Manatee's Pokemon Large Theme | Game Over

[imaginality]

"As an active action, evolution may not be performed alongside another action by the player."

[mastina]

Mmmmmk I see a semi-guilty so I figure we should claim
Pooky and I are the vig - we have a hood and we had a joint shot to kill someone that we used to kill Gypyx. Since Pooky repped in night 1 I gave him a list of like five different people I thought we could vig and he chose Gypyx. If Pooky is scum he definitely could have chosen someone else who was town in the pool I gave him.

UNVOTE: Pookythemagicalbear

Well that's enough to take Pooky from scum candidate to conftown to me (as well as confirm SirCakez is innocent aside from the Firebringer result).

Pooky never busses on D1 and I'd like to think that a N1 vig shot counts as an extension of D1 in bussing, so like. Shooting scum IS indeed a hard-clear to me when it comes to Pooky.

So I guess scum just shot at TIL.

[Save The Dragons]

how many times do we have to go over the fact that nobody read the rules

[Truth Innuendos Lies]

I investigated Milo because I was suspicious of that slot and it seemed like others weren't so much so I figured I wouldn't be doubling up on someone else's choice. And given lack of suspicion on them it seemed like if they were part of the scum team they might be the ones who'd carry out the kill.

I didn't use it last night because I thought it might be worth saving til later game - we'd just limmed scum and I wasn't a likely NK target so there wasn't any rush.

I assume scum fake claims wouldn't be investigative roles in a game with a bunch of town investigatives but who knows.

There are enough roleblocking powers around also for it to maybe seem balanced like half the investigative shots likely get blocked. Plus there's a godfather.

I claimed now because we have enough claims already and enough advantage that we can win best by deciding as a town what to do compared to keeping remaining roles secret longer.

Did you just perspective slip with this?

VOTE: Imaginality

~I

My point is, my claim is not a likely fake claim for scum to be given if there's a bunch of other investigative roles around?

That’s not a great answer. It’s a really strange thing to say, especially the “but who knows” part. When I was defending my role yesterday, that never even entered my head. It just reads kind’ve tmi to me.

Your D1 claim was on rolestopped slot, so inconclusive and you claim no further actions.

~I

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

what rules

[DkKoba]

A rules reader.
Gross

[Truth Innuendos Lies]

Though she might be the gf so

And she still hasnt claimed what she did last night btw

Well, Gamma is off the charts super obvtown and I don’t understand the STD sr either.

Maybe Titus and Imaginality are distancing?

How’d I get brought up

Titus speculated on you and STD as PoE.

~I

[Gamma Emerald]

I fucking hate how actually reading the rules is met with disdain
I’m not great at it myself but I actually respect people for doing that because it keeps the rest of us honest

[mastina]

But someone said Pooky doesnt bus so ugh

Well, Pooky's never bussed on D1 ever.

I imagine bussing after D1 has happened albeit probably more of a rarity, and

technically

, a N1 vig shot isn't D1 so Pooky COULD be scum without breaking the sacred no-bus-D1 rule, but given it's literally a vig shot on a fairly strong scum PR, I'd certainly think that it's not Pooky as scum and that N1 counted as an extension of D1 in that it's still before D2 info comes to light so like. Not 100% hard-cleared but I'd still go like 99%.

So that brings me, personally, to:

Milobird has no clear but this is Bell's townplay and also notty looks insanely town af anyway.
Gamma Emerald's the rolestopper who counterclaimed Dwlee and is thus basically conftown here.
Truth Innouendos Lies is both obvtown from play and also the source of the cop guilty on Dwlee and thus IS conftown here. Not to mention was likely the scum nightkill last night.
SirCakez has a clear*, and is thus incredibly unlikely to be scum, plus is half of the vig.
MathBlade has a clear*, and on top of that is a role incredibly likely to be town.
Titus is a friendly neighbor and is thus conftown.
Pooky is half of the vig and from a list of five from which Pooky could select anyone, Pooky selected a strong scum PR to kill and is thus, 99% likely town.

*godfather's not flipped but confirmed to exist so all clears are not 100%

So removing those, it leaves:
Save The Dragons
Wisdom
imaginality
WhemeStar (has roleclaimed but roleclaim isn't clearing tho it DOES influence my read)
chowchow (Anonymous Hydra)
Malakittens / Kitty Trauma Team (kuribo + Malakittens) (has roleclaimed but roleclaim doesn't affect my read)
DkKoba Thestatusquo (has roleclaimed but this roleclaim doesn't affect my read)

From there, I still have a townread on STD and Wisdom (I realize this isn't universal) and think that Malakittens and DKKoba are still less likely to be scum from play alone.
I also think that WhemeStar's claim is incredibly likely to be a town one.

