Open 836: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[VP Baltar]

I feel old at 31. Like when I stand up I don't know what's louder, my groaning or my bones cracking.

We accept you as a provisional member of the Olds. A few more years and you'll be in the inner circle. (There is IcyHot)

[Almost50]

Why include stuff like this? Personally I do it as scum because it makes people think along the lines of "oh you have notes so you must be town"

That's exactly why I did it. Are you not reading the game???

[Sleepless Assassin]

Why include stuff like this? Personally I do it as scum because it makes people think along the lines of "oh you have notes so you must be town"

That's exactly why I did it. Are you not reading the game???

Sigh

[Bingle]

You have some partner equity with dunn imo fwiw

Because I didn’t want a N_M hammer or prior to that?

[Fun and Games]

Dats how are you reading me now btw?

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

I could dig it. That was like the scummiest “This is TvT” I’ve ever seen.

Not sure how I feel about F&G pushing Gamma for defending you when I did basically the same thing for the same reasons and pushing Dunn for having a weak reason to read them while I literally cited Pooky not being around. Skirts has felt very reactive and off this game and I kind of want to spend some time talking reads there, but I don’t know when I’ll be available to real time talk.

I kinda feel stuck in limbo waiting for this Dats/Ico thing to pan out.

Someone asked me for reads but I don’t see it skimming back.

A50 is a strong townread. Vp and enchant both seem town, but I could be wrong. I still need to find the time to check dats’ linked meta, but I’m getting the same energy from WYLTBMH from enchant specifically.

Skitter and sassin are giving me weird feels, but I can’t really figure out why. SLA in particular is making it really easy to engage though, so I have high hopes for solving.

VPs take that Dunn might be under the radar scum matches what I feel about that slot atm, and he’s had some pretty weird interactions. (Skitter is scum for not seriously townreading Dunn’s “hi” post? Huh?)

The fact I don’t have any other real scumreads makes me think I’m missing something big though.

@ bingle, you're basically calling out dunn for similar reasons that i am, but dont like me doing it, and while you're putting dunn in your sus list didnt really seem interested in voting him

~ skitter

[Datisi]

so, my out-of-the-fridge-overnight scumcase of vp baltar:

the last two games the two of us have played together are mini normal 2195 and mini normal 2207. for the purposes of this post, all you need to know about 2195 is that i was scum, baltar was town, and his read on me was... not very correct.

in 2207, we were both town. however, due to the game taking place some two weeks after 2195, it took us a while to figure that out. somewhat early on in the game, this sequence between baltar and luca took place: (bolded and underlined the currently relevant parts)

Spoiler:

Datisi Town

Norwee Town
Geraint Town

IV scum

Calling town reads quick on folks who might be argumentative and calling IV scum when he's being silly, plus OMGUSing slightly cause I poked him.

Sounds like Luca is scumming it up on the path of least resistance over there.

I have a lot of experience with Datisi and Norwee and they both seem Town so far

Scum can be silly too

My opinion on you has nothing to do with Omgus, and is more in line with what Norwegian touched on before - you’re commenting on stuff but not really doing anything with it. Right now you’re assuming motives behind my reads without even bothering to question them

I have lots of experience with Datisi as well. It is too early to tell his alignment.

Repeating a point from Norwegian about me (which is very eh to begin with) is definitely in line with OMGUS.

in which baltar immediately pushed back on luca's townread on me, saying that it's way too early for it.

a little bit later on, i called him out for not having a read on me by that point (when i thought he should have one), and these are parts of our conversation that followed:

Spoiler:

i feel like he shouldn't be dead null on me still?

Why? You're gonna have to build trust with me after I went easy on you last game. Clearly the things I find town from your playstyle are fakeable, so I think I have every right to be skeptical of my ability there, yeah?

I'm not saying there aren't differences. But but but...I'd expect you to make alterations if you DID happen to draw scum with me again.

For example, a big tell you did drop in that game was just never really pushing on me. (In some ways, I don't want to say this aloud, but I'm sure you know already). I can see you aren't doing that here, but I'm WIFOMing myself that perhaps you wouldn't do that again. FWIW, nothing about you this game has pinged me on a gut level as bad yet, which is a good sign. I did have some of those pings last game and I stupidly dismissed them as my own paranoia.

