Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[MafMen]

mind you greeting is off in a world of their own

[igorsprite]

[Micc]

Votecount 1.07

Thynhith (3) -

implosion, frogsfrogs, catboi

Greeting (2) -

Val89, igorsprite

Val89 (1) -

Greeting

igorsprite (1) -

Thynhith

Not Voting (2) -

pseudoAristotle, MafMen

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to eliminate.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2021-11-05 22:05:00).

[Val89]

Yeah, I agree, but all the takes he gives that make me go "What the fuck?"; you seem to end up defending or complaining about semantics or whatever.

I wonder if there is some of sort of comprehension issue between the two of us and we are debating two different issues without realising.

[Greeting]

I’m pretty confident in my stance. MafMen is pretty confident in their stance. Val89 is pretty confident in their stance.

If the two of you are town and we all stay adamant, in combination with a claimed Tracker, then this game is lost and tbf we deserve it.

[implosion]

I wonder if there is some of sort of comprehension issue between the two of us and we are debating two different issues without realising.

Congratulations, you just described the entire second half of this game so far.

[MafMen]

Yeah, I agree, but all the takes he gives that make me go "What the fuck?"; you seem to end up defending or complaining about semantics or whatever.

I wonder if there is some of sort of comprehension issue between the two of us and we are debating two different issues without realising.

honestly i wouldnt be surprised LOL
i havent agreed with (no offense greeting) any of his takes, from what i understood the difference in opinion is whether or not they are towny or scummy for them

[Val89]

Problem is, I'm not entirely sure what MafMens' stance actually

is

at present.

A claimed tracker at this stage is far from ideal, but if you are town, and right not I think that's such a huge ask for me to beleive, you running around basically rolecoping yourself for scum, and throwing around such wild and anti-town plays with every other breath isn't helping very much, is it?

[frogsfrogs]

Sorry, but that's bullshit. It's basically the only defense that would fly.

You are trying to tell me if you are scum, you would consider shooting a claimed VT with 2 PRs outstanding, unless you thought there was a chance they were lying?

there is a good chance that any mafia in a game decides to shoot a townread player instead of doing a potentially low reward act of pr hunting
theres also shit like fearkilling

Can some other people weigh in here, please, because I am starting to doubt my reality.

Are these two talking out their arses, or have I taken a blow to the head or something?

Yeah no, sorry MafMen, you're misreading Val's argument here I think. It's not "does a VT claim survive until late game", it's "if you are still around in late game as scum, how do you defend yourself?" He's saying claiming VT early prepares a narrative. That's what I'm reading, at least.

[MafMen]

was this so called wild and antitown play me disagreeing with your takes on greeting?
my only stance ive ever had throughout this entire argument is that your takes on greeting are completely ass backwards and downright wrong

Sorry, but that's bullshit. It's basically the only defense that would fly.

You are trying to tell me if you are scum, you would consider shooting a claimed VT with 2 PRs outstanding, unless you thought there was a chance they were lying?

there is a good chance that any mafia in a game decides to shoot a townread player instead of doing a potentially low reward act of pr hunting
theres also shit like fearkilling

Can some other people weigh in here, please, because I am starting to doubt my reality.

Are these two talking out their arses, or have I taken a blow to the head or something?

Yeah no, sorry MafMen, you're misreading Val's argument here I think. It's not "does a VT claim survive until late game", it's "if you are still around in late game as scum, how do you defend yourself?" He's saying claiming VT early prepares a narrative. That's what I'm reading, at least.

yes and im saying that defense will never work because its completely unbelievable

[Val89]

Maybe it would be completely unbelievable to you, perhaps, but it only takes a slot or two to buy it - and it's much better than having NO excuse, right?

[frogsfrogs]

I absolutely cannot see why Val would be scum and have posted the way/what he has so far. That sus from Greeting is my largest point of confusion with him, so yes, I'd really like for him to elaborate on the read, too.

Greeting, will you explain your current stance on Val more than in 225?

[Val89]

was this so called wild and antitown play me disagreeing with your takes on greeting?

I wasn't refering to you, I was replying to Greeting there. Sorry for not making it clear.

If the two of you are town and we all stay adamant, in combination with a claimed Tracker, then this game is lost and tbf we deserve it.