Which leaves my personal initial "PoE" (it's not really one since some of the names here aren't so much scumreads as much as "I personally cannot get a read there RIGHT NOW even if others can and think the slot is town") as:
{imaginality, chowchow} for 2 scum remaining.

But I suppose to be objective, the objective pool should be,
{

WhemeStar

,

DKKoba

,

STD, Wisdom

, Malakittens, imaginality, chowchow}
Where underlined are incredibly unlikely to be scum by role/play, and italicized are personal townreads of mine of significant strength.

If it's a given that {Malakittens, imaginality, chowchow} contains two scum, I, personally, would think the town of the three would be Malakittens so I suppose I should do this:
VOTE: imaginality

(Again tho feel free to correct me if I am wrong on things here.)

[imaginality]

That’s not a great answer. It’s a really strange thing to say, especially the “but who knows” part. When I was defending my role yesterday, that never even entered my head. It just reads kind’ve tmi to me.

Your D1 claim was on rolestopped slot, so inconclusive and you claim no further actions.

N2 not D1.

My point is like, there are so many investigative roles that a. It seems kinda mean for the mods to give scum an investigative fakeclaim and b. At this point in the game, if they had such a fakeclaim, would they use it compared to claim something else?

I mean if I'm scum there's a bajillion better fake claims I could have made

[MathBlade]

But someone said Pooky doesnt bus so ugh

Well, Pooky's never bussed on D1 ever.

I imagine bussing after D1 has happened albeit probably more of a rarity, and

technically

, a N1 vig shot isn't D1 so Pooky COULD be scum without breaking the sacred no-bus-D1 rule, but given it's literally a vig shot on a fairly strong scum PR, I'd certainly think that it's not Pooky as scum and that N1 counted as an extension of D1 in that it's still before D2 info comes to light so like. Not 100% hard-cleared but I'd still go like 99%.

So that brings me, personally, to:

Milobird has no clear but this is Bell's townplay and also notty looks insanely town af anyway.
Gamma Emerald's the rolestopper who counterclaimed Dwlee and is thus basically conftown here.
Truth Innouendos Lies is both obvtown from play and also the source of the cop guilty on Dwlee and thus IS conftown here. Not to mention was likely the scum nightkill last night.
SirCakez has a clear*, and is thus incredibly unlikely to be scum, plus is half of the vig.
MathBlade has a clear*, and on top of that is a role incredibly likely to be town.
Titus is a friendly neighbor and is thus conftown.
Pooky is half of the vig and from a list of five from which Pooky could select anyone, Pooky selected a strong scum PR to kill and is thus, 99% likely town.

*godfather's not flipped but confirmed to exist so all clears are not 100%

So removing those, it leaves:
Save The Dragons
Wisdom
imaginality
WhemeStar (has roleclaimed but roleclaim isn't clearing tho it DOES influence my read)
chowchow (Anonymous Hydra)
Malakittens / Kitty Trauma Team (kuribo + Malakittens) (has roleclaimed but roleclaim doesn't affect my read)
DkKoba Thestatusquo (has roleclaimed but this roleclaim doesn't affect my read)

From there, I still have a townread on STD and Wisdom (I realize this isn't universal) and think that Malakittens and DKKoba are still less likely to be scum from play alone.
I also think that WhemeStar's claim is incredibly likely to be a town one.

Which leaves my personal initial "PoE" (it's not really one since some of the names here aren't so much scumreads as much as "I personally cannot get a read there RIGHT NOW even if others can and think the slot is town") as:
{imaginality, chowchow} for 2 scum remaining.

But I suppose to be objective, the objective pool should be,
{

WhemeStar

,

DKKoba

,

STD, Wisdom

, Malakittens, imaginality, chowchow}
Where underlined are incredibly unlikely to be scum by role/play, and italicized are personal townreads of mine of significant strength.

If it's a given that {Malakittens, imaginality, chowchow} contains two scum, I, personally, would think the town of the three would be Malakittens so I suppose I should do this:
VOTE: imaginality

(Again tho feel free to correct me if I am wrong on things here.)

I fucking hate how actually reading the rules is met with disdain
I’m not great at it myself but I actually respect people for doing that because it keeps the rest of us honest

Why is Mastina town again?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Mastina only scumreads me when she's town

when she's scum her read of me is always "the towniest town to ever town"

[mastina]

mastina was scum who was unknowingly roleblocked by me

I thought of that but I think mastina's stop would resolve first since it directly affects your action

Depends on the wording used in the delayed PM, per the mod.

If DKKoba's role said, "choose a player, on the next night...", I wouldn't prevent the action.

