Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[MafMen]

scum!you just as easily steers it onto town!frogs and still gets towncred because it looked like you were really working to solve
but this is arguing for no reason since i dont even scumread you in the first place haha

[catboi]

And it's not the selfvote itself, because I was initially calling BS, it's some of the other stuff Val said.

[MafMen]

for mafia the game gets a lot harder if they die here, because of PRs and the amount of people that would be cleared on a flip. town can still conceivably win no matter what if they get eliminated

I offered him a way out and he basically went, "no, screw you, I want to die"

And either he's way, way crazier than I'd ever imagine as scum

or he's just town

in all honesty bro this is weak

[MafMen]

i lean more to it being scum flail than anything else

[catboi]

it's very specific stuff that I probably can't sell you on, I just have a way of getting a feeling when I'm wrongly tunneling someone

[MafMen]

whos scum!frogs buddy then if you had to wager a guess?

[Greeting]

Why I never liked Val89 in this game?

It's obviously nothing personal, I've never had anything to do with this player whatsoever. This refers purely to their presence in N2082.

Ever since they entered the game in 132, they've been obnoxiously opinionated and despotic. It's almost as if there is no other way to play mafia than what they imagined inside of their head. Regardless of the content of his posts, this type of mindset is definitely anti-town in my opinion. It is a team game, not a single-player game and town needs to work with one another or die. I might have not been the easiest to cooperate with in this game, I admit. However, I have found myself unable to cooperate with this player in any way, even though I did try to make some concessions while tunnelling them later on. It seems to me that we both have irreconcilable differences.

That doesn't, however, answer the question of why I think he's scum.

It seems to me that in his early posts of 135 and 143 he was looking for an easy target to strike, first with implosion and then with myself. This isn't necessarily very telling of either alignment, I've played with players who start with a bang and go fishing for scumtells.

Then he goes with his stupid theory, which I understand, boils down to:
1) town (in this case, me) using information provided to figure out the setup of the game;
2) scum using these conclusions to go PR hunting.

I've already said what I think of this and it's not necessary for me to repeat myself. Nonetheless, this type of attitude, as exemplified in 156 is a despotic attempt to set the tone to the entire game. That's what started to alarm me about this slot first. My view on this differs very strongly, and I see the rejection of any potential conclusions as at least an oddity. This is partly explained by him later on. 187 is something that, if I were the devil's advocate, I would say somewhat justifies their actions. But it's too weak and this could very easily be spun in the opposite way. I hold Newbies and S-E's to different standards. Val may act in an obnoxious way, but he definitely knows how to play the game and learn from past games. So it is an act I think I can expect from a non-newbie player.

In 196, amongst others, intentionally or not, Val is being manipulative. I did notice the change in his gameplay and made a comment about how it sounds as if two different players are using one account. Here, he presents it as a fact and makes it into a dichotomy with the alternative of being scum. While it is true that I've mentioned both notions, I've never been very convinced of either and I put them out as ideas. Val89 is great at manipulating stuff people said into directions they see fit and I've been a victim of that.

Another anti-town act by them was heavily insinuating that I claimed VT early in the game, which was entirely his projection. With subsequent posts like 205 they basically forced me to explicitly do it.

It was entirely possible for me to speculate on the gameplay being a town PR.

Val apparently had a different idea about this and made this into a self-fulfilling prophecy, as it did, in fact narrow the pool of potential town PRs for the mafia with my hard claim.

In conclusion, Val89 looks like he's playing a game of his own.

His later posts clearly show him doing

something

but whatever it is that he's doing remains a mystery. There is a viable explanation as to what he's doing if he's scum - either he knows that his act in this game is up, and is trying to intimidate players into not voting him (which seems to have worked on implosion and even on catboi) or trying to clear his scumbuddy - who is probably frogsfrogs.

If Val89 flips scum, I will be willing to vote out frogsfrogs in the following day. Likewise, although there is no wagon on them, if frogsfrogs were to be eliminated and flip scum, I think Val89 would be the best way to go. Their dynamics clearly look like an alliance with one defending (220, 681) (or supporting 546) the other (248, 796 - read identical to that of Val, 828 - yes, this is a vote, but clearly requested by Val89).

[catboi]

whos scum!frogs buddy then if you had to wager a guess?

