaps there is some benefit in democratically assigning specific pairings as a failed pair through an agreed method could be scum-scum. although I'm at risk of talking about town strategy here as Ydrasse said earlier. all I can think is if the townies are very much on the back-foot in influencing decisions, it could play right into scums hands. I guess people will follow their own reads if they have them, for better or worse. Perhaps I should instead focus only on the final 4 players, although maybe it's game over before then. these are mostly musings to myself I think.

...Revisiting this, I'm just not sure who you're thinking is scummy/towny here?

These pairings had Dwlee and Ydrasse weigh in, both of whom flipped town. They had Tammy weigh in, who you are currently trusting. Are you townreading some of the people left out? Scumreading some number of me/Wisdom/Enchant?

[cool cookie]

Can you give a summary of where you're currently at with reads? The players you have trusted have all already left or are about to.

I'd also like it if you were able translate that speculation about scum distancing into practical application (ie. Are there players that

might

be doing this? I'm not asking you to hard commit any such speculation being right)

yeah most of my focus has been on who to trust, rather than not trust, if that makes sense. although you're right that might not be relevant for my status in this game. I really hope Infinity is not town, ISO is not a good read at all. caught in an inconsistency at the outset (demonstrated knowledge of the rules in first post, and then in like second post claimed to not know the rules to defend someone). but mostly lots of TMI statements like "Player X is town" without any sense of how that opinion was reached, and majorly focussed on finding scum (potentially looking at that final 4 situation and looking to reach a good enough position on the totem pole to get paired with one of the unexplained townreads). I will always try to keep an open mind but bad vibes there for sure. I need to look at other players more closely.

on second question, I hadn't looked at it properly at that stage I was just thinking. It depends on motive. For instance, if Infinity is scum, the focus was on shading mafmen a lot early. Could be that distancing, or could be trying to push someone else down a rung (looking at the ISO it feels a bit more like the latter, although ISO lacks game context). It's probably easier to think about when we narrow down the field - if the wisdom 6 are all town, looking at those mafia pairings should be more useful. do you think its dangerous for me to share too much knowledge? it could make the gamestate easier for mafia to manipulate.

[Prism]

If the "Wisdom 6" are town, the game ends in a town win. There's no more narrowing to be had.

[Prism]

My current predicament is that I trust MafMen more then Enchant, but trust Enchant more than Infinity/cookie/Klick.

If Enchant is scum, those 4 (MafMen/Infinity/cookie/Klick) have to make another pairing. Very few other people share my MafMen read to begin with, but even in a world where he got to choose picking a decisively town out of those 3 is HARD

[cool cookie]

I'm gonna stick with

Vote: Tammy

for today. I'm not sure it matters though if the days are now pre-determined and I'm not pairing until late game (other than for personal pride). and perhaps there is some benefit in democratically assigning specific pairings as a failed pair through an agreed method could be scum-scum. although I'm at risk of talking about town strategy here as Ydrasse said earlier. all I can think is if the townies are very much on the back-foot in influencing decisions, it could play right into scums hands. I guess people will follow their own reads if they have them, for better or worse. Perhaps I should instead focus only on the final 4 players, although maybe it's game over before then. these are mostly musings to myself I think.

...Revisiting this, I'm just not sure who you're thinking is scummy/towny here?

These pairings had Dwlee and Ydrasse weigh in, both of whom flipped town. They had Tammy weigh in, who you are currently trusting. Are you townreading some of the people left out? Scumreading some number of me/Wisdom/Enchant?

I think I have given thoughts on these earlier but fine to repeat. I don't think the mech reason for Enchant being town is robust, on my gut read, lean town but definitely not a lock. On Wisdom it depends on the answer to my Pooky question - if Pooky had a good reason for thinking Wisdom was scum, I'd want to see what it was before jumping to the conclusion Wisdom is town - he was very vehement about it. I haven't really looked at you at all since that ping earlier for engaging with me - so would need a reread. Although as noted, my thoughts on you 3 are probably not useful as the decision has already been made. I think consensus pairings could be a good strategy overall - although as I wasn't part of that consensus I don't feel the same sense of ownership of them - it isn't from any disrespect to other players that my opinions could differ, and there's naturally some townie paranoia. We even saw yesterday a town player misread me, but I don't take that personally.

I suppose the lack of opposition to that consensus makes me wary it might be something scum are on board with (noting that in that scenario, you could argue I'm prime candidate for scum, although my pov of course i'm not). if scum is like Klick-Infinity, would they really just let the game be taken from them? so maybe, in my paranoid mind, there is scum in the consensus town. and to be fair, if I'm wrong I've hedged my bets because I win anyway.

