Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[frogsfrogs]

I'd still like greeting to explain their catboi read as well as talk more about igor. He's been favorable towards them all game and only explained, once, that they think they're acting within meta from a previous town game they were in together. Is it really that strong of a read on just that basis??

[catboi]

I am not voting or pushing igorsprite as scum currently, no. I am not entirely confident in that read but his responses today (irl day, not game day), have overall felt believable

I wasn't asking you if you are pushing him as scum currently, I asked if you beleived his tracker claim. Given the fact you say you aren't entirely confident, I would like you to answer the question.

If Igor is scum, why no kill last night? Talk me through how that tallys with Igor being possibly scum for you.

I am not pushing igor as scum currently. I have no reason to discuss this. You are bogging this down with tired pedantry.

hypothetically

in an igor-scum world, the team had him perform the kill and the jailkeeper blocked him last night. It's not that simple. You have argued that the scumteam would not do this. In my view that's not super convincing, an inexperienced scumteam might not know they shouldn't have him make the kill, or maybe they were worried about the other member getting caught by the jailkeeper, there's a lot of potential explanations for night actions being handled differently, I doubt everyone subscribes to your view of the game.

ALL THAT BEING SAID, igorsprite is not currently part of my guess for the scumteam. I am no longer pushing igorsprite as scum. I have no desire to continue further with this line of speculation.

[igorsprite]

Has it occurred to you that scum might want to suck up to you because you're very easily manipulated? That you just treat anyone who takes your side as a friend? Like you'll ride in the car of any stranger who offers you candy?

so are you saying that val, frogsfrogs or implosion is manipulating me?

And, anyway, as a thought exercise: I get voted out today and flip town. How does that affect your read of Greeting?

i will trust him more, i guess

[catboi]

Has it occurred to you that scum might want to suck up to you because you're very easily manipulated? That you just treat anyone who takes your side as a friend? Like you'll ride in the car of any stranger who offers you candy?

so are you saying that val, frogsfrogs or implosion is manipulating me?

That's my current view of the game, yes.

[igorsprite]

Has it occurred to you that scum might want to suck up to you because you're very easily manipulated? That you just treat anyone who takes your side as a friend? Like you'll ride in the car of any stranger who offers you candy?

so are you saying that val, frogsfrogs or implosion is manipulating me?

That's my current view of the game, yes.

Are you manipulating me too?

[catboi]

Has it occurred to you that scum might want to suck up to you because you're very easily manipulated? That you just treat anyone who takes your side as a friend? Like you'll ride in the car of any stranger who offers you candy?

so are you saying that val, frogsfrogs or implosion is manipulating me?

That's my current view of the game, yes.

Are you manipulating me too?

I am attempting to persuade you to reconsider. I am trying to, as best as I can, go about the game rationally and evaluate players logically, making my thought process as apparent as possible. My hope is that even if I am voted out today that my reasoning is thorough enough that it provides a blueprint for town to win the game after I'm gone.


Where you draw the line between

persuasion

and

manipulation

is personal decision, and that's up to you. Ultimately I'd prefer to not get voted out by you but that would be true if I was mafia as well.

[Val89]

I am not pushing igor as scum currently. I have no reason to discuss this. You are bogging this down with tired pedantry.

No, don't sit there and tell me you have just

no idea

why keeping the mislim pool as wide as possible is +scum. I know full well why scum!catboi would want not to discuss this and try and paint this very applicable point - whether an uncc'dd town PR can be eliminated from the suspect pool on D2 after a no-kill, is what we are talking about here, remember - as "tired pedantry", but town!catboi has every reason to engage here and help settle minds on the issue.

hypothetically in an igor-scum world, the team had him perform the kill and the jailkeeper blocked him last night. It's not that simple.

I take that as a mistype, and you mean "It is that simple". I disagree, I don't think there is any scum team in the world that has Igor submit the kill, particularly when the very last thing that was posting in the thread before the lock was 367, which includes a very clear reminder that it is open to a hypothetical JK to save Igor, and it is obviously something that players are aware said hypothetical JK might chose to do, because Greeting decides to give the unsolicitated advice NOT to do so, there.

