Open 836: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[Iconeum]

You are literally null because i've been liking posts and yet there's this thing with the little 1v1 we had with the whole read on me thing

why? is that? scummy?

it's annoying

[Datisi]

you are very correct it's annoying

i am an annoying person

but i'm not letting you go free with nonsense pushes on me

[Iconeum]

in any case

if either of Datisi or F&G flips scum at one point, the other is probably town
definitely doesn't feel like scum interaction between them

[Iconeum]

you are very correct it's annoying

i am an annoying person

but i'm not letting you go free with nonsense pushes on me

i want to yeet dunn
have gut bad feelings about skit and games
i'm not pushing you - and if ur honest with yourself I think you know you haven't given me enough for a townread on you at this point

[Datisi]

that's not what i'm saying and you know it

[Datisi]

i can see it. do you think i'm a miracle worker who, just because i once managed to figure out ico's alignment within 5 hours, i'm always gonna be able to do that? hell, this kinda thing has happened before. there are a few games where i nailed scum!bugspray in under 5 pages, and then there are later games where it took me much longer to read their alignment. my read rates on people aren't always consistent.

pedit: thank you

here you even admit that expecting you to be able and read me within 5 minutes of thread presence is wrong, why are you giving me crap about it then?

i'm giving you crap because your 93 and 509 feel like nonsense. it's incorrect to assume i will alwas be able to read you 5 pages in, sure. but that's not what you were arguing, you were (and pretty much are) implying i'm scummy for worrying about not having a read on you yet. but there's a certain disconnect between that and how does that imply i'm more likely scum because of it?

[Fun and Games]

there's 0 or maybe 1 vote on me I think

so you can just go ahead and vote me

I think there's at least 3 or 4

~ skitter

[Fun and Games]

Ok why is that more likely to come from scum-me truing to misflip you vs town-me wanting to get a better read on you ?

Ok work now later

~ skitter

because it feels manipulative, town!you doesn't need a solid read on me on day 1, and scum!you can use the easy misyeet

I mean you're suspicious so yeah i'm gonna push you, i'm not going to just ignore it because 'well i dont *need* a solid read on you day1'

Like what do you think town-me should be doing here

~ skitter

[Bingle]

@SS- can we get prods on Ico and VP perchance?

Sure.

Ico yes, VP is V/LA.

VC 1.6

Gamma Emerald (3)- Almost50, Bingle,
Dunnstral (3)- VP Baltar, Iconeum, Datisi
VP Baltar (1)-
Datisi (1)- SirCakez
Not_Mafia (1)- Not_Mafia
Sleepless Assassin (1)- Enchant
Iconeum (1)- Sleepless Assassin PenguinPower Gamma Emerald
Pengy - Fun and Games

Not voting (2)- , Dunnstral

With 13 alive it takes 7 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2021-11-23 23:00:00)

Mod notes: my toast fell apart this morning

Updated votes: Ico's at 3 skitts. I kinda really don't like that wagon comp atm though.

[Fun and Games]

VOTE: ico

Why did you switch off of the bigger gamma wagon?

VOTE: iconeum
I'm gonna throw my old townblock out the window and make a new one with

blackjack and hookers

cakez, enchant, f&g, and penguin at the center

Why are you voting ico?

~ skitter

[Almost50]

I see posting people



Also; Hi

P.S. Wow! This is an easy way to play the game. How come I've never tried it before?

[PenguinPower]

Why did you switch off of the bigger gamma wagon?

Because I liked gamma better than ico at that point.

[Fun and Games]

Whyyyyyyyyyyy >.>

This is like immediately coming off of an interaction where you're castigating me for not recognizing that you're scumreading gamma

~ skitter

[PenguinPower]

I believe I was castigating you for not remembering that my reads were very close to yours which did not entail scumreading gamma and that I had stated my reason for voting gamma (closest wagon to dunn at the time).

Glad to know that you're paying attention though.

[VP Baltar]

We need a new wagon. Anyone wanna do Iconeum with me?

Curious why you felt we needed a new wagon here, and why you were asking for support rather than just making a case and trying to start one yourself?

PenguinPower

Especially this. What's your thought on why Penguin?

Well why wasn't he included in your post calling out people who "can't keep up"? Have you seen their iso?

Coming back to this: This post from Dunn strikes me as extraordinarily scummy. I asked why he had Penguin as a top suspect, and Dunn immediately deflects and tries to make the post about my positions. That's a huge alarm bell. There's no real reason as town in that situation to try deflection rather than answer a very straightforward question.

Boring Iso as I've said

Why is that scummy?

Isn't this why you voted me?

If you're going to take this angle I expect an unvote.

Second time he tries to deflect when I'm asking him about his vote. The fact that people (even those on his wagon) just let this pass without comment is crazy.

