Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[catboi]

Then there is the shitpush on implosion. He wants us to buy that implosion is making a bad-faith, non-genueine push on

him

, while also making posts like this:

could make a snide comment about the proofreading fail on that post being scum-indicative, but that's over the top and i don't actually believe that

How else I am expected to take a post like that, other than "please give me towncred for not using something I don't actually think is NAI to push implosion, but I'm still going to point out the thing I think is NAI, and maybe someone else will think it's scum-indicative." That's one example. 484 is another. I think someone is making a bad-faith shitpush here, but it isn't implosion.

VOTE: Catboi

That post you quoted isn't even part of my actual reasoning for pushing implosion as scum, and I think that should be eminently clear if you're actually reading what I'm saying. 484 is an entirely fair criticism of implosion's push on me and you don't even bother trying to explain what's wrong with it (because there is no argument). I have made it very clear that I do not believe his vote on me here comes from a town thought process. You're not actually engaging with the substance of what I'm saying.

And again, you think I just slam back at the person who's mostly universally townread as scum? That trying to flip him with a "shitpush" is likely to succeed?

Please

. The idea is ludicrous.

[catboi]

I suspect Val is voting me mostly because I wounded his pride by suspecting him on day 1. I got caught up in a bad assumption and heavily disliked his logic for pushing Greeting as scum but my feeling over the night phase is it's more likely to be borne of stubborn egotism than scum motivating. *shrug*

[catboi]

...val. VAAAAAL.


Mind explaining THIS:

Spoiler:

- He's dumping this game again as VT for an even future scum game (worse than last time because of how last time went)
- This is that future game where he's scum (cashing in on the last game to take this town down)

Frankly, I agree in princible that claiming VT as early as this is an objectivley poor play as town; James obviously disagrees, but that's where I am at.

I don't see why claiming VT is good for scum though - In other words, I'm not sure; whether it's this game or a future one, how claiming VT helps a scum!James take down town. Nobody else is following his example, and a scum!James know he aint a town PR by definition.

Would you explain why you think an early VT claim as scum helps scum (I know why an early VT claim

as town

helps scum), if you think I've missed something?

Given you agree this was "objectively poor for town", then unless you can point to activity that is more objectively bad for town, my vote lands here.

That's fine. My point was that, although it's objectively anti-town, it looks to me to be just as anti-scum, too. My question to you was 'what advantage does scum gain by an scum making an early VT claim', and since your answer has been focus on about how we should be discouraging anti-town behavior and you don't want to move your vote until you see something else anti-town, I'll take it that you can't see the advantage for scum either.

CLSR has it right - I think it's anti-scum, in that it both attracts attention to the slot; and it basically locks at least one scum out of fake claiming a PR; and I would argue that is true whether it's double goon or not.

Yes, it's anti-town. Yes, that behavior should be discouraged, and has been. I think it's just as anti-scum though, and therefore I think we should be viewing anyone using this as the main or only justifaction for a wagon on James with a little bit of suspicion.

In here you have a previous game where you expressed belief that someone claiming VT early, while anti-town, is also lacking in scum motivation. And yet, in THIS game that was your justification for pushing Greeting as scum, talking about how claiming VT "isn't hekpful". How do you square these beliefs?

[igorsprite]

also those arent "slightly different circumstances," a guaranteed jailkeeper leaves a lot of room to fakeclaim rather than doing what scum!igor could do but nevertheless i get it

And I recognize that, I'm not advocating for voting igorsprite today. The circumstances of the claim would be fairly risky for mafia. But I don't want people shutting their brains off solely on the basis of a claim, which happens too often. If you look at igorsprite's posts after the claim, I think there's good reason to say he's suspect, if not outright scummy. Again, not saying you should flip him now but he should be given scrutiny.

so we don't need to discuss that today, i think that you are just saying that to put the town in doubt

[catboi]

also those arent "slightly different circumstances," a guaranteed jailkeeper leaves a lot of room to fakeclaim rather than doing what scum!igor could do but nevertheless i get it

And I recognize that, I'm not advocating for voting igorsprite today. The circumstances of the claim would be fairly risky for mafia. But I don't want people shutting their brains off solely on the basis of a claim, which happens too often. If you look at igorsprite's posts after the claim, I think there's good reason to say he's suspect, if not outright scummy. Again, not saying you should flip him now but he should be given scrutiny.

so we don't need to discuss that today, i think that you are just saying that to put the town in doubt

Yes, igor, I am very definitely trying to put people in doubt! That's the point! Do you think me putting doubt on you is at all useful if I'm going to flip red?

[igorsprite]

also those arent "slightly different circumstances," a guaranteed jailkeeper leaves a lot of room to fakeclaim rather than doing what scum!igor could do but nevertheless i get it

And I recognize that, I'm not advocating for voting igorsprite today. The circumstances of the claim would be fairly risky for mafia. But I don't want people shutting their brains off solely on the basis of a claim, which happens too often. If you look at igorsprite's posts after the claim, I think there's good reason to say he's suspect, if not outright scummy. Again, not saying you should flip him now but he should be given scrutiny.

so we don't need to discuss that today, i think that you are just saying that to put the town in doubt

Yes, igor, I am very definitely trying to put people in doubt! That's the point! Do you think me putting doubt on you is at all useful if I'm going to flip red?

it's useful because you are scum and this doubt is keeping you alive

[catboi]

Is it, though? MafMen unvoted me but I didn't really expect that as a consequence, most folks are writing it off or doubling down. Voicing suspicion of you has been overall quite bad for my survival this game!

