Mini Normal 2246 - Game Over

[Wiki]

I dont believe that only townies elimed Three. So who of us? Salsa? That's all? You are townreading datisi and dwlee (I guess, I dont remember exactly), so who are scums here? Sely is conf.town. Only Salsa? She might be town still.

WHO IS SCUM, T3?

[Wiki]

+you tr andre

[Wiki]

im not sure about andre anymore. i wasnt sure honestly. i felt strange about him when he vote three and ran away. maybe rl thing. maybe not only that.

[Wiki]

andre, say genuinly why did you vote him? all the truth, all the reasons, even stupid ones if they exist. i guess i have some understanding, one option, but i wish to hear that, not to guess myself

[ChaosOmega]

Votecount 2.01

Wiki (2) - Datisi, Enchant
T3 (1) - Wiki

Not Voting (8) - Looker, Almost50, T3, Salsabil Faria, geraintm, Dorsey, Dwlee99, Iconeum

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes to eliminate someone.

Deadline

: (expired on 2021-11-13 12:36:44)

[Datisi]

im not sure about andre anymore. i wasnt sure honestly. i felt strange about him when he vote three and ran away. maybe rl thing. maybe not only that.

andre, say genuinly why did you vote him? all the truth, all the reasons, even stupid ones if they exist. i guess i have some understanding, one option, but i wish to hear that, not to guess myself

nice dumbslip bro

[Wiki]

datisi, t3 - scums

[Datisi]

Datisi, btw, I unvoted him and didn't hammer him immediately after the claim. Is it ok for mafia to cc after this with very low chance of success? I really believed he is scum, that's all.

nah, you unvoted him only later when you were begging for a hammer on him, and said you will hammer him yourself. and not like hammering him immedately after the claim would make you look any good?

keep pretending you have any reasons for scumreading me other than "didn't talk to t3" though.

[Datisi]

ironically enough, t3 is ignoring me now >_>

[T3]

A50, salsa, gera, Dorsey, swap one of those for a possible deepwf

[Wiki]

nah, you unvoted him only later when you were begging for a hammer on him, and said you will hammer him yourself. and not like hammering him immedately after the claim would make you look any good?

hey mafia, the chronology:
1) i protect him
2) he says we are not allies and votes me
3) i vote him on e-1
4) i unvote him
5) sely puts him on e-1
6) he claims jk
7) i start talking that i dont believe he is pr who attacks another townie on e-2 to get one more vote against himself
8) sely unvotes
9) im angry that he will survive this and i can be elimed instead of him, i cc and vote him on e-1
...
10) sely hammers him

[T3]

i can maybe see that universe existing

but also wiki panicking when he saw the main wagon claimed jk and counterclaiming to make sure it goes through sounds much more possible to me

do you think it's *likely*?

I didn’t notice this. I’m really not sure, but I’m leaning wiki town

[Enchant]

Wait did Wiki claim Jailkeeped killed original and then reclaimed townie?

[T3]

Wiki counter claimed jail keeper.

[Wiki]

some good posts of Three, townpings

Spoiler:

Bad Wiki.

So Dwlee probably is town then.

probably towny thinking with fast conclusions after getting new info (though it was wrong info)

Wanting to know why something is scummy is not a bad reaction. Get your head out of your ass.

too rude for a scum here, like i've already said

VOTE: Selynee

I think Wiki is mostly flailing. But there's a good point being made about Selynee and even he sees it.

+for attentiveness to everybody

Wiki, chill.

why do scum need to do it?

the more i'm reading, the less i'm liking the argument between sel and three. mainly what i mean, sel is still feeling scummy to me, but something feels off about three pushing her there? i dunno. like piggybacking off of wiki's posts (which was frankly Bad) and 297 feels icky to me. like i think it's pretty natural here for someone to go "you're scum sheeping wrong!town onto me so you can hide behind them once i flip", and three is trying to twist that into some sorta scum!indicative thinking of her own possible future elimination.

three, how much mafia experience do you have?