VOTE: Gamma

what made you switch your vote away from dunn?

No competing wagon against Dunn and he was the closest.

Can you give me your philosophy here a little bit? Do you think we should yeet one of Dunn or Gamma today? Does it matter to you which?

Boring Iso as I've said

Why is that scummy?

Isn't this why you voted me?

If you're going to take this angle I expect an unvote.

Lol now. You know I've busted you on this as scum before.

The fact you are making your vote about me shows that your vote is not genuine

"This" being what? And again I ask, do you have an idea of what I play like as town?

I'm not saying you can lurk as town, but there is more than that. When you are here, you aren't engaging or adding to the discussion. You're prod dodging and in the limited exchanges I've seen from you, you're not even directly answering questions. That's scum indicative. There's a difference between doing that and lurking.

On top of that, you bullshit soft claim ... which is not something any townie thinking ahead would do in that situation under what was moderate pressure at best.

Um I think this is pretty important and also in that case Bingle’s objection actually seems pretty relevant? And I seriously forget where I said that but how one you’re only just now using it when we’ve played several times pretty recently with no mention of it, or attempts to bait me into exhibiting that tell?

I agree that my question seems pretty relevant given that A50 was voting you for blowing a little thing that didn't matter out of proportion and my question was whether the fact that you were making a big deal out of what seemed like a pretty easy to clarify misunderstanding.

I disagree that that negatively impacts the strength of his case on you, and in fact think it strengthens it.

Bingle, since you seem to know what this tell was A50 called on Gamma, do you mind breaking this down for me a little more. I'm finding it a little hard to follow. Can you walk me through what you're seeing here?

--------

The Bingle/F&G exchange on pg29 reads like TvT to me. A few not so generous interpretations on each side, but both seem to be trying to understand the other in the end.

---------------------

I still feel like aside from VP my earlier townblocking attempt were kinda solid
cakez and enchant are hard town for me at the very least

The first of the gamma potshots while I was away. This was after he beetlejuiced into the thread when FG & Bingle disagreement turned to a vote on Gamma.

-----------------

Unvote, Vote Gamma

This is better than Dunn. 732 feels more like someone who feels they have no value in this game once they're gone. I don't want to say survivalistic because it feels more like giving up but... I'm trying to think how to phrase this. Just the lack of any kind of "if I die do this" or "let me post some final reads" just feels like he thinks he's going down so his game is over. If that makes sense? It's hard to put words to it.

Coming back here, this stinks to high heaven to me. 1) There is no real explanation why Dunn is a bad wagon, just a desire to deflate the wagon. 2) SA was trying to feel out an Ico wagon in his previous post, but when no one bites he jumps on Gamma, where the momentum was starting to shift at this point. Very high Dunn-SA partner equity, which improving forecasts perhaps for Gamma.

Sa gamma wasnt close to dying when you made that post

~ skitter

Also agree with F&G pressing on SA here.

also don't think SA is nulltown

Where would you place SA in your reads?



---

Ok, I'm going to break this into two posts so it's not a giant wall. Part 2 coming in a min.

[Fun and Games]

This is why i feel like you're being opaque >.>

I remembered that you said your reads are similar to mine, my understanding was the implication of that is that you were scumreading gamma and dunn

I shouldnt have to guess why you're voting people, or what your reads are

Like who are you actually scumreading rn

~ skitter

[PenguinPower]

You literally said gamma was "idk" and I said your reads weren't bad but provided clarification on where we differ. No sure where you picked up scumreading gamma unless you faked your own reads.

I shouldn't have to spoonfeed you everything - make an inference yourself.

[PenguinPower]

Where would you place SA in your reads?

null - drop the town.

[Fun and Games]

I'm trying but you're telling me my inferences are wrong and there's no further explanation in your iso, i'm not a mindreader

~ skitter

[PenguinPower]

Seems you aren't really reading either.

[PenguinPower]

This is going to spiral into unproductiveness so

[VP Baltar]

Penguin --- what made you decide to start taking a more active role and asking questions at this point in the day? Not complaining, but I just sort of assumed you were going to lurk most of the day and give us stuff on D2. Curious why you shifted styles around 30 pages in.

i'm not digging my dunn vote anymore but also i am not digging anything else - someone try to sell me on something please

What exactly changed wrt to Dunn for you?

i'm not sure i see what about his approach there makes him obvtown

Should I be obvtown to you by now?

penguin is penguin
not a fan of the slot, but afaik there's not much use pushing him on day one since he usually just like, doesn't do much, no? so he's generally a wait and see for me

Seems like he was posting notably more by the time you made this post. Why throw your hands in the air here?

this is what baltar originally said, and i do think this can easily be understood as "they're lurking / not keeping up with all of the content" so. yeah i don't think gamma looks that bad here at all. (and now i'm reminded just *how much* i originally disliked that case...)