[Val89]

In here you have a previous game where you expressed belief that someone claiming VT early, while anti-town, is also lacking in scum motivation. And yet, in THIS game that was your justification for pushing Greeting as scum, talking about how claiming VT "isn't hekpful". How do you square these beliefs?

Yeah. That game is 2074. I (and you) saw the scum utility I didn't see at that point in 2076.

I wasn't pushing Greeting for claiming VT. I've been very clear my problem with him was the fact that it could well induce other slots to give clues they were VT and eliminate themselves from the PR pool, something that was escabated when he continously denied that it WAS anti-town and it was fine for them to do so. I saw the damage that could do in 2076.

2076 > 2074. Any further questions?

The desperation here is palpable.

[catboi]

I wasn't pushing Greeting for claiming VT.

No, you very obviously were.

A claimed tracker at this stage is far from ideal, but if you are town, and right not I think that's such a huge ask for me to beleive, you running around basically rolecoping yourself for scum, and throwing around such wild and anti-town plays with every other breath isn't helping very much, is it?

"running around basically rolecoping yourself for scum"

This was your criticism, directed at Greeting, who you were pushing for elimination. Don't lie.

This is not desperation, I am trying to make sense of your posting and determine whether you are doing this as town or scum.

[catboi]

As it stands, the dynamic between implosion and val where they've locktowned each other on a very flimsy basis is basically never T/T, I lean toward implosion being scum there and val being merely a stubborn egotist but I had to go digging in his past games to see if there was any discernible pattern in his townplay that might give me a sense of his alignment this game, and I happened upon those posts which are stating beliefs that seem to contradict how he's acted this game, so I had to question him on it.

[catboi]

What makes this difficult, frankly, is that I have a strong visceral dislike for the way Val posts that clearly clouds my judgment there.

[StrangeMatter]

At this point, catboi you're confirmation biasing yourself (or that's what it seems like you're doing) into believing Implosion is scum.

[Val89]

It might not be an exact science, but scum can certainly glean some clues, and those are clues they otherwise would not have if we just SHUT OUR DAMN MOUTHS.

The problem I have with you both, and it only increases the more you try and drive us down this rabbit hole and try and confuse what is a very clear cut issue, is that by openly discussing what you think should happen if it happens to be a JK, or if it happens to be a Doc, or a FN, is you run the risk of inducing other slots to ALSO do so

It's quite simple. People listen to you, and start running thier mouths, scum get info they wouldn't otherwise have and get to make a judgment call on who is WIFOMing and who isn't. They listen to me, they don't.

True, you "using logic" to "figure out the gamestate" (alongside the comments regaridng igors claim), and more importantly, opening the door for others to do so is a big part of it,

I am refering to Newbie 2073, which catboi also played in. There, someone fake-claimed Mason (in fact a TOWN made that fake claim, if you can beleive that), and just after I left the thread, 4 slots (including scum) managed to talk themselves out of the true PR pool by commenting on that claim and speculating on what it meant for the setup, even after I had warned them against it; and sure enough, one of our true PRs was quickly NKd from the remaining slots that night.

I have no desire to see that, or anything remotely like it, repeated.

If you "you guys", you mean "greeting", it's because he is hoping people will comment and make clear they beleive your claim, and thus immeadately ruling themselves out as that one town-aligned player that can immediately tell a tracker claim is fake, in 7 out of 9 combinations.

You just so happened to miss all of those posts while going through my ISO looking for 282?

I haven't even looked through the entire thing myself, but I think my point is sufficiently made already.

People don't say "I think Val is town", twice, while continuing to shade that town player unless you need other slots to wonder about the rest of said players reads after you flip red.

In other words, this lends further evidence to us looking at a catboi + greeting/mafmen scum team.

I have to step away again, but I'll go on record and say I have no problem with a catboi lim happening while I am away. This game is pretty much solved to my mind.

[catboi]

Hell, might as well go all in trying pull out what I can: Val, why the townread on implosion? You came into the game initally suspecting him but then reversed course and seem to have settled on him as a townread coinciding somewhere around where he declared you town, but have never elaborated on that at all. What's going into that read, exactly?

[Val89]

546.

Desperatation intensifies.

[catboi]

You just so happened to miss all of those posts while going through my ISO looking for 282?

I haven't even looked through the entire thing myself, but I think my point is sufficiently made already.

No, it's not really made any point at all, and everything I said day 1 still stands, you keep making arguments about how Greeting is anti-town (a notion I quite disagree with) but fail to bridge the gap to how he is scum for talking about the setup or claiming early. The past you would have agreed with me. I don't see how a game where T3 openly gamethrew changes the nature of what actions have town/scum motivation to them.

(for the record, I searched your ISO for that post I quoted in particular, because it stuck in my mind).

