Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[Val89]

I would like to hear from Catboi re: my 232 before the day ends at the very least, please.

This should go without saying, but just in case, please don't go hammering here before Thyn returns to the thread. 4 days is plenty, and we still have slots with only a handful of posts to work with.

[MafMen]

That isn't what you've been saying all this time, is? If you had said "Yeah, Val is right, Greeting is hurting town's prospects here, but I just think he is silly town, not scum", we would have been having a totally different conversation this entire time.

If a player is acting in a way that hurts town and benefits scum, particulary a player who tells us the've played about 30 mafia games, and still doesn't recognise what they are doing is anti-town; then I think it's incumbent on YOU, MafMen, to tell the rest of the field why it's more likely that player is town, and the player pointing it out is scum; as you originally infered when you voted me for doing so.

that is literally exactly what ive been doing jesus christ

[Val89]

That's funny, because I've been labouring all this time under the impression you've spent pages arguing that what Greeting has been doing is perfectly acceptable, and that I'm running some sort of gross and disingenuous mafia scam for taking issue with it.

Let's try and back up a little then.

Are you townreading Greeting, and if so, what makes you think he is more likley to town who is torpeding our chances over just actually being scum?

Why did you vote me, and why have you now unvoted?

I think I find it a lot easier to correctly sort your slot if I actually know what your positions actually are, and if any progression there looks genuine. I want to make sure I have at least a half decent handle on this because like I said before, I think you and Thynhith aren't scum together and Thyn is currently liable to be today's lim.

[catboi]

I don't think there is much room for ambiguity on this one - either you are with MafMen and Greeting, and think it's perfectly fine to speculate on the setup and pseudoclaim VT, as long as it can be handwaved way as possibly being a bit of WIFOM, or you understand why it isn't.

Disingenuous framing, bad look for you. People can do things that are not necessarily good play while still being town-aligned. This is a fairly basic lesson most people figure out very quickly.

I would have thought since you played in 2073, and you probably remember the eventual alignment of the slot that started that business (although, I do understand if you would also prefer to forget that game ever took place!) you would understand why I have taken an issue with it here.

You bringing up that game is predictable and rote, and does not sway my view whatsoever. I do not believe what Greeting said was done with the intention of getting anyone to out their roles.

As it happpens, Greeting has now explicitly claimed VT.

@Catboi: Do you think a) that's a good play, and b) it's alignment-indicative in any way, and why?

Without intent to hammer, probably not a good play, but probably >rand town as frustrated early VT claims tend to go (although also not as meaningful with a tracker claimed in the open)

[catboi]

That's funny, because I've been labouring all this time under the impression you've spent pages arguing that what Greeting has been doing is perfectly acceptable, and that I'm running some sort of gross and disingenuous mafia scam for taking issue with it.

You're making the leap from framing an action as "unacceptable" to somehow insisting this action is likely to be coming from a member of the mafia. There's an obvious lack of logical connection here and the fact that you're still hung up on that point and seemingly unable to acknowledge this is either a sign of unearthly stubbornness (not out of the question) or just willful bad faith

[catboi]

I know this is activity-based meta, but I see frogsfrogs online most of the time I'm around and they have almost three times less posts than I do. They aren't posting in any other games. What's up with that? In 221, Val89 strongly townread frogs, without really saying why.

Maybe I'm being paranoid about this, but I think it should be pointed out.

Well, if we are going to open that door; I've noticed that both you and MafMen are routinely hiding your online status.

Given that it appears activity-based meta is something you think worth pointing out, are you hoping to hide something that way?

This, also, is just a fairly poor reaction from val here - the immediate "oh yeah well what about YOU" attempted reversal on Greeting looks like like if anything he's flustered at Greeting making such a read - you might find it distasteful but I rarely see scum make these sort of online status based reads that Greeting did here (additionally, breaking free of the argument to try to rope in frogsfrogs is something I rarely see scum do in this situation although that's a weaker read). I struggle to see the response here as coming from a town mindset.

[catboi]

Problem is, I'm not entirely sure what MafMens' stance actually

is

at present.

A claimed tracker at this stage is far from ideal, but if you are town, and right not I think that's such a huge ask for me to beleive, you running around basically rolecoping yourself for scum, and throwing around such wild and anti-town plays with every other breath isn't helping very much, is it?