[cool cookie]

If the "Wisdom 6" are town, the game ends in a town win. There's no more narrowing to be had.

ah you're right, but hopefully the principle still makes sense - fewer permutations mean analysing 1-1 relationships is more fruitful.

[Prism]

Thanks for answering all of that. I'll chew on it for a bit. I'll also wait for other people to chip in about my concerns re: Enchant, F4.

I'm still okay with some pairings of me/Enchant/Wisdom/Tammy.

[MafMen]

My current predicament is that I trust MafMen more then Enchant, but trust Enchant more than Infinity/cookie/Klick.

If Enchant is scum, those 4 (MafMen/Infinity/cookie/Klick) have to make another pairing. Very few other people share my MafMen read to begin with, but even in a world where he got to choose picking a decisively town out of those 3 is HARD

i would not trust me with a make or break decision

[cool cookie]

I guess Prism I would say I could see a world where you are scum with someone you really don't rate/like. in real time, I was interested in you frequently berating yourself for seemingly no obvious reason, and seeming a bit angry/disgruntled with everything. it would accord a bit with potential scum who are not in the favoured pairings at that stage. included some examples below:

Against my better judgement I caught up on the game.

Not a great game for me readswise.

Overall I'm really struggling to find any townreads...
I guess for now I'll just stay out of the way for the most part.

I fuckin' can't this game lmao

I'll have someone come fetch me when I decide to stop playing like absolute fucking trash

[Prism]

My standards and expectations for my own play are quite high. There are a few different players that can corroborate this.

[cool cookie]

i don't really see what you'd done so badly though? it was early in Day 1, and with the benefit of hindsight, town players seemed to be the focal point of trust conversations - nothing really bad had happened. Seems quite extreme even from an absolute perfectionist. I can see the argument you would keep composure more as scum and not vent like that though, if you are a really expert player. I don't know you well enough to know if you are a cool cookie under pressure. But equally I can't think of seeing something quite like that before, and often scum players can find it harder to get into the game than town ones (lack of genuine solving mentality etc.) As you kindly offer meta, I'd be interested to see a completed game example of similar behaviour though?

hitting the hay for now, don't worry we'll get there though.

[cool cookie]

not much sorting from Klick towards Infinity - just a soft drop of "I'm liking Infinity" without explanation, and a bit of chatter. which is slightly surprising given Klick does attempt to understand alignments of other players in a more meaningful way. Meanwhile Infinity makes an effort to defend Klick a bit without going overboard. which does make some strategic sense in a Klick-Infinity world - no sense trying to distance when the tide is very much against you. At risk of confbias I'd simply say it wouldn't shock me.

Mafmen is a blind spot for me, note to come back to next.

[Tammy]

Prism - Earlier you talked about pooky's reads ability. I'm having such a hard time wording today. You talked about him as having decent reads. What do you make of his wisdom or mafmen reads?

[Prism]

I think his reaction to Wisdom was absolutely batshit insane and I will have zero sympathy for him even if Wisdom flipped scum.

I believe his MafMen read was along the lines of that a town player would have backed off instead of arguing over nothing for no reason. I think Pooky disproved himself.

I did not respect Pooky's reads at all this game and to be blunt it is a miracle that I plan on treating him like this game never happened postgame as opposed to something more viscerally negative.

[Prism]

I think I am being a bit unfair about his MafMen read but I did not find it persuasive either and personally took the opposite stance after my reread.

[Tammy]

Oh I forgot earlier when I thought about it that the worst believes? he can read wisdom well and had him as town, so that sort of counterbalances that.

[Tammy]

Mostly I was in a moment of should I be caring about or putting any weight on the reads of the dead town.

[Prism]

For cool cookie re: meta request I'd have to review my games specifically, might do it when I get bored. I have made similar selfcomplaints in my scum PTs but never in postgames. As town I know I felt this way in illicit, Chara's Folly, and to a lesser extent Warehouse 13 but those ISOs are gigantic.

[Prism]

For cool cookie re: meta request I'd have to review my games specifically, might do it when I get bored. I have made similar selfcomplaints in my scum PTs but never in

postgames

public

. As town I know I felt this way in illicit, Chara's Folly, and to a lesser extent Warehouse 13 but those ISOs are gigantic.

EBWOP

[Tammy]

You kinda did in girls girls girls though, unless I'm missing what you mean by self complaints.

[Tammy]

I'm amused that both the replacements trusted and peaced within hours of replacing in. Maybe we are playing it wrong. lol

[Prism]

Which one? I blocked out 1 from my memory but my issue iirc was never having the time to actually read the game. I was very intentional to appeal to user sympathy, but here cookie is suggesting that I let an emotion bleed through rather than simply faked it.