I have enough experience.

I don't understand why you think my push feels off, Sel's thought process here just doesn't make sense to me. Not even 24 hours into the game and with only three votes on her, it would take a massive suspension of disbelief to truly believe that not only was I going to be the driving force behind her elimination, and not only am I scum fortunate enough to find two townies making bad reads on her for me to hide behind, but she also believes I'm going to death tunnel her and have my Day 2 strat all planned out weeks in advance.

It just, makes no sense to me. She doesn't even question the alignment of you or Wiki, and she doesn't question anyone who voted her after I did. T3 even made a naked vote and that somehow doesn't catch her eye?

I'm fairly certain Sel's scum read on me is fake, and the fact that you're pressuring me more than she is should be telling of that.

+for attentiveness

Selynee (5) - Almost50, Three, Datisi, Iconeum T3

UNVOTE:
actually not sure how much of a fan of this wagon i am
a50 is shitposting and not really doing anything, three had that weird post towards sel that i thought was bad-faithy, and t3's hop on is weirdly out of the blue

let's try uhhh
one two seven VOTE: three

Not liking the bad-faith parroting of T3. It's a minor point, but you never said you that thought that, T3 did.

+++for attentiveness, i liked this post much at that moment, because i noticed the same before you said this

I don't see the obvious A50 town thing ico.

okay, so sell me on scum!A50? i don't see it

In my pervious games with them, they were more active as town. I don’t have scum meta on them though but they're lurking for some reason and the self vote is weird.

Meh, I think they don't really enjoy this game. Seemed like they were looking for some reactions to their self-vote, though not pushing a lot there...

Hmm can be, who do you propose to vote instead?

This feels pretty scum indicative. I don't know how you could be so lost on who to vote for that you need someone to tell you who to vote.

VOTE: Salsa

i quoted this just to say to you that the sense of her question was not to find a help to herself, but to hear the opinion of sely. i think you didnt get it.

@Three

I think Andre is town here. They come off as common sense stuff and like genuinely trying to solve stuff when they could just vote someone (like Dorsley) and be done with it. Like 869, 1213 and 1215. Like, that's no way someone would directly blame them for Dorsley getting miselim here (cuz the consensus is that he is playing badly if they are not mafia) and while wk might be a thing- I feel that would be easier to just let an easy miselim go on than trying to wk someone who barely posted.
Same for Faria. Like, they were scumreading her, made a case in 825 so post like 828 comes us genuinely trying to solve the game.

Datisi- I sort of like for the most part. Like I said, I didn't really like that vote on gera cuz it felt a bit...too easy, I guess. Like yes, his answer that they are parking the vote there after a pretty obvious fake claim was weird but didn't seem to consider what would be the motivation for maf!gera there to say that in that context. The whole conflict with Wiki doesn't seem very productive cuz I think Wiki is town...but that seem more frustration-related than anything else.

Almost is...meh. Actually, I think the most pro-town thing was trying to get reactions on his wagon but he didn't follow up.

I am still not sure about Dwelee. Not sure why maf them would want Faria to be elim so much today when she is already in a pretty bad position (aka might be elim without them getting the spotlight if she is town). Not a fan of the fact that never built a case here

Gamma- see 636. I like 815...the only thing I don't agree with is that he is proposing basically 1234. Don't agree with, doesn't mean I think it is a lot of maf motivation there.

Gera and Dorsley are somewhere between...why would mafia do this and well, they could easily be mafia going for "well, they'll think why would mafia do this"


And it's time for my daily walk outside (hoping I don't catch the virus) so I'll give my thoughts on the rest later today.

K, I wasn't killed by a serial killer in the park (just my luck) so...

Faria- Actually don't find much mafia motivation with her entry. Faking believing the claim would have been something if she could get an easy miselim (like if any of them were at E-1 or something) but none were in danger of being elim. Plus stuff like calling for a policy elim doesn't seem like coming from someone who wants to be seen as town cuz from my limited experience, this usually isn't popular.