I do think I'll be able to sort you, but I expect it will take me a bit longer this time around.

so what's the reason for you shutting down luca's townread of me then? @vp obviously

Because you are a good player, which he knows, and the better a player is, the more time you should probably take to be sure you're sorting them correctly.

and, my personal favourite:

Spoiler:

I hope your scum win made you happy, because now I see darkness behind every corner.

all of these are showing a healthy dose of paranoia of me. most of his play around me that game, especially early, was careful. he wasn't letting me pick up easy townreads, because he knew how much damage scum!me can do when i'm being townread.

compare these quotes to this game? it's night and day. there is NO paranoia, there is zero caution, he's calling me town for most flimsy reasoning of gut and vibes, he doesn't concern himself at all that the vast majority of the game is townreading me for potentially bad reasons. he's vibing. this is why i asked him to elaborate on his townread of me. without actually solid reasons, it just... felt like pocketing.

however, if he truly didn't remember that i was scum in 2195, and wasn't thinking of that game at all, then i'm not sure just how much of this scumcase is valid. typing it out, i do like it again, but ehhh.

as for the tinfoil of lying about not remembering a game that i mentioned in 603: if he realized that he's "forgotten" to show paranoia of me, and realized that i know he should be showing paranoia of me, then "haha i just didn't remember that one game where you had a good scum performance!" is a way to get out of being caught on the basis of not showing paranoia.

also, unrelated to the above, 483 and 489 are disgusting, but i have to run through some meta checks to see if they're scum!indicative. those meta checks require reading through a few isos to see if my memory of games that took place a year and a half ago is correct. that will have to wait, as that is not something i feel like doing on a friday night.

[Datisi]

Dats how are you reading me now btw?

~ skitter

you vaguely remind me of the way you played in that cursed jk9++ game where you hydra'd with mena

i want to say your pestering about my read of ico is +town. if i were truly tinfoiling here, i'd say he's your buddy and you're chaining me to fall down after him, but i don't think that really works since in that scenario you'd know i'm town, and that i'm likely to make it very obvious that i'm not aligned with scum!ico by murdering him once he comes back

so most likely town i think

usually i'd ask what makes you townread me this game (ignoring my ico associates) when you didn't do so last game, but i have a feeling you would be good enough to make up something convincing there if i asked so /shrug

[Datisi]

Dats how are you reading me now btw?

~ skitter

you vaguely remind me of the way you played in that cursed jk9++ game where you hydra'd with mena

i want to say your pestering about my read of ico is +town. if i were truly tinfoiling here, i'd say he's your buddy and you're chaining me to fall down after him, but i don't think that really works since in that scenario you'd know i'm town, and that i'm likely to make it very obvious that i'm not aligned with scum!ico by murdering him once he comes back

so most likely town i think

usually i'd ask what makes you townread me this game (ignoring my ico associates) when you didn't do so last game, but i have a feeling you would be good enough to make up something convincing there if i asked so /shrug

[Fun and Games]

however, if he truly didn't remember that i was scum in 2195, and wasn't thinking of that game at all, then i'm not sure just how much of this scumcase is valid. typing it out, i do like it again, but ehhh.

If he doesn't remember playing those games i'm not sure thks whole case is super scum-indicative tbh

And it makes sense to have paranoia 2 weeks after playing with scum-you, not having paranoia about a game he doesn't remember happening makes sense as well

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

but i don't think that really works since in that scenario you'd know i'm town, and that i'm likely to make it very obvious that i'm not aligned with scum!ico by murdering him once he comes back

I mean the part where you dont seem to be that interested in murdering him is whag's worrying me

And i feel like outside of ico, your questions + wim + thought processes are dwcent

~ skitter

[Datisi]

if i definitely declare my read on ico one way or another now, and i'm wrong, it's going to be extremely hard to correct it later.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I mean I can see if paranoia is missing due to actually knowing your alignment. I'm not sure he'd lie about not remembering something but the fact that he mentioned it multiple times in another game is weird. I could sheep that case combined with my own early mild suspicions if the only alternatives turn out to be Dunn and Gamma which seems possible.