Even in the world where the scum team is so inexperianced they decide to let Igor submit the kill, because they don't realise there is a good chance Igor is going to be in jail or think that the theorectical scumpartner has been scumread to the degree they might end up in jail themselves and so Igor better do it, then that speaks a big clue as to who Igors partner could be, or more importantly, who they are unlikley to be; which doesn't really tally with the narrative that you are trying to push in the case that it IS a scum!Igor. Let me be more explicit: You think a {Igor, Implosion} team is possible, given that?

I think it's much more likley that scum were relying on the JK listening to Greeting and doing as he suggested, either because Greeting is scum, or because there were using the fact that advice had been given as a hint to infer what a JK might do there.

The thing is, I think you know all this already, and you don't want to discuss this because you know if you do, other players are going to realise the lengths you are going to to try hold that pool as wide as possible, and also realise that's exactly what scum are trying to do in this scenario.

[Val89]

I am trying to, as best as I can, go about the game rationally and evaluate players logically, making my thought process as apparent as possible. My hope is that even if I am voted out today that my reasoning is thorough enough that it provides a blueprint for town to win the game after I'm gone.

Also Catboi:

No. I won't discuss my reasoning for my lack of confidence on my Igor read. I'm trying to tell you that I am town, but if I do get flipped and I end up being town, you will just have to figure it out for yourself tomorrow because I'm not talking about it now.

See the problem here?

[catboi]

No, don't sit there and tell me you have just no idea why keeping the mislim pool as wide as possible is +scum. I know full well why scum!catboi would want not to discuss this and try and paint this very applicable point - whether an uncc'dd town PR can be eliminated from the suspect pool on D2 after a no-kill, is what we are talking about here, remember - as "tired pedantry", but town!catboi has every reason to engage here and help settle minds on the issue.

Val, buzz off. I don't think igorsprite is scum right now. In fact I currently think he said something recently I doubt he ever posts as scum. I have been making that clear in my posting. I am trying to work through and figure things out independently. You're trying to drag me into the muck over this nonsense arguing about a read I had on a player

I no longer actively suspect

rather allowing me to actually solve here. It's absurdly shitty to do, and accomplishes absolutely nothing given that you're already scumreading me and have made your points repeatedly, trying to hammer it in over and over is just argumentum ad nauseam.

I have expressed no desire to persuade you or work with you whatsoever, if you are town you are the sort of player whose mind is completely closed off and as such even attempting to talk to you is completely useless. There is nothing to be gained from me continuing to engage with you.

By and large I see no purpose for you to make these arguments other than to continue to discredit me by hyperfocusing on an argument you believe you can "win". It does not come across as being in good faith.

[catboi]

I am trying to, as best as I can, go about the game rationally and evaluate players logically, making my thought process as apparent as possible. My hope is that even if I am voted out today that my reasoning is thorough enough that it provides a blueprint for town to win the game after I'm gone.

Also Catboi:

No. I won't discuss my reasoning for my lack of confidence on my Igor read. I'm trying to tell you that I am town, but if I do get flipped and I end up being town, you will just have to figure it out for yourself tomorrow because I'm not talking about it now.

See the problem here?

What the fuck are you even talking about?

[catboi]

I am trying to solve. Val just wants to drag me into an argument over my read on igorsprite, which has been evolving, because he is treating this as a debate, where he is picking out one thing I said and trying to score "points" on it by attacking my reasoning. This leads to him polluting the thread trying to drown out me making actual reads.


I hope people will see what is happening, even if I have to get voted first.

[catboi]

I mean, in any sense, if I'm lockscum to val, why does he care about me mentioning I had doubt about igorsprite? Does he have any interest in my actual reasoning? Clearly not, because he's very convinced igorsprite is town.

Is he trying to convince me of his view of igorsprite? Again no, he thinks I'm scum and is trying to flip me.

So what's the purpose? He's trying to argue with me about a read

that I keep saying is not in my solve right now

. The only reason is he wants to "win" the argument from his fortress of unassailable logic, but I just...don't care. I have no reason to debate him over this, because it accomplishes nothing.

