Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[MafMen]

Hm, StrangeMatter’s reaction was too nervous for my liking.

Anyone willing to vote them out today?

nervous? in what way

[MafMen]

Ok, I think Strange is totally right about greeting seeming to parrot other people's reads of them,,, I think greeting's explanation for implosion is really weak and weird, even, too. You think that implosion is slightly less townie for taking action to back off on Val's train after he selfvoted? Scum would totally take advantage of the probably anti-town play there. It's like you would have preferred Val get quick hammered.

also are you seriously using another players meta to read me

[MafMen]

woops dont know why that was quoted the post was directed at greeting

[MafMen]

frogs are you able to make an opinion of your own
i have a townlean on you and i dont really want that to drop

[MafMen]

Greeting, look at MafMen trying to say you/Val was scum theater and tell me if you think that's a theory a townie really has?

do not treat that as the main point of my reads
i found them both individually scummy and so i looked for potentially fake interactions? is it confbias to actively look for something to support my theory? yes, and im conscious of this which is why im more hesitant to vote val

in all fairness greetings recent posts lead me to believe im an absolute clown but whatever

[StrangeMatter]

Actually I'm going to look into something. Maybe I was thinking of the wrong person since I clearly remember a Val89 and FrogFrogs scumteam being mentioned together.

[implosion]

I can probably do MafMen. I'm like, especially susceptible to confirmation bias this game for whatever reason and so me thinking his recent stuff from like a few days ago was townish combined with catboi meta-casing him as town was enough that I kind of ignored him. But under the theory that the last few days would be especially difficult for scum to effectively bluff their way through, he is a player who, well, was absent and wouldn't have had to do that.

StrangeMatter, I don't think Greeting is copying my reads, the point of reads is that if they're sensible people should be able to come to their own conclusions... and besides, the way I'm reading Greeting has little to do with Greeting's own reads.

[implosion]

frogs are you able to make an opinion of your own
i have a townlean on you and i dont really want that to drop

What do you mean by "i don't really want that to drop?" Like, you don't want frogs to be scum?

[implosion]

so lets make that 5 different wagons you participated on

This is a weird comment - why are you mentioning it? Do you think participating on 5 different wagons is scummy? I personally think there are almost no scum who would be brave enough to jump wagons that much in a newbie game, where that kind of thing is stereotyped as scummy.

[StrangeMatter]

No, I was just outright wrong on that end. It's still is extremely weird that part of it is very very close to what Implosion has said.

It really rubs me the wrong way that Greeting is suddenly advocating for everyone to focus on me and MafMen. I get that attention to a slot is almost always good, that's how you read someone, but this just comes off to me as odd and I can't exactly put my finger on it but it feels...desperate to get people to push either of our slots?

[MafMen]

if it was scummy i would have said it was
just i can tell why everyone who catboi set his sights on became frustrated

[MafMen]

frogs are you able to make an opinion of your own
i have a townlean on you and i dont really want that to drop

What do you mean by "i don't really want that to drop?" Like, you don't want frogs to be scum?

im arrogant and dont like being wrong LOL

[Greeting]

It really rubs me the wrong way that Greeting is suddenly advocating for everyone to focus on me and MafMen. I get that attention to a slot is almost always good, that's how you read someone, but this just comes off to me as odd and I can't exactly put my finger on it but it feels...desperate to get people to push either of our slots?

Let's take a look at my readslist, shall we?

I mentioned three people as moderate scumleans or scumleans: yourself, frogsfrogs and Val89. I also mentioned MafMen as a neutral read.

It is mathematically impossible for all four players to be scums. At least two of them are town (but I am about 80% confident that there are two scums amongst these four players). What I am trying to do is to find common ground amongst townies to vote out someone basing on my readslist. I ruled out Val89, because catboi, the player I trust the most at this point, thinks his reactions are townie. I am looking for a compromise and also, I have to admit that there is a plausible explanation for his actions if he is town. It's hard to swallow your pride but it's even harder to deal with a game lost because of having too much pride.

I'm obviously not going to suggest to frogsfrogs that he vote for himself. Which is why I asked them to look at you and MafMen. Similarly, if you are town, I am not asking you to consider voting yourself but to look at MafMen and frogs.

[StrangeMatter]

Why are you suggesting that all of the people in your scumlean look towards each other for a compromise...?

[Greeting]

Why are you suggesting that all of the people in your scumlean look towards each other for a compromise...?

Because two of them are town and I want to hear their opinions. I also want to hear the opinions of the scums.

Why are you asking this question?

[StrangeMatter]

Why are you suggesting that all of the people in your scumlean look towards each other for a compromise...?

