Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[catboi]

I

believe

MafMen legitimately thinks my reaction was bad. I don't believe your read on me is genuine whatsoever or that you are approaching me in remotely good faith right now.

[catboi]

Why isn't this exactly how you'd react as scum to a tracker guilty that you know is fake?

How does "I'd have just nightkilled the other PR" imply you're town when no one died last night?

...Because I'D KNOW HE WAS BLUFFING?

And because I'd have nightkilled the other PR, rather than having a kill blocked???

We aren't in your head, we need another layer of explanation. What are you saying would have been different / better about your reaction if you were hypothetically scum and Igor claims to have seen you visit?

Edit after seeing new posts pop up: Sorry yes, exactly what Implosion said. We just don't know what your full argument is. Also, I think trying to reverse card onto implosion for "not having scum hunted at all' is a rough sell for making yourself look townie D: Maybe you don't consider this pushes to be correct but they haven't

not

existed??

It's not about not existing, it's about whether implosion is actually trying to figure out whether people are town or scum, or just making up things to attack. The fact that he considers me to be an acceptable elimination based on weaksauce reasoning indicates he's just looking to flip me and is not actually trying to find mafia, because at a minimum I'd expect some deeper level of inquiry/reasoning here, and instead he's coasting on too-confident townreads and shallow POE. It's not genuine. There's no attempt to sort people.

[implosion]

Because I don't put myself into a fight with the tracker and flip out (which, always, always makes people conf-bias the shit out of the reaction) when it's clear their result isn't real? I'd just go "I ddidn't go anywhere, retract", etc. Being informed means there's no pressure from a test result and I think it's very clear I actually felt pressured there.

If the jailkeeper blocked the kill they'd have a soft guilty. Which also clearly hasn't happened. (actually, I probably roleblock the PR read and shoot igorsprite in that world, thinking of it, but regardless, the other PR is extremely obvious and it's clear mafia failed to take advantage of this)

I just don't know if I buy that. I think flipping out in anger at being fake-guiltied is something town-you could do (as evidenced by you claiming to have done it as town) and it's something that mafia-you would see an opportunity to emulate. Or alternatively it was a reaction based on a (justified) emotion of annoyance/anger, and that emotion would have existed whether you're town or scum, because you'd have known he was BSing either way.

I mean, I guess. This is just like, essentially hearsay-upon-hearsay though; to buy that you're town from this argument i'd have to buy that the other PR is as obvious as you say, AND that you and your scumbuddy were so confident in them that you'd be willing to block them over a claimed tracker, AND that you're right about who they are (I think I know who you're talking about but like I'm not 100% sure)... like it's just a very nontrivial situation. If I were scum with a roleblocker and a goon facing a claimed tracker and a person that I'm almost certain is the jailkeeper (but who is not claimed) I have no clue what I'd do. Hell,

you

have no clue what you'd do, evidenced by you changing your mind about what you'd have done in response to my questioning. It's a mechanically complex situation that you're trying to simplify into "if i were scum, i'd have just done X" and that just isn't how scum thinking about night actions... works.

[catboi]

Lol, okay.

[catboi]

I want a promise from everyone that after you flip me, implosion gets insta-voted tomorrow.

[implosion]

he's coasting on too-confident townreads and shallow POE

You're saying this to call me scum, but this is actually a way to describe my town playstyle that is a remarkable combination of accurate and uncharitable. Falling into too-confident townreads that I fail to get myself out of is something that happens and that I sometimes shoot myself in the foot with, but I also ride those townreads to victory sometimes (I'd like to think more often than random but like, I'm not especially good at online mafia lol)

[catboi]

There is no way town is this far up their own ass, when called on his shallow reasoning he gets smug and dismissive, he knows he has the upper hand here, whatever. There's no way any of this treatment of me is remotely good faith and he is straining in the most tenuous way to shut down my objections rather than considering that this could be coming from town perspective.

WHEN I FLIP TOWN, YOU VOTE IMPLOSION 100%

[implosion]

i really do hope you're i'm right that you're not town if you're acting like this means anything in a newbie game. I'm not being smug or dismissive. I mean I guess I'm being dismissive in the sense that i am literally dismissing you're arguments because I disagree with them. I'm just not being persuaded.

[catboi]

he's coasting on too-confident townreads and shallow POE

You're saying this to call me scum, but this is actually a way to describe my town playstyle that is a remarkable combination of accurate and uncharitable. Falling into too-confident townreads that I fail to get myself out of is something that happens and that I sometimes shoot myself in the foot with, but I also ride those townreads to victory sometimes (I'd like to think more often than random but like, I'm not especially good at online mafia lol)

Not going to get into the self-deprecation (I know you were pretty good, although that was a long time ago) but am I supposed to believe you're not just imitating that here? That you're content to rest on evaluation you made midway into day 1? Nah, nah, nahhh.

[catboi]

i really do hope you're i'm right that you're not town if you're acting like this means anything in a newbie game. I'm not being smug or dismissive. I mean I guess I'm being dismissive in the sense that i am literally dismissing you're arguments because I disagree with them. I'm just not being persuaded.

I mean, of course you're not being persuaded, because you're scum and don't actually care about my alignment. THAT'S MY ENTIRE POINT.

[catboi]

could make a snide comment about the proofreading fail on that post being scum-indicative, but that's over the top and i don't actually believe that

[implosion]

Like, your first reaction to me indicating suspicion on you was to say "this is ass, do better" without offering any kind of alternative or any actual reasoning, when all game you've been saying you've found me generally reasonable and have indicated no suspicion of me whatsoever.

And when I indicate suspicion on you you more or less immediately jump at my throat after like three posts of calling my reasoning ass and seemingly expecting me, if town, to magically change my mind.