T3- Not a fan of their progression. Not helped by the fact that he doesn't really provides much info but like 375 says Three's read is made in bad faith but votes me in 377. 521- honestly, don't get why they are only suspecting me of pocketing when the same argument can be used that you were pocketing Datisi or Wiki by agreeing with them. Also, not a fan of the progression on salsa-516- meta stuff, 936- honestly don't see what's so bad in that reaction. 956- asks about scum motivations here but doesn't insist on this. 959- agrees with Andre's case. And that's basically all. No longer question Salsa read. Seems a superficial read there.

Ico- Did I say I don't like early reads? Cuz they lack consistency- like, if you say you townread someone on page 5 and scumread them on page 25, you can easily say "Well, the first one was just early vibes, now I no longer feel the same vibes" and this can easily come from both mafia or town.
Like, I actually like 352 and 368. Feels like a genuine attempt to make sense of Wiki's fake claim. And their early points on Almost. Plus from all the reasons they could give for voting me there, don't think mafia would come with 1374

Alright, I actually really like these reads, and hunting down specific posts to support your reads is +town.

TOWN

Andres- I've already made my thoughts on him clear. Very rational and logical, genuine attempts at solving, and not afraid to be combative. Overall a very strong town read.

Dwlee- I think they just town told early on by being lively and ready to play. I misread them in 2242 but tbh I really did think they were TSTBS there, here they're not actually afraid to have reads and solve alignments.

TOWN LEAN

A50- Not really doing much but I vibed hard with 767. I considered town locking him but that just seems foolish this early on into the game. Feels very different from 2242 where he was town but he could just be bored.

Ico- Early game felt weak but I wanted to let him simmer and see what he'd do over time. I like his more recent pushes, I just think he's wasting his time with Wiki.

Wiki- Probably town, I briefly considered him to be a potential Traitor just making a bunch of noise to provide cover for the scum team while guaranteeing he'd never get NK'd...but then he claimed PR for no reason. I just want him to chill if he's actually town, because he's going to get himself mislimmed if he keeps making a scene every god damn day.

NULL

Geraintm- Kinda hate that he's essentially refusing to play the game but that's apparently meta for him. It just means he can get away with it when he does roll scum though. If he doesn't start doing things Day 2 he needs to be auto-yeeted.

Sel- The reads list was genuinely townie, I'm re-evaluating your slot now and wondering if my earlier scum read on you was just wrong. I need more time to figure you out but I don't think you should ever be today's elim.

T3- Honestly, idk. I feel like I had a pretty good read on him in 2242 but lost him at the last second by trying to outguess the mod. He did scum slip hard though, so I guess he should just be sortable over time.

SCUM LEAN

Datisi- He made a lot of bad faith arguments with me and was more preoccupied with winning the argument rather than actually trying to solve my alignment. His interactions with Looker were also highly suspect, he seemed frazzled over some slight grilling and I just got bad vibes from it.

Gamma/Looker- Just as I was about to start re-evaluating Gamma, he replaced out, so that sucks. Looker's entrance is

fine

, but again, the interactions with Datisi gave me bad vibes. I strongly believe there's at least one scum between the two of them.

Dorsey- Basically just Gera but scummier. His reactions to pressure really make me want to scum lock him, it's that bad.

SCUM

Salsa- I've made my case for Salsa for awhile now, and I don't understand the hesitance to put real pressure here or why some people are even town reading her. There's nothing more to say that I haven't already said.

Are the bottom four of my list my hero solve? Eh, probably not, it's still too early to lock my reads in. I don't think a Salsa lim/pressure wagon is happening right now though, so my vote's between Dorsey and T3 as the leading wagons. Dorsey makes more sense with my reads, but Datisi is also voting him and it gives me pause. My top town reads are also on opposing wagons, so it's hard to read the better choice here based off of who's currently voting. So I guess for now I'll just go off of my own read.