I'm not sure I want to push frogs anymore, either

[Micc]

Votecount 2.13

Val89 (3) -

Greeting, Val89, frogsfrogs

Greeting (1) -

MafMen

frogsfrogs (1) -

igorsprite

Not Voting (3) -

StrangeMatter, implosion, catboi

With 8 players alive it takes 5 votes to eliminate.

The deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2021-11-13 11:05:00).

[igorsprite]

Alright. I.. see that. And if, by surprise, someone I don't expect

(basically just Igor)

hammers here that's something to maybe examine. I want to flip catboi tomorrow for sure.

VOTE: Val89

VOTE: Val89

[catboi]

If I make the assumption that I have been aggressively tunneling town all day and scum have been content to hang back and let me go ballistic and do their work for them


Then I think the person fits that profile

VOTE: MafMen

And I think that is the person I am most likely to be misclearing

[catboi]

I am not going to hammer val now and if the day ends in no elim I don't care because we're on an even number of players, it's not going to lose an elim


Val should quit being petty and unvote himself, he can vote me again if he wants

[StrangeMatter]

I am not going to hammer val now and if the day ends in no elim I don't care because we're on an even number of players, it's not going to lose an elim


Val should quit being petty and unvote himself, he can vote me again if he wants

We should absolutely not be ending in a No Elim.

[igorsprite]

I am not going to hammer val now and if the day ends in no elim I don't care because we're on an even number of players, it's not going to lose an elim


Val should quit being petty and unvote himself, he can vote me again if he wants

We should absolutely not be ending in a No Elim.

true

[catboi]

If it goes to night with 8 alive and someone dies, we still have 7 alive tomorrow with 1 ML, we don't lose any chances, it's not the same as a no elim on day 1

It's not ideal in that I'd rather flip mafia to have a better chance of helpful night actions from PRs, but there is absolutely no reason for me to compromise on a wagon here


Of course, if you believe we should be eliminating someone no matter what, you have not really been helping that cause at all by not taking a stance on who to vote

[Greeting]

In order from the biggest townlean (up) to the biggest scumlean (down). Consider this also to be the list of whom I will be the most or least willing to vote out at this point of the game. I can settle to vote out the moderate scumleans and scumleans if my current choice (that is Val89) doesn't have a majority to be eliminated.

Townlean

Spoiler:

catboi

- Already spoke of them in 701. Has made an extraordinarily big (and good) effort to solve the game. I didn't notice much that would really make me interested in this slot. If catboi is scum then I congratulate him, because he successfully convinced me otherwise.

igorsprite

- Although his play is, in my opinion, really bad, unfortunately it would appear that he has some sort of town PR role. If it wasn't for that, I'd be voting them out right now.

Moderate townlean

Spoiler:

implosion

- Admittedly, this isn't a very strong read, but his actions in this game seem generally quite towny. His assessment of actions of other players, including myself (in posts such as 99, 130, Something which also tells me that implosion isn't scum is the way in he tried to mediate between me and Val89, whom, I believe, at the time he considered town. His interactions with catboi scream town speaking with town (as in 511).

Looking back in retrospect, I don't like his newer posts - most notably 775 and for now that is the major reason why implosion isn't a full townread. While this carefulness makes more sense when it's early Day Phase, we are slowly nearing towards the end - and town is very clearly and seems to be unwilling to go in a common direction. This post could be interpreted as being overly careful about looking bad if Val89 flips town.

While this is partly explained by them in 845 - I have one major remark implosion - there is less than 24h left and Val89 is, at the moment, the only viable option for elimination with three votes on that slot. So if you want to make a case for someone then you'd better hurry up.

Neutral

Spoiler:

MafMen

- I don't know what to make of them, really. The content of their posts seems genuine. The wording and the frequency remind me of another user - GrandpaMo, whom I know from N2078. GrandpaMo was a scum in that game and he managed to win it. That doesn't really let me move MafMen into my townreads. It's extremely subjective, but opinions are subjective by definition.

Their reads, from 730, are quite simplistic.

He seems to have conviction in whatever he's doing at the moment, but I must admit that his reasoning for voting me, in 730, is really weak (and I'm not saying this out of spite, as Val89 had voted me before and made much more valid points!) and my wagon seems a comfy place to stay at when I'm not in danger of being eliminated. I hope he either manages to put me at E-1 (with myself voting as promised) or keeps his promise from 861, otherwise this is slowly going into a moderate scumlean.