While it's true one could have interpreted that original posting as being about post volume, it was very quickly clarified when I was asked. So, as far as I can tell, your interpretation here is completely wrong.

Every single person I mentioned was being reactive to the thread and not actively pursuing original inquiries or trying to move the game at that point. THIS was the point I was making. In a game with many competent players, it can take scum a minute to feel comfortable and find a path forward. Until that path is found, scum tend to be more reactive and hesitant.

You may disagree with that assertion. But to say that it makes no sense or was inaccurate of anyone on that list at the time I made that post is flat wrong from my perspective.

gonna go reread some iso's from old games because i think i won't be able to focus on my art if i don't do that now.

Why is so much of your play today based on meta and not what's happening in this game? I think it's a bit odd you're trying to make these very complex meta cases on D1. Like, I expect Datisi to definitely reference meta over the course of the game, but you seem to be heavily relying upon it to the point it comes across to me like you're more meta focused than game focused.

@SA

Fwiw contextually I’m pretty sure gamma has been going through rough times IRL (<3 Gamma). Does that info color your read of the wagon response?

Unvote

I can see where that would make it unmotivating to do townie things after being wagoned. Hope things get better soon Gamma. I still think Dunn is more likely town than Gamma so if the wagon pops back up as a counter to Dunn I'm probably jumping back on.

But I'm not really scumreading Gamma either.

Vote Iconeum

Can we just do this? It feels like there's more support for it than the votes have suggested so far and usually when I get that feeling, it turns out I'm voting scum.

lol wut dafuq? (emphasis mine)

I think it's less a lie and more such a nebulous accusation that it's essentially nothing, he couldn't even defend what he meant when pressed on it because it didn't really MEAn anything.

^This is complete bullshit. Nothing I said was nebulous. I made a very clear point of why I find adrift behavior scummy in a game like this. Saying I "couldn't defend" what I said while I'm on VLA, and to a point I already clearly defended upon being asked, is incredibly slimy.

Dunnstral (3)- VP Baltar, Iconeum, Datisi

This wagon comp is

interesting

Another pot shot that says exactly ZERO.

I kinda wanna vote somewhere that isn't VP but I also fucking hate him trying to act like I owe him anything
It's that age-old thing of "you respect me

as an authority

and I'll respect you

as a person

" which I do not support or abide in any form

On the flip side, gamma may be town because this is the type of personality conflict stuff that he death spirals on as town with me all the time. Stop hating me because I'm beautiful and life would be so much easier.

explain to me how me being reactionary is scummy and not a personality trait?

Explained this above, but replying to you directly incase you miss it. Scum in a competent player list is more likely to be reactionary early in the game because staking out original avenues of inquiry is more likely to draw heat or pushback. That's unsafe ground when you have a player list that is experienced and may be willing to apply serious pressure over a slip or poorly formed accusation. Reacting and lurking, meanwhile, is the type of behavior that often gets dismissed on D1 as not being a strong enough reason to yeet someone.

also there's more to be said about Dunn then just being reactionary and not freeflowing.

Go for it. At the point I made that case, there was little outside that and two games where that was his exact scum meta.

i have a tinfoil theory that involves Fun and Games, Datisi and myself… i'm probably getting heat for this but i don't really care lol

Fun and Games' scumread on me feels really weak. They are pushing Datisi as associative with me because they know i'm yeetbait and the *one* thing standing in their way for easy achievement of that is Datisi townreading me

So this could literally be scum!Fun and Games (damn that name, i tried abreviating that) pushing town!tisi into some sort of corner with regards to my slot, trying to 1) make sure there's no town!tisi defending me and 2) stopping potential town cohesion from forming

You're right that this is very tinfoil.

i take that approach as scum

mostly because i take it as town and have to fake it as scum

soooooo

I actually agree with Ico here a little bit. Some of your flexes this game have been a little weirdly strong. Could just be because I found your "meta" of me kind of silly, but you also poked at F&G for townreading you, didn't you? Seemed a bit over the top. If I'm being completely suspicious minded, it's a good tactic to pre-emptively attack people and that way if they ever turn on you, you can point back and frame it as them reacting to your earlier push.

Let me put this another way, who are your townreads Datisi?

[PenguinPower]

Penguin --- what made you decide to start taking a more active role and asking questions at this point in the day? Not complaining, but I just sort of assumed you were going to lurk most of the day and give us stuff on D2. Curious why you shifted styles around 30 pages in.

I had RL issues last week that impacted my availability as I mentioned to skitter.

[VP Baltar]

Wow, just ISOed Sleepless Assassin .... dude had an RVS-level vote on Ico out there until he determined the Dunn wagon was "bad" and he voted for Gamma.

>>insert Twitter red flag meme here<<

[Something_Smart]

γ