[catboi]

Praying Val is scum honestly because otherwise he's one of the most obnoxious players I've encountered in a decade

[StrangeMatter]

Can you post your current reads please, @Catboi?

[StrangeMatter]

And please do specify.

[Val89]

You aren't trying to solve - you are trying to keep the net as wide as possible. I'm not trying to engage in a debate I think I can "win", and the fact you think that's possiblity tells me you know your arguments and logic here aren't exactly sound.

This, whether or not you are prepared to justify reads that might result in elimating suspects from the pool, is a point that is clearly recognised as alignment indicative in both directions. Frogs was given townreads for the speed at which he was prepared to eliminate suspects from the pool 182 (and even if I disagree with the conclusion frogs came to there, I agree his williness to do so was deserving of towncred). In the other direction, you, yourself, sheeped a read on Thyn that was based on him keeping the pool of suspects as wide as possible (229).

You say you want to be read. You say that, even if you get limmed today, you want to leave your thoughts behind to help town find the real scum - but while you say it, you won't actually do it when that's put to the test and you are asked to justify a read that is clearly opposed to how most other slots are reading the evidence.

[catboi]

Can you post your current reads please, @Catboi?

town:
greeting, mafmen, igorsprite, strangematter


(big gap)

implosion


scum:
frogsfrogs, val89


I'm not totally sure on implosion yet. I feel like I'll be able to get a better handle on him from interacting with him. It's possible still he's just scum and I'm misreading one of the other people voting me out of annoyance but if I had to guess the team right now, that's where it's at.

I went into extensive detail on Greeting in my ISO of him, I doubt he's ever scum here.

MafMen is a combination of research on his old games and rereading his ISO in this one, am fairly confident on him being town this game, will try to go into detail later tonight when I have the time.

I know I said I wanted to wait for implo but in doing my own reading I started to feel pretty good about the read.

igorsprite is....I don't think he openly PR hunts in-thread as mafia

[catboi]

You aren't trying to solve - you are trying to keep the net as wide as possible.

No I'm not.

[catboi]

And please do specify.

Do you mean explain my reads? I went into a huge deep dive on Greeting not that long ago, IDK if you want me to link it again?

[StrangeMatter]

And please do specify.

Do you mean explain my reads? I went into a huge deep dive on Greeting not that long ago, IDK if you want me to link it again?

Well, it is the most important part of reads if you ask me (and the part I suck the most at), but there really isn't a point in explaining it again.

[frogsfrogs]

Is your assumption of Val and I as the scum team because you just find us individually scummy or do you think we've actually acted like we're in cahoots?

[frogsfrogs]

Agreed on the second part of 676. It seems unreasonable for a scum team with Igor in it to have risked their kill on the chance jk doesn't go for him, no matter what.

[catboi]

Is your assumption of Val and I as the scum team because you just find us individually scummy or do you think we've actually acted like we're in cahoots?

It is both because I find you to be acting like scum individually, where I have reasons to townread most of the other players, which I have discussed, and because I think you're compatible

[catboi]

And please do specify.

Do you mean explain my reads? I went into a huge deep dive on Greeting not that long ago, IDK if you want me to link it again?

Well, it is the most important part of reads if you ask me (and the part I suck the most at), but there really isn't a point in explaining it again.

No, no, it's fine, it's just that I've been spilling my guts in-thread for the past 2 days and I'm not sure if you missed it or not, I'm more than happy to link you things if you've missed them or explain my reads further if it's necessary.

[catboi]

Is your assumption of Val and I as the scum team because you just find us individually scummy or do you think we've actually acted like we're in cahoots?

It is both because I find you to be acting like scum individually, where I have reasons to townread most of the other players, which I have discussed, and because I think you're compatible

But, again, this is partly because I have an unaligned read on Val/implo based on val's opening the game with an attempted case of implosion, and that's really a soft read. I think it's possible I could be wrong on implosion because that's a weak guess I'm not at all confident in on an individual level, especially not without really rereading him.

I think implo is basically the only other possibility if I'm somehow wrong on you though.