VOTE: Dorsey

It is not a bad post. And this post is important. this is Three's position, readlist.

Im lazy to read and quote more (I skip a lot of your talking with datisi and sely, for example, i cannot see that as productive enough).

the problem is that our view is very different.
somebody of us is mistaking if we are both townies

though i decided to build my game in other way for now.
maybe i understood some things right and i cannot tell you the whole info now.
maybe i am mistaking, it is also possible.

the example how i was protecting Three, before he decided to vote me and to claim, trying to elim me instead of himself

[Enchant]

Wiki counter claimed jail keeper.

I think he reclaimed after but i am not sure i want answer directly.

[Wiki]

Wait did Wiki claim Jailkeeped killed original and then reclaimed townie?

yeah that was bad
but he put us in situation where i should be elimed instead of him, i was thinking he is fakeclaiming.
he claimed vt before that, he wasn't careful for pr, he tried to elim me (his town lean) instead of himself on e-2, than he claimed on e-1

[Wiki]

he had 5-6 votes, i had 3 votes, others had less votes, 1 day left for the end of the day1, only sely and I were unvoting in the end, almost everybody lurked away, not changing their votes during all claims for about 12 hours, and after everything we put our votes back on him

i think i was good before his vote in me, i was planning all possible options if he green or red. then it changed in really bad situation, when he attacked me on e-2 and claimed on e-1. only then i remembered he had huge towny paranoia about me, because he was thinking about a traitor, i told him not to think about it so early, but it didnt help. i wasnt 100% sure he is town.

i also thought if he is red, then i can be killed in night as JK. but...

[Enchant]

Don't even do that in future as town (regardless of your alignment here). It's horrible misplay, because mafia could just nightkill him and thus atleast waste kill (and they want Jailkeeper dead, because he can shutdown kills). Killing PR is mafia job, not ours.

Now if we skipped coaching, what you now suggest?

[Wiki]

i claimed after him, not before
he did it not to die, i did the same thing because he had lost my trust

[Enchant]

i claimed after him, not before
he did it not to die, i did the same thing because he had lost my trust

Yeah i saw this thing.

What you suggest now? What information it gived and was it worth to survive for you?

[Wiki]

Now if we skipped coaching, what you now suggest?

to find scums
among the lurkers during claimings
among people who voted three (not all mafia here, but smb for sure)

my conclusion before our fight in the end was: if he flips green, scums are t3,datisi,a50,...x.... im not sure. but i thought about that a lot. i looked on all positions of players, who is playing with whom against whom and why, i had lots of good reasons. i had many reasons why three is town, but most active players were voting him, nobody listened to me. i think i still have good reasons about townie points to the others at least.

ok now i need to go sleep

[Wiki]

Wiki, (t3,datisi,...)
Andre, (t3...)
Ico, (t3,three,dorsey,looker). Town Datisi,Dwlee.
Sely, (t3...). Town Looker.
Three, (datisi,dorsey,salsa,looker)
Dorsey, (datisi)
a50, (gera,dorsey,wiki,t3)
Salsa, (three,dorsey,wiki,looker). Town Dwlee,Datisi.
GammaLooker, (gera? datisi...). Town Salsa?
Dwlee, (gera,salsa...dorsey...)
Gera, (salsa,wiki?)
T3. (Three, dorsey... salsa?no? A50?no!)
Datisi, (three... a50? dorsey?). Town Ico,Dwlee.

if u need, this is the list:

a player (his scums). +interesting solid townies for him.

u can use it.
this is not full picture. i didnt mention a lot. for example almost everyone were playing with andre. and this was before andre changed his mind about tr/three and voted three after the others
this is in an order - from townies for me to scums for me. as you can see, i put high people who sred t3 and lower who sred three.
and i changed this sometime, this was almost the latest version.

[Enchant]

UNVOTE:

It's not even hilarious.

[T3]

Enchant’s progression on wiki is kinda weird