Every post from Val is just this. Absurdly disingenuous. The strongest argument he can make is that such plays aren't "helping very much". The operative word here is "helping". As though town are always "helpful". As though scum don't have strong incentive to appear "helpful", as though such a thing is a significant risk for scum. As if trying to sort people along a helpful/unhelpful axis will lead to any sort of result at all. But this is the whole of what val's reasoning has been and he never explains why that makes someone scum.

He's a bloviator so I think people just get blown away by the volume of words to ignore how thin and repetitive the actual reasoning is.

[Val89]

Without intent to hammer, probably not a good play, but probably >rand town as frustrated early VT claims tend to go (although also not as meaningful with a tracker claimed in the open)

Pardon? Why is is

less

meaningful with a tracker claim already?

[catboi]

Anyway, significant chance Val and Thyn were just distancing from each other but Thyn has very likely flaked (he's past the prod timer already). If he were here I'd have preferred some sort of consolidation/intent to hammer.

[catboi]

Without intent to hammer, probably not a good play, but probably >rand town as frustrated early VT claims tend to go (although also not as meaningful with a tracker claimed in the open)

Pardon? Why is is

less

meaningful with a tracker claim already?

VT claim less meaningful with a tracker claim because one PR is outed, obviously, less claim space for mafia to hide in. Still lean that the

way

Greeting did it is probably more town-leaning than not although he's not in the top of my reads.

[catboi]

Looks like Thynhith said he was going to have decreased activity but isn't familiar enough with the forum to declare V/LA. Unfortunate.

[MafMen]

That's funny, because I've been labouring all this time under the impression you've spent pages arguing that what Greeting has been doing is perfectly acceptable, and that I'm running some sort of gross and disingenuous mafia scam for taking issue with it.

Let's try and back up a little then.

Are you townreading Greeting, and if so, what makes you think he is more likley to town who is torpeding our chances over just actually being scum?

Why did you vote me, and why have you now unvoted?

I think I find it a lot easier to correctly sort your slot if I actually know what your positions actually are, and if any progression there looks genuine. I want to make sure I have at least a half decent handle on this because like I said before, I think you and Thynhith aren't scum together and Thyn is currently liable to be today's lim.

the issue came with you misrepresenting greeting, which is why i initially placed the vote because i thought it was fake asf
i realized i pretty much agreed with you on what theyre doing is harmful after the whole "ill self hammer" shenanigan and them outright claiming vt thus i unvoted

[MafMen]

also why is he more likely to be scum?
while irrational his thought process is genuine

[catboi]

To be blunt, if Thynhith is scum I think it clears implosion and MafMen (but of when are in the individually pretty town but not full trust category ATM), and I think pseudoaristotle has been towny despite an overall lack of content. That leaves not much room.

Val made some comments throwing shade at Thyn for reasons that I think I far more substantial than anything he's thrown at Greeting, but continues his tunnel toward Greeting while only slapping Thyn with a scumlean and not much else. Thyn comes in with a "I would advise everyone to look at Val/Greeting more carefully" and an fos on Val but is mainly content to point to a past game and let other people do the legwork, he also avoids actually moving his vote here.


It's possible of course that I'm just misreading Greeting in this but I think he comes off significantly better in this argument but if Thyn is scum it doesn't really matter, they can both fit snugly in the POE.

[Val89]

the issue came with you misrepresenting greeting, which is why i initially placed the vote because i thought it was fake asf
i realized i pretty much agreed with you on what theyre doing is harmful after the whole "ill self hammer" shenanigan and them outright claiming vt thus i unvoted

But, if you pretty much agree with me that what theyre doing is harmful, WHY was it a misrepresention to point that out at the start?

Am I right in thinking that the actual problem is here is that you agree that is was harmful, but you thought it wasn't alignment-indicative; and thus me pushing it made me scum, but you've since changed your mind on that score?

I understand the position catboi is taking, at least, that he thinks Greeting is making bad town plays, but isn't scum, and that me thinking the opposite makes me scum; and that if Thyn is scum, then I am his partner busing him. That might be total crap, but it's the sort of thing that everyone can understand what position is being taken, and will start to resolve with a flip or two.

If you are on the same page as catboi, then at least there is a logical, understanable stance we can work from, but saying I was misrepresenting the situation, but you agree with me, is just ???