Because two of them are town and I want to hear their opinions. I also want to hear the opinions of the scums.

Why are you asking this question?

Because rereading it, that feels potentially like scum doing something opportunistic, in a way that you want town members to rip into each other.

[StrangeMatter]

I'm still going to read into them but I'm going to just put a pin in this and shut up.

[Greeting]

Why are you suggesting that all of the people in your scumlean look towards each other for a compromise...?

Because two of them are town and I want to hear their opinions. I also want to hear the opinions of the scums.

Why are you asking this question?

Because rereading it, that feels potentially like scum doing something opportunistic, in a way that you want town members to rip into each other.

Some players indeed may rip into each other. And I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as we agree to turn it into a productive direction and ultimately have five players agree on a single player they want out.

Also, it will be far more interesting to see who doesn't rip into whom.

Let me just say that I could have just chosen to tunnel myself with my vote on Val89. Instead, I chose to try to organise townies to make an informed and reasonable push, from a narrowed list of players, that a majority can agree on.

I'm still going to read into them [...].

Thank you.

[frogsfrogs]

This is the clearest that greeting has been about reads all game and I still don't trust it.

why's that?

I'm seeing greeting echo implosion's reads on you ("catboi's put in too much effort to be scum" is what made him start to townread you today) and on strangematter ("they're fence sitting"), but he uses the opportunity to scumlean strange. I don't think him not having seen this from implosion but arriving at the same ideas is impossible, but I don't believe it and don't like his "it isn't literally word for word!" response either. Not really addressing the issue: that copying off of implosion's homework would be something scum is interested in / fall back to doing, the posts are

so

similar as to be basically word for word, and I don't think he's expanded on the thoughts beyond what implo said.
Again, I think his Implosion section is weak. His examples in the first part are fine and I've not actually been able to articulate my implosion townread better than he does here :'') but when he tries to explain why implosion is only moderate town to him, he's citing implo's "carefulness" that it's supposedly too late in the day for? Implosion hasn't claimed to or seemed to be pushing for a nolim and I don't know why scum

would

, if Val was at e-1. Seems like nonsensical logic, at best totally based on being poisoned on val and at worst trying to call being careful with our lim here a scum thing to do, like he wants us to have rushed into something.

Even though he's my sus too, I think his MafMen read is kind of a straw grasp tbh. "His reads and reason for voting me were simplistic" but the cited post is by design an elaboration-less sort list and a non-explanation on why he finds greeting sus. Feels like taking something out of context, ask follow up questions if you're concerned about no explanation.

My section is, again, something you and Igor have already said, but he adds more of his own here by way of questioning. 1. I voted catboi instead of you because, as you can see in the list you link, I considered him more scummy than you. He was also the one being questioned and pushed at the time. 2. Val said it and was making arguments for the same PoE just before the post you cite, but it was already there in my reads list from the start of the day, so I don't think the "repeated from Val" characterization is very accurate. "Why" is a lot to answer but, generally, I'm strong in my townreads elsewhere, don't think StrangeMatter should be the vote today because we've had people speculate PR on them, and have found you three to be the least convincingly town. I've explained more in the past. 3. I've been trusting Val for a while now because I townread him so strongly on d1. I understand if you're abrased by him but. He asked me to put a vote on him to try and make sure we had a lim / to examine behavior, I didn't think anyone else would actually vote him after I did, or that someone doing unexpectedly would say a lot. I obliged him. Speaking of.

UNVOTE:

[StrangeMatter]

I can probably do MafMen. I'm like, especially susceptible to confirmation bias this game for whatever reason and so me thinking his recent stuff from like a few days ago was townish combined with catboi meta-casing him as town was enough that I kind of ignored him. But under the theory that the last few days would be especially difficult for scum to effectively bluff their way through, he is a player who, well, was absent and wouldn't have had to do that.

StrangeMatter, I don't think Greeting is copying my reads, the point of reads is that if they're sensible people should be able to come to their own conclusions... and besides, the way I'm reading Greeting has little to do with Greeting's own reads.

I’m back.

So, what is the way you’re reading Greeting right now? I also don’t get how you don’t see that as a little odd it’s very similar? I get mindmelding is a real thing, but they use the exact same concept of fencesitty and that I haven’t voted (though, votes can dictate pressure but pressure isn’t always voting, and I just want to pressure people. It also doesn’t mean that someone doesn’t want to vote someone out either).

[implosion]

The way I'm reading Greeting is a combination of the selfvote and the play around it, the way/timing he was pushing igor having not that much utility for scum, and his presence today as things have been in turmoil. But honestly the selfvote is the biggest piece of it.

[Greeting]

So what's the case on MafMen?