Moderate scumlean

Spoiler:

(two players in this category are of equal suspicion to me)

StrangeMatter

- Ever since entering the game they seem to be comfortably sitting on the fence, questioning and judging around, but without going into any concrete direction. Sure, it's okay if one doesn't like my self-hammer play (374, 385) I respect that. Sure, it's okay if one thinks I'm harming town (673). It feels to me like commenting on whatever I'm doing at the moment and questioning me is an easy way to get towncred without actually doing anything themselves. It is notable to me that they haven't really shared any strong read on anyone or even voted for anyone.

While StrangeMatter isn't exactly my first choice for an elimination vote, I can join that wagon.

frogsfrogs

- I think he could be playing Robin to Val's Batman in the scum team. I totally see them working together and opting for a cooperation tactic. Of course, my scum read on them is weaker and dependent on Val flipping scum, but I wouldn't be opposed to voting them out today either. I actually agree with catboi's assessment of them in 379.

Frogs actively participates a bit more in the game than StrangeMatter. Nonetheless, I find his stances rather vague and uninformative. He made a basic readslist in 421, but I fail to see (maybe frogs can point me to it) how it affected his later behavior in the game and especially his later vote for catboi in 578? What exactly has changed? If you think that me and catboi are aligned then why didn't you vote for me instead?

In post 796 you spoke of scum being amongst the three of me, catboi and MafMen - which is an opinion you repeated from Val89 (786). Why?

Furthermore, why are you voting for Val89 if you don't think he's scum? I understand that you are voting for them because they asked you to do so (824), but what makes you trust them so much?

Scumlean

Spoiler:

Val89

- explained in 881.

[Val89]

Val should quit being petty

Val is playing the best way, as he sees it, to achieve his wincon.

You might disagree, in this specific situation, or in general, but I assure you, you might find me obnoxious, or petty, or a selfish prick, or whatever other charges are being or will be leveled against me, playing to achieve my wincon based on what I believe the situation is, in a game where I can't trust anyone else's motives, is all I've ever done.

My elimination here is still, to my mind, the best chance towards a town victory. Scum LOVE having me around in a F3 or Mylo, as you catboi, and SM both have first hand experience with.

If you or anyone else disagrees, you can not vote me, and you can make that case to the others, but my vote will be staying where it is, and I'll continue to make the case that this is the best course of action.

[StrangeMatter]

That seals it. Greeting why are you mirroring people's reads and such?

[StrangeMatter]

Let's see.

You're saying exactly what Implosion has said about my slot, I see accounts of you right now making a read that's suspiciously similar to catboi's.

[StrangeMatter]

StrangeMatter I mostly am just confused why they're seemingly universally above null; it feels like they've played quite on the outskirts today, haven't really committed to any hard stances or... voted at all yet. If you're town then they could easily be scum coasting on a good gamestate. Or if you're scum they'd make sense as a partner.

It says something that I can look through their entire ISO, where they have tons of dialogue with you, and I actually have 0 clue what their read on you is right now or at basically any point (even their answer to my question asking about their reads specifically mentioning you doesn't answer it).

frogsfrogs I still need to do more work.

Please explain.

[catboi]

Val should quit being petty

Val is playing the best way, as he sees it, to achieve his wincon.

You might disagree, in this specific situation, or in general, but I assure you, you might find me obnoxious, or petty, or a selfish prick, or whatever other charges are being or will be leveled against me, playing to achieve my wincon based on what I believe the situation is, in a game where I can't trust anyone else's motives, is all I've ever done.

My elimination here is still, to my mind, the best chance towards a town victory. Scum LOVE having me around in a F3 or Mylo, as you catboi, and SM both have first hand experience with.

If you or anyone else disagrees, you can not vote me, and you can make that case to the others, but my vote will be staying where it is, and I'll continue to make the case that this is the best course of action.

hav you ever considered why that is

[Greeting]

That seals it. Greeting why are you mirroring people's reads and such?

Let's see.

You're saying exactly what Implosion has said about my slot, I see accounts of you right now making a read that's suspiciously similar to catboi's.

I didn’t look at their reads, I mostly focused on individual posts and interactions. But if they are alike, then it’s good as it strengthens my towntell of these two.

[catboi]

Val have you ever once considered the possibility that you may have an incorrect read

[Val89]

Yes.

[Greeting]

If we vote Val89 today:

- and he flips scum - I would be willing to go after frogsfrogs next;
- and he flips town - I think the scumteam is StrangeMatter and (probably) MafMen, would be willing to vote either.