[MafMen]

set up speculation is a scumtell
greeting was not speculating on our setup
ergo i found you pushing that narrative wolfy
and i now understand you just have a flawed view of what setup speculation is

otherwise yeah i agree with you that greeting has done harmful things however he isnt scum for doing them
town is just as capable of doing harmful things as scum are

[Val89]

OK, I think I get it now. You take the phrase "setup speculation" to mean something different, and you thought I was using the phrase deliberately incorrectly, and that made me scum; but you've since changed your mind. Greeting is also town playing badly, not scum. Is that right?

If so, where do you think we ought be looking now?

[MafMen]

yup thats exactly it but to clarify, just because ive changed my mind on one point doesnt mean i view you as town

im currently looking at two of (you, frogs, implosion, thynhith) with one probably in you/thyn as the short interaction two had against eachother was too bizarre to say it was tvt

[MafMen]

I really thought Greeting and Val were both town arguing from different experience but this has absolutely spiraled now. :S

I guess I'd prefer to be talking about Val's new info from 180 re: Thynhith. I think it has some merit. The mentioned posts seemed totally town lean to me, but with greater context putting some doubt on them I see not much else I like?

VOTE: Thynhith

Thread has really ballooned quickly. Not surprised to see that with Val in the game. Focusing on me atp would be derailing town. I would advise everyone to look at Val/Greeting more carefully. There's definitely something there that irks me, and I'll get a reread on the day as soon as I can.
One interesting thing of note is that scum!Val in our last game had a similar argument with Margot. Won't regale you with all the details, but he'll definitely try his best to come away looking townier. In fact his insistence on getting stuck on a seemingly less important point could be a red flag in itself, to trip up town and control the thread.

Consider this a notice for decreased activity for a few days. Have a bunch of irl stuff coming up, so expect me to be dipping out.

this post was disgusting enough to make me drop my thynhith townlean
telling people not to focus on him and only on the argument between you and greeting when there was absolutely no pressure on him iirc is suspect
reeks of omgus as well

[Val89]

Why frogs and implosion? Those are both townreads to me, or is that why?

How are you feeling about catboi, presently?

[Thynhith]

Haven't flaked yet. Whoppee, I dip out for a few days and end up on E-1. Oh well. Will do my best to catch up now

[Thynhith]

I really thought Greeting and Val were both town arguing from different experience but this has absolutely spiraled now. :S

I guess I'd prefer to be talking about Val's new info from 180 re: Thynhith. I think it has some merit. The mentioned posts seemed totally town lean to me, but with greater context putting some doubt on them I see not much else I like?

VOTE: Thynhith

Thread has really ballooned quickly. Not surprised to see that with Val in the game. Focusing on me atp would be derailing town. I would advise everyone to look at Val/Greeting more carefully. There's definitely something there that irks me, and I'll get a reread on the day as soon as I can.
One interesting thing of note is that scum!Val in our last game had a similar argument with Margot. Won't regale you with all the details, but he'll definitely try his best to come away looking townier. In fact his insistence on getting stuck on a seemingly less important point could be a red flag in itself, to trip up town and control the thread.

Consider this a notice for decreased activity for a few days. Have a bunch of irl stuff coming up, so expect me to be dipping out.

To start off with I see some people hating this post. I was writing here in a rush, and wanted to get my first impressions of the Val/Greeting exchange out, before I had to v/la for a few days. Hence the post looking general, was hoping someone might look into my points, and check how scum!Val was arguing with Margot in our last game. Evidently no one did, and took the opportunity to scumread me instead.
@Maf I was asking people not to focus on me when they had a potentially telling interaction by Val. There was nothing on me then, why should I stress out?

I'm certainly not comfortable with my wagon, and it seems this is the only post for it.

[frogsfrogs]

Implosion mentions an entirely different post in his vote explain and I responded to Greeting more recently with a wider argument. I do not consider that to be the only post we're voting you up on.

[Thynhith]

I absolutely cannot see why Val would be scum and have posted the way/what he has so far. That sus from Greeting is my largest point of confusion with him, so yes, I'd really like for him to elaborate on the read, too.

Curious, what makes you think that? It sounds like you've got Val townlocked

[Thynhith]

I really thought Greeting and Val were both town arguing from different experience but this has absolutely spiraled now. :S

I guess I'd prefer to be talking about Val's new info from 180 re: Thynhith. I think it has some merit. The mentioned posts seemed totally town lean to me, but with greater context putting some doubt on them I see not much else I like?

VOTE: Thynhith

If you mean this post, I'm a little surprised you're so swayed by Val talking out of his meta. All he said was I had a different vibe in this game, and something I did looks like something he did. Ugh, and before that you were townleaning me