Arguments for elimination

As I had mentioned before, in 890 and and 917, I don't like their posting

style

. Not because I'm some kind of English language pedantic. As a matter of fact, English is not my native language. But in my experience in this site, I've encountered two other players who had a similar posting style and

both

were scums. That posting style is grammatically liberal, without clear usage of sentences, something which I interpret as showing off a laid-back attitude. Therefore, I consider this a scumlean by association. Definitely not something that I'd wholly base a case on, but in combination with other factors, this might tip the scales.

Another thing about them that I think is really weird is their change of heart with regard to me. In posts like 288, 294, 296, 312 I am bad town. Now their assessment of me is scummy.

Spoiler: MafMen's reads of me

Greeting:

65
meh reaction
gives the attitude of "hey guys look im suspecting this just like you are, im townie right? haha"

96
the beginning of their 2 day long push on igor is absolutely horrid, they lock igor as scum and as you can see on their section for me they even sort players based on that read
all around their push on igor is bizarre and i think he put it best himself
"I think it’s scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence."

119
looks very bad considering he still tunnels igor

120 123 127
in hindsight this looks like iioa (information instead of analysis), which is when mafia will make random posts about mechanics in order to look like theyre doing something because they struggle with faking reads, and the fact that val pushed this for its apparent antitownieness rather than this still doesnt sit right with me

204
i said it earlier but this just looks like a bluff to keep pressure from building on himself and it seemingly worked, considering people started townreading greeting mainly after this to my recollection.
in no way would we ever test him and he knew this

234
i might be getting myself wrapped up in confbias but the way this appears to me is greeting trying to dial down the theatre with val and look for a reason to agree with him

399 416 430 434
greeting, like val, seemingly forgot he ever pushed and scumread val and officially got started on his nonsensical igorsprite push
i dont know if ive said it before but its as if igor was meant to die at night and was saved, so scum!greeting uses the opportunity that arose from igor digging himself a hole to try and get a lucky igor elimination
i dont buy the whole townie stubborn tunneling bs either, and i think thats just a ruse
remember, "I think it’s scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence."

597
still shoving this belief that he absolutely would have hammered there down our throats like its a confirmed fact

616
after looking through his iso i realize greeting sort of shifted bases here. at first he, not catboi, was the one who brought up the fact that there are setups where a tracker fakeclaim could be "confirmed," yet here he completely forgot that line of thought and went with some nonsense about pr listening to what he said and not ccing

701

lots of fluff only to say catboi is emotional and makes deep posts lol

I made many posts he's scumreading here way before MafMen even voiced the slightest suspicion about me. Why the sudden change of heart? The explanation that comes to my mind is that at this point of the game a Greeting wagon is definitely not viable and sitting on it is a comfy place to be. I mean, after all, Greeting is sus and has been suspected throughout the game so being on there can be justified. And it's a pretty easy way to avoid getting implicated with a misvote. This theory is supported by the fact that they did not join the Thyhinth wagon (368), nor any wagon actually. Mafia like to keep their hands clean and that is what might have happened.

Post 859 is nonsensical - first the assessment is that me voting igorsprite at the time is scummy, then when I unvote it's also scummy? If anything, this post makes MafMen look like a clown.

Arguments against elimination

The content of their posts seems really genuine. MafMen clearly doesn't hold back what he thinks and that is generally a sign of a townie.

He has been absolutely correct with the assessment of the game - in posts like 152, 162, 163, 265, 288. A scum wouldn't really have any reason to make such posts - seems to me like a lot of effort to get townread.

I kind of disagree with you, catboi, on his assessment of me v. Val in 730. It was an annoying and tedious argument and, although really unlikely, could have been a mafia tactic. Although obviously he's wrong on this, I think this judgement can be justified. He confirmed this in 929.

_______________

To be fair, this hasn't been helpful at all. I'm still neutral and conflicted when it comes to this slot. It is, however, around 15 hours until deadline, so if others agree on this wagon and not on anyone from the other three (Val89, StrangeMatter, frogsfrogs) then I'll join it.

[implosion]

VOTE: MafMen

I still think a lim today is better than no lim. If this doesn't coalesce in time I'm open to moving elsewhere but the idea of a MafMen wagon gives me a lot less angst over there being no way in hell it flips scum compared to val or catboi or greeting, at least. I'm open to others in theory (frogs or maybe strangematter, idk) as well but I think this is an acceptable direction for the game to go in, provided Val gets over himself and plays. I guess if this flips town he'll be forced to tomorrow anyway.

[Greeting]

Alright, that’ll be E-2 then. VOTE: MafMen

[catboi]

uuuugh this game