If DKKoba's role said, "target a player, and on the next night...", I would prevent the action.

[Save The Dragons]

I mean if I'm scum there's a bajillion better fake claims I could have made

maybe i'm a sucker but i was thinking this about the claim before imagine posted this

[DkKoba]

mastina was scum who was unknowingly roleblocked by me

I thought of that but I think mastina's stop would resolve first since it directly affects your action

Depends on the wording used in the delayed PM, per the mod.

If DKKoba's role said, "choose a player, on the next night...", I wouldn't prevent the action.

If DKKoba's role said, "target a player, and on the next night...", I would prevent the action.

it uses target so ):

[mastina]

mastina, why'd you target dkkoba and only out that fact this day phase? Beforehand it seemed like you were good to hold your shot n2, why'd you use it?

I used it because I thought that DKKoba was going to either be the nightkill that night OR be roleblocked by the scum that night, and both were things my rolestop could prevent from happening and guarantee that DKKoba's rolestop action that night went through.

As for why I didn't claim it until today:

Well please wait to hear from Milobird before any action.

On that note I want DKKoba posting today, too; we shouldn't end the day before they've chimed in here.

There was a good reason for this. As much as I think DKKoba is town, I didn't want DKKoba to, if they are scum, be able to bullshit a fakeclaim, e.g. claiming that they were roleblocked last night. I wanted DKKoba to have posted so that they were locked into not being caught in a lie.

Now for the million-dollar question: why wasn’t I on FB? I THOUGHT KOBA WAS ACTUALLY GOING TO TARGET SMARTLY SO I TARGETED MILOBIRD!

Ditto, this would also be why I did not use my rolestop on someone like Firebringer; I thought DKKoba would be able to stop the nightkill.

Which I also hinted at here.

Ig unless mastina didn't use it on firebringer but I figure she would

I didn't use my action on Firebringer because I thought DKKoba would stop the nightkill with their ungated rolestop claim + being more in the game than I am + being able to predict the kill better than I could.

And here. I used my wording carefully, "I didn't use my action on Firebringer", because I used it on DKKoba to guarantee DKKoba could stop the kill with their ungated rolestop claim.

[Wisdom]

If DKKoba's role said, "choose a player, on the next night...", I wouldn't prevent the action.

Its on the same night that they targeted themselves, not the next, so you did block the action

[Truth Innuendos Lies]

Oh cool add Dwlee99 to Gypyx and Ralts on the pile of "scum shiftily sniffing for stuff to stir up so as to subtly scatter some sneaky suspicion on seemingly stand-up citizens"

As the person who started brain celll wagon I like the gypyx wagon more

Why?

I find this sequence of posts interesting. Idk why you would ask Wheme that question when you yourself had already expressed suspicion on gypyx.

~I

[mastina]

If Pooky literally never buses his buddies D1 doesn't that cross into a trust tell? Like instead of "I'm always town if I say I am" it's "I'm always town if I say 'vote X' and X flips scum D1"?

It's not a trust tell because it requires a lot of things that Pooky could break at any time, it's just disadvantageous for Pooky to do so. Pooky never bussing on D1 is true for the like 20 years Pooky's been playing, but any scum game

could

be the first, it's just that so far every game Pooky's attacked scum on D1 Pooky was town and every time Pooky has been scum, bussing scum on D1 would've been a very bad idea and borderline gamethrowing.

Just because a play has never been done before as scum does not mean the user is deliberately avoiding doing it as scum.

Like, this is a big thing for me, too. I never fakeclaim as scum, but it's not a trust tell from me because while I never have fakeclaimed as scum, I always

could

, it's just that it just so happens that in that particular game, fakeclaiming always is the wrong play where I would be at a disadvantage so telling the truth is me playing to my wincon.

If Pooky believes that bussing on D1 would be playing against his wincon as scum and that the optimal move to play to his wincon is to not bus, then in spite of his history of never bussing on D1, he will still not bus because in that game, it's the wrong call.

I can sum it up as basically this:
You are always to play towards the wincon in your

current

game.
If Pooky believes that a bus on D1 as scum is playing against wincon, then it doesn't matter that Pooky's never bussed on D1 before as scum, he's still playing to his perceived wincon in the current game. It happens to benefit his towngame, but just because it benefits his towngame does not mean it is sabotaging his scumgame.

That's the difference between a meta tell and a trust tell.

A meta tell is a tell that you could in theory break at any point, but you have reasons to have not done so. (Those reasons could be you genuinely don't know about the tell, but could just be that as town/scum you have different playstyles because you need to accomplish different things.)