People don't say "I think Val is town", twice, while continuing to shade that town player unless you need other slots to wonder about the rest of said players reads after you flip red.

Val, I am trying to sort you. My guess is that you are town. I am not certain. I am trying to test your reasoning here. To see if it holds up. What good does shading you accomplish if I am flipping scum?

[StrangeMatter]

It might not be an exact science, but scum can certainly glean some clues, and those are clues they otherwise would not have if we just SHUT OUR DAMN MOUTHS.

The problem I have with you both, and it only increases the more you try and drive us down this rabbit hole and try and confuse what is a very clear cut issue, is that by openly discussing what you think should happen if it happens to be a JK, or if it happens to be a Doc, or a FN, is you run the risk of inducing other slots to ALSO do so

It's quite simple. People listen to you, and start running thier mouths, scum get info they wouldn't otherwise have and get to make a judgment call on who is WIFOMing and who isn't. They listen to me, they don't.

True, you "using logic" to "figure out the gamestate" (alongside the comments regaridng igors claim), and more importantly, opening the door for others to do so is a big part of it,

I am refering to Newbie 2073, which catboi also played in. There, someone fake-claimed Mason (in fact a TOWN made that fake claim, if you can beleive that), and just after I left the thread, 4 slots (including scum) managed to talk themselves out of the true PR pool by commenting on that claim and speculating on what it meant for the setup, even after I had warned them against it; and sure enough, one of our true PRs was quickly NKd from the remaining slots that night.

I have no desire to see that, or anything remotely like it, repeated.

If you "you guys", you mean "greeting", it's because he is hoping people will comment and make clear they beleive your claim, and thus immeadately ruling themselves out as that one town-aligned player that can immediately tell a tracker claim is fake, in 7 out of 9 combinations.

You just so happened to miss all of those posts while going through my ISO looking for 282?

I haven't even looked through the entire thing myself, but I think my point is sufficiently made already.

People don't say "I think Val is town", twice, while continuing to shade that town player unless you need other slots to wonder about the rest of said players reads after you flip red.

In other words, this lends further evidence to us looking at a catboi + greeting/mafmen scum team.

I have to step away again, but I'll go on record and say I have no problem with a catboi lim happening while I am away. This game is pretty much solved to my mind.

As much as I like the idea behind this being a solve (and feels like protown move), I want to take this with a grain of salt especially with your slot. You said something similar to this last time we played where you thought I was scum (was Town), and the game wasn’t over.

[Val89]

'Hell, might as well go all in on spreading as much shade as possible since I'm probably getting limmed here. UnCCd PR claims, slots I've said I think are town but I don't like, anyone is fair game'.

[catboi]

546.

Desperatation intensifies.

I could make a comparable list for implosion, too, but the same basic deal applies, although there is a more fundermental disagreement there in that he thinks Greeting is town.

That is not a reason. That is just saying "yes, I agree with implosion", there is no substance here at all.

I am not "desperate", I am

trying

to get you to explain yourself, if you are town then you are being profoundly unhelpful by adopting this attitude.

Like, look: I am not voting you. I have not even called you scum. I have even said I may have been wrong on you day 1! But I'm not sure, and to that end I am questioning you. Trying to shut this down is helpful to absolutely no one. It doesn't help me read you, it doesn't help anyone else read you.

[catboi]

At this point, catboi you're confirmation biasing yourself (or that's what it seems like you're doing) into believing Implosion is scum.

Maybe. Wouldn't be the first time. But I have to make a judgment call on whether the people pushing me are scum or town.

[catboi]

Like Val, you write a, essay every time you post, and the most you can come up with for implo-town is "I agree with what he's saying"?

Surely

you're capable of a little more depth than that?

[StrangeMatter]

At this point, catboi you're confirmation biasing yourself (or that's what it seems like you're doing) into believing Implosion is scum.

Maybe. Wouldn't be the first time. But I have to make a judgment call on whether the people pushing me are scum or town.

Noooo never say judgement call! You invoke

his

ability of being completely wrong!!!

[catboi]

What, specifically is he saying that you agree with? What makes these thoughts that scum wouldn't have? Use your words. Almost all your reads are pure reciprocity: those who support me are towny, those who are against me are scum. You've played enough you ought to know that's not how the game works. I'm trying to understand why you're certain this is a genuine connection and not just someone expressing, say, sensible surface level thoughts that are easy to agree with.

[catboi]

At this point, catboi you're confirmation biasing yourself (or that's what it seems like you're doing) into believing Implosion is scum.

Maybe. Wouldn't be the first time. But I have to make a judgment call on whether the people pushing me are scum or town.

Noooo never say judgement call! You invoke

his

ability of being completely wrong!!!

I don't understand what you mean by this.

[StrangeMatter]

At this point, catboi you're confirmation biasing yourself (or that's what it seems like you're doing) into believing Implosion is scum.

Maybe. Wouldn't be the first time. But I have to make a judgment call on whether the people pushing me are scum or town.

Noooo never say judgement call! You invoke

his

ability of being completely wrong!!!

I don't understand what you mean by this.

Inside joke.