Like, wtf? How am I supposed to work with you if we're both town there?

[implosion]

I'm going to stop for now because I think this is plenty to look at for the rest of the player list and I don't think there's a need to bog things down further, and I want to see what others think of the last page.

[catboi]

Like, your first reaction to me indicating suspicion on you was to say "this is ass, do better" without offering any kind of alternative or any actual reasoning, when all game you've been saying you've found me generally reasonable and have indicated no suspicion of me whatsoever.

And when I indicate suspicion on you you more or less immediately jump at my throat after like three posts of calling my reasoning ass and seemingly expecting me, if town, to magically change my mind.

Like, wtf? How am I supposed to work with you if we're both town there?

Because while all game I've found you reasonable, your approach to me is anything but, your reasoning for voting me is

absolutely terrible

and

incredibly shallow

, and comes after having done basically ~no interaction with me or investigation of my posts, and I don't believe it comes in remotely good faith. I'd expect if there was

some

intention of solving me there would be more reasoning behind it, and you have none. Your whole push on me is too terrible to believe it comes from town.


How am I supposed to "work with you" when you come at me with absolutely terrible reasoning and shut down every explanation I have? You're trying to act like I'm being unreasonable here but you're the one who's determined to eliminate me regardless of anything I say.

[catboi]

You act as though "reasonable sum" isn't, like, an entirely common archetype. That, okay, I didn't suspect you until you started voting me and I OMGUSed (yes, I admit it!) But the thing is I can try to work out whether people's votes on me make sense or not, and I do not believe you vote and push me this way as town. That my read on you is entirely reactive doesn't make it

less valid

. Sometimes it's just not apparent who scum are until they're trying to kill you.

[catboi]

Actually, I'll just outright say it: implosion should know better than to scumread me here. Screw the self-deprecation.

He asks "how am I supposed to work with you", but his read on me

gives me nothing to work with

. The goal here is to paint me as unreasonable when in fact he is the one not trying to reason with me and is only concerned with flipping me. There was never any attempt to work with me on his part.

[igorsprite]

Ok but where is Greeting?

[igorsprite]

@implosion idk, i said that to instigate catboi because i think that he is scum and his reaction now just confirms that for me.

So, mind telling me why you thought I was scum in the first place?

I already said, it's the feeling u.u

[catboi]

@implosion idk, i said that to instigate catboi because i think that he is scum and his reaction now just confirms that for me.

So, mind telling me why you thought I was scum in the first place?

I already said, it's the feeling u.u

That doesn't explain anything.

[catboi]

What "feeling"? Give me some sort of words here, or even literally quote a post you found suspect.

[MafMen]

theres a 0.0000000000000000000000000000001% chance igors tracker claim is fake, meta doesnt matter when hes been uncc'd for like a week
ive never ever liked when people say "when i die go after (x) person next" as that's just a bunch of disingenuous nonsense that could easily be used to manipulate town into shifting the wagon off of them and onto the accuser
instead of defending yourself youre going on the offensive against implosion, as if rather than arguing the scumread against you, youre trying to appeal to the town instead and i wouldnt say that bodes well for your alignment
that could be a meta thing but i cba to look thru your games so if you say it is ill just trust your word, theres also the fact that i dont understand/share your viewpoint on implosions reasoning so i cant really empathize there

[MafMen]

he's coasting on too-confident townreads and shallow POE

You're saying this to call me scum, but this is actually a way to describe my town playstyle that is a remarkable combination of accurate and uncharitable. Falling into too-confident townreads that I fail to get myself out of is something that happens and that I sometimes shoot myself in the foot with, but I also ride those townreads to victory sometimes (I'd like to think more often than random but like, I'm not especially good at online mafia lol)

implosion taking his foot off the gas here to randomly defend himself from an off-hand comment of catbois doesnt look that good in all fairness

[MafMen]

@implosion idk, i said that to instigate catboi because i think that he is scum and his reaction now just confirms that for me.

So, mind telling me why you thought I was scum in the first place?

I already said, it's the feeling u.u

lol

[igorsprite]

For reference, this is the igorsprite scum game in question, with a link to the post where he fakes a dumbtell about not knowing how many mafia are in the game: https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/top ... 0750?n=186

The setup was NewD3, which is of course the same as this one. That's notable to me because he made this post in this game:

we have 2 scums, right?

Which could have been an attempt to replicate the cred he got for that game.

Hey that was not fake, i really didn't know how many scums were >:(

That was my first game and the first time that the mod modded a game and he forgot to say who was my scum partner, and i thought that i needed to find my scum partners by myself xD

[catboi]

theres a 0.0000000000000000000000000000001% chance igors tracker claim is fake, meta doesnt matter when hes been uncc'd for like a week

Setup Information

NewD3 (as designed by RadiantCowbells):

	A	B	C
Mafia	Mafia Roleblocker	Mafia Rolecop	Mafia Goon
Row 1	Town Cop and Town Doctor	Town Tracker and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Cop and Vanilla Townie
Row 2	Town Jailkeeper and Town Tracker	Town Jailkeeper and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Jailkeeper and Vanilla Townie
Row 3	Town Mason and Town Mason	Town Tracker and Town Doctor	Town Mason and Town Mason

Refer to the third column, setup C2: It's entirely possible that igor is a mafia goon fakeclaiming who got lucky that the setup is the one where a tracker is not directly CC'd by another power role. Him doing the "vote me I want to see who hops on routine" seemed maybe kind of town but I find the way he's acted to be incredibly suspicious.

I encountered almost this exact scenario in a prior newbie game and had to metaphorically scream my head off just to get it through to people that it was possible the tracker was fakeclaiming. People are so, so quick to accept any PR claim and it's incredibly hard for them to even consider the possibility of one being fake.