A trust tell is a tell that you deliberately an actively enforce even when it is detrimental to your wincon to have done so, and the only reason to use it is to continue to abuse it in future games.

[mastina]

VOTE: imaginality
Really dislike that claim

Yup, especially the target.

Why Milobird, the slot which by meta is one of the towniest in the game? Did imaginality expect that a super duper secrit deepscum that was way out of their scum range would make the nightkill and risk being caught when they are super duper secrit deepscum that is way out of their established scum range?

It's literally one of the worst possible targets.

[Truth Innuendos Lies]

I mean if I'm scum there's a bajillion better fake claims I could have made

maybe i'm a sucker but i was thinking this about the claim before imagine posted this

Not really. He claimed to target a slot that was rolestopped and no result yesterday. He might not have been at risk for NK but he had to know he was a possible risk for elimination. Slots that should feel the most comfortable doing that are slots covering the sweet spot middle ground, which clearly wouldn’t fit Imaginality.

Iow, someone like you claiming that would actually be believable but not Imaginality imo.

~I

[mastina]

It’s amusing that Math didn’t believe my role because too many cops and then Imaginality claimed another one. So we have now: Fire, me, Math and apparently now Imaginality?

That on top of my role which could be any of the OP roles, albeit a oneshot version of them. I ended up with the rolestop, but I could've gotten any of {Your role, Firebringer's role, imaginality's role, DKKoba's role, WhemeStar's role}. Only one of them but still, I'm basically a +1 to either an OP investigative or a strong protective in this game.

And then we have the fact that WhemeStar is claiming a combined jailkeeper-watcher and that Gamma Emerald is a nearly unlimited rolestopper (with the slight gate of not the same target twice in a row).

While, per you, the scum have a godfather, what on earth in the scum's power is designed to counter 3.5 (+1 possible 1x) town investigatives and 3 (+1 possible 1x) town killstopper roles?

We eliminated a scum roleblocker (I am an idiot I forgot about this when deciding to rolestop DKKoba) who had a votesteal D1, but like...a roleblocker could only deal with one of those and even then not that effectively.

We eliminated a scum universal backup N1 to the vig, but like...that doesn't give scum extra counters to the town power.

We eliminated a scum rolestopper D3 who could help limit things and said rolestopper could take down a town role with them, but like...that's still not much in the way of counters to the town power.

The scum's tools don't give them much in the way of answers to the amount of strength the town power roles have.

[MathBlade]

It’s amusing that Math didn’t believe my role because too many cops and then Imaginality claimed another one. So we have now: Fire, me, Math and apparently now Imaginality?

That on top of my role which could be any of the OP roles, albeit a oneshot version of them. I ended up with the rolestop, but I could've gotten any of {Your role, Firebringer's role, imaginality's role, DKKoba's role, WhemeStar's role}. Only one of them but still, I'm basically a +1 to either an OP investigative or a strong protective in this game.

And then we have the fact that WhemeStar is claiming a combined jailkeeper-watcher and that Gamma Emerald is a nearly unlimited rolestopper (with the slight gate of not the same target twice in a row).

While, per you, the scum have a godfather, what on earth in the scum's power is designed to counter 3.5 (+1 possible 1x) town investigatives and 3 (+1 possible 1x) town killstopper roles?

We eliminated a scum roleblocker (I am an idiot I forgot about this when deciding to rolestop DKKoba) who had a votesteal D1, but like...a roleblocker could only deal with one of those and even then not that effectively.

We eliminated a scum universal backup N1 to the vig, but like...that doesn't give scum extra counters to the town power.

We eliminated a scum rolestopper D3 who could help limit things and said rolestopper could take down a town role with them, but like...that's still not much in the way of counters to the town power.

The scum's tools don't give them much in the way of answers to the amount of strength the town power roles have.

My role is kind of a catch 22 if I am miselimmed before the cop my shot doesn’t exist.

[imaginality]

There must be some games where it would have been more beneficial for Pooky to bus scum D1. If it's just a case that he's not needed to do far, then why do people place so much weight on it? "Pooky has never bussed D1" feels fine to me in a way which "Pooky never busses D1" doesn't.

[mastina]

then i feel confident mastina will jump on Imaginality too

I almost didn't because I actually missed imaginality's original claim as I tunnelvisioned in on the "isn't this a trust tell?" part of the post and actually deleted the claim from said post because I was too focused on making the point of it not being a trust tell.

...But then between you and DKKoba quoting it I spotted it and yeah it's probably a fakeclaim.

But that said I was voting imaginality

before

the claim

anyway

for a separate reason (imaginality being in the POE). So I technically didn't jump on due to the claim.

I am staying on there due to it tho!