"A claimed tracker at this stage is far from ideal, but if you (Greeting) are town, and right now I think that's such a huge ask for me to beleive, you (Greeting) running around basically rolecoping yourself for scum, and throwing around such wild and anti-town plays with every other breath isn't helping very much, is it?"

Better?

[MafMen]

Maybe it would be completely unbelievable to you, perhaps, but it only takes a slot or two to buy it - and it's much better than having NO excuse, right?

and thats where my problems lies
this level of theory crafting for scum!greeting to have employed a strategy thats only better than having nothing is nonsense
not to mention it is a huggeeeeeeeeee ass stretch

[MafMen]

I wasn't refering to you, I was replying to Greeting there. Sorry for not making it clear.

ah my bad thought that bottom part was directed at me since the top had my name in it lol

[Val89]

Maybe it would be completely unbelievable to you, perhaps, but it only takes a slot or two to buy it - and it's much better than having NO excuse, right?

and thats where my problems lies
this level of theory crafting for scum!greeting to have employed a strategy thats only better than having nothing is nonsense
not to mention it is a huggeeeeeeeeee ass stretch

Nah, sorry, this shouldn;t be contraversial at all. I don't even know

what

, nevermind why we are debating any more.

It's not "does a VT claim survive until late game", it's "if you are still around in late game as scum, how do you defend yourself?" He's saying claiming VT early prepares a narrative. That's what I'm reading, at least.

It's clear other slots are getting it, so I am just going to chalk this up to you misunderstanding what I've driving at.

[MafMen]

now is that directed at me or frogs lol? if its me then i have absolutely understood
scum!greeting claims vt early to set up the defense of "im alive because mafia is pr hunting" if they are still around in the lategame
and like i said that is a huge stretch

[Val89]

Then, no, MafMen, clearly you haven't understood. I'm not saying that's why scum!greeting has claimed VT.

Alright, let's try it this way. What good (for town) has Greeting claiming VT at this point done, in your eyes?

[MafMen]

For the newer players amongst us, if this wasn't clear - apart from the obvious fact that it reduces the townspace for our PRs to hide amogst; the other reason claiming or hinting you are a VT this early is scummy as hell is because it sets up the excuse as to why a scum player doesn't die at night.

In normal circumstances, if a player you might expect mafia to eliminate; because they are widely townread, for example, is constantly surviving the NK, you might start to draw conclusions from that, and scum want to have something in place to point to to explain why they are still alive on D4 or whatever. In this case, that will be "well, they want to take out the PRs, obviously, so why would they shoot me?" rather than the actual reason being mafia obvious don't NK mafia.

tf is this then if not exactly what i just said
anyway the claim does nothing for town

[MafMen]

which is why i said i dont agree with anything theyve done, just how youve interpreted them

[Val89]

anyway the claim does nothing for town

OK. If you mean nothing positive for town, I agree. Progress.

What does it do for scum?

[MafMen]

anyway the claim does nothing for town

OK. If you mean nothing positive for town, I agree. Progress.

What does it do for scum?

it does what you proposed yes
but crazy thought, what about every other reality where greeting is just town making a blunder?

[igorsprite]

VOTE: Thynhith

[Val89]

it does what you proposed yes

Then what the fuck are we doing arguing here, and why the hell is it taking us doing it in babysteps like this to come to a common understanding?

Is this part 2 of you calling me "gross and disingenous" because it turns out you didn't like the phrase I used to describe it?

but crazy thought, what about every other reality where greeting is just town making a blunder?

That isn't what you've been saying all this time, is? If you had said "Yeah, Val is right, Greeting is hurting town's prospects here, but I just think he is silly town, not scum", we would have been having a totally different conversation this entire time.

If a player is acting in a way that hurts town and benefits scum, particulary a player who tells us the've played about 30 mafia games, and still doesn't recognise what they are doing is anti-town; then I think it's incumbent on YOU, MafMen, to tell the rest of the field why it's more likely that player is town, and the player pointing it out is scum; as you originally infered when you voted me for doing so.

[frogsfrogs]

That's E-1. Thynhith is still gone and might be for another day or so. I absolutely think this is where we should be voting, with Greeting creeping up into being my second choice if he won't / can't sufficiently explain his vote being where it is right now.