[VP Baltar]

in which baltar immediately pushed back on luca's townread on me, saying that it's way too early for it.

I honestly didn't remember the game, but let's say to steel man your argument, this information had been in my mind.

The point around Lucas Town read came about 300 posts in that game.

We are now around 600 here, so that is around double the information for me to go on in my feelings toward you. Second to that point, I have already said this is a day 1 read and is not the equivalent of me hard town reading you like we did in Jungle oligarchy or something.

It's kind of silly to think I should be super paranoid about you forever because I lost to you once as scum. Of course the game directly after that I am going to be super on guard about my own biases. Doesnt mean that paranoia is a life long affliction or that I didn't learn from those mistakes.

[Gamma Emerald]

Would it be wrong to townblock Datisi/Icon/VP already?

do you have any particular reasoning behind these 3 names?

those ones just made an impression on me early

Bingle is town.

could you elaborate on this claim

Found his explanation of optimal town play related to the roles to be authentic in trying to simply explain what he saw as the best moves for town.

which is like the easiest thing for scum to use and gain town credit
that's an easy read you make there VP

Also scum!bingle likes to focus on mech vs. faking solving so townreading bingle for anything to do with mech is bad play

[Gamma Emerald]

Btw, I'm dead serious about Gamma here. Not gonna say why in details, but he knows as well as I that this is a scumtell of his.

No I don’t and you had a pretty large period where you claimed you couldn’t read me so go ahead and try to provide meta proof that this is somehow scum-indicative for me

[VP Baltar]

And it makes sense to have paranoia 2 weeks after playing with scum-you, not having paranoia about a game he doesn't remember happening makes sense as well

Exactly this.

Unless you're compressing space time, you're comparing apples and oranges here.

[Gamma Emerald]

Also is anyone else finding bingle to be kinda weird?

~ skitter

How

[Gamma Emerald]

Btw, I'm dead serious about Gamma here. Not gonna say why in details, but he knows as well as I that this is a scumtell of his.

I'm not opposed to this. You can't say in detail, but can you state something in general why you'd prefer Gamma over dunn?

Erm.. how to put it? "Gamma scumclaimed to me" might be the way to phrase it without giving out much. Like.. say you told me that Scum!you doesn't vote in RVs, while Town!you does. Then you come into a game and post several time on page 1 but you don't place a RVS vote. That's you practiaclly scumclaiming to me. Nobody else would notice (probably), but it was YOU who told ME that when you do this you're scum.

Yeah I don’t remember anything of this sort relating to what I just did so you can pack your ill-formed read up your ass

[Datisi]

It's kind of silly to think I should be super paranoid about you forever because I lost to you once as scum. Of course the game directly after that I am going to be super on guard about my own biases. Doesnt mean that paranoia is a life long affliction or that I didn't learn from those mistakes.

of course, i wouldn't expect you to have paranoia about me in every single game we play forever. but even then, it's such a stark contrast. i'd expect you to pick up on some of my meta tells and learn from your mistakes, but i just have a feeling i'm not really seeing it being applied here?

[Almost50]

you can pack your ill-formed read up your ass

Gamma, I can only tolerate this ill behaviour so much for old times sake, but if it continues any further I think you know what to expect.

[Gamma Emerald]

Oh you’re guilty of so much worse in that regard though. But that’s not my conversation to have imo.

[Gamma Emerald]

Anyway, I’ll be taking that explanation now

[Almost50]

As fir your scumtell; you told me that -and I loosely paraphrase from memory- Scum!you tries to pick on minor and irrelevant subjects to debate about, thus appear like you're doing something. Your jump on Baltar'a phrasing sound EXACTLY like what you were talking about. Your overreaction to it; trying to make it look like a focal point of the game is so much exaggerated it does indeed look like you making something "big" out of nothing.

I won't debate about this anymore. You told me how to potentially catch Scum!You and I'm only following your advice.

[Gamma Emerald]

Um I think this is pretty important and also in that case Bingle’s objection actually seems pretty relevant? And I seriously forget where I said that but how one you’re only just now using it when we’ve played several times pretty recently with no mention of it, or attempts to bait me into exhibiting that tell?