Open 836: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[Fun and Games]

this just ended and it went not terribly! (probably)

Yay!

[Fun and Games]

Nice pagetop

I'm not really sure what to do with the fact that like all of dunn/gamma/ico are pushing each other

I also feel like we're stalling a bit and that maybr we should just pick one and go with it

~ skitter

[VP Baltar]

A few not so generous interpretations on each side, but both seem to be trying to understand the other in the end.

Where do you think I wasn’t generous with my interpretation and why should i have been?

There was the exchange you had with F&G over whether they were pushing people outside of Dunn (or as you later clarified, why they weren't pushing on you specifically).

At one point in that exchange, you two were sorting out a misunderstanding over meaning and you said this after F&G quoted you:

Is there any particular reason you snipped the context that that was explaining a post literally half the game before it and presented it as though I was saying you're not pushing people right now?

Which felt a little accusatory to me as an outside observer -- or rather a potential bad faith interpretation of the way F&G quoted you. (will admit, I've had similar reactions as town before when I feel like someone is ignoring context though, so....)

That being said, your follow up post further explaining your thought process felt +town to me since you interpreted it as a misunderstanding.

Overall, I came away from that exchange feeling better about both of you because it would have been easy to lean into bad faith arguments there.

[VP Baltar]

I don't like that Ico slacked off on the thread as soon as Datisi had a day off.

I also am mildly annoyed I put a good amount of effort into my catchup and engaged with lots of people there to generate some conversation, and it has received little response.

[Datisi]

while i'm catching up:

baltar, if i went on the quest of voting the dragon, would you be interested in joining me?

[Bingle]

Sell me on why Sleep is townier than Gamma.

Anyway, I feel like the issue with A50’s point against me is it’s very YMMV: how important what I was questioning VP on is varies from person to person. So my main rebuttal was to bring up “you think this is unimportant but to me this might be valuable in bringing down VP because IMO he’s talking up a crock of shit like it’s gold”.

No, I think your gamestate analysis was essentially irrelevant
Like, sure I wasn’t really engaged w the game (which ig is what you said), but that doesn’t make me scum. I’m v much a do things my own way guy so expecting me to engage at the same rate and same manner is not wise
And I also again just rlly dislike how when I acted up you tried to bully me into voting your wagon of choice

Walk me through what changed here.

Also, you're trying to convince me to bail on a wagon on a scumread for a wagon with a lesser scumread that doesn't have as many participants.

[VP Baltar]

while i'm catching up:

baltar, if i went on the quest of voting the dragon, would you be interested in joining me?

Id want to hear the actual case. I'm much more interested in a Dunn or possibly SA yeet today.

[Datisi]

while i'm catching up:

baltar, if i went on the quest of voting the dragon, would you be interested in joining me?

Id want to hear the actual case. I'm much more interested in a Dunn or possibly SA yeet today.

if i said the case is "i think he's scum and i'm a dragon whisperer", would that be enough for you?

[VP Baltar]

while i'm catching up:

baltar, if i went on the quest of voting the dragon, would you be interested in joining me?

Id want to hear the actual case. I'm much more interested in a Dunn or possibly SA yeet today.

if i said the case is "i think he's scum and i'm a dragon whisperer", would that be enough for you?

No, sadly

[Datisi]

i'm not digging my dunn vote anymore but also i am not digging anything else - someone try to sell me on something please

What exactly changed wrt to Dunn for you?

wrt dunn, not much. i did remember some of dunn's meta that i'd forgotten up until now, but this bad feeling mainly came from the wagon and the gamestate itself. i'm not great at explaining feelings here, but the way it just kinda stalled and didn't move anymore gives me a bad vibe. and it seems like there's not much point pressuring there at the moment.

i'm not sure i see what about his approach there makes him obvtown

Should I be obvtown to you by now?

should? probably not, no. but just because i don't see it doesn't mean i'm not interested in if someone else does, especially as sorting you early would save me a lot of headache this game.

also, i forgot about that question and only now realize it hasn't been answered.

@skitter?

penguin is penguin
not a fan of the slot, but afaik there's not much use pushing him on day one since he usually just like, doesn't do much, no? so he's generally a wait and see for me

Seems like he was posting notably more by the time you made this post. Why throw your hands in the air here?

er, he may have been posting more than earlier, but that doesn't mean he was like, doing something (no shade pp <3) or was readable to me. up to that point, p much all he's done is vote big wagons, argue with skitt, and kinda sorta put out a readslist. which i'm not sure i would say is a lot of content -- did you find him readable at this point?

this is what baltar originally said, and i do think this can easily be understood as "they're lurking / not keeping up with all of the content" so. yeah i don't think gamma looks that bad here at all. (and now i'm reminded just *how much* i originally disliked that case...)

While it's true one could have interpreted that original posting as being about post volume, it was very quickly clarified when I was asked. So, as far as I can tell, your interpretation here is completely wrong.

Every single person I mentioned was being reactive to the thread and not actively pursuing original inquiries or trying to move the game at that point. THIS was the point I was making. In a game with many competent players, it can take scum a minute to feel comfortable and find a path forward. Until that path is found, scum tend to be more reactive and hesitant.

You may disagree with that assertion. But to say that it makes no sense or was inaccurate of anyone on that list at the time I made that post is flat wrong from my perspective.

yeah, my interpretation in 791 is pretty wrong, considering you did explain somewhat soon after making that post.

however, i do think i would disagree with that assertion. up to that point, gamma appeared to me to be pretty engaged with the game, even moreso than what i usually expect. i just reread his iso from the beginning to the game up to that point, and it seemed to be pretty... solid? like he had a decent amount of reads and was solving. which is partly why i could understand gamma there, because the "case" on him felt pretty... i dunno, incorrect?

could you talk about what made you feel like he's coasting? because i didn't get the impression at all.

gonna go reread some iso's from old games because i think i won't be able to focus on my art if i don't do that now.

Why is so much of your play today based on meta and not what's happening in this game? I think it's a bit odd you're trying to make these very complex meta cases on D1. Like, I expect Datisi to definitely reference meta over the course of the game, but you seem to be heavily relying upon it to the point it comes across to me like you're more meta focused than game focused.

i don't know. there really isn't a much better answer than "i do what gut tells me will make me be able to solve the game most accurately", and it seems to be a decent amount of meta this game. do you think it actually makes me scummy? i know i'm odd.

(also, "this person isn't suspicious of me when town!them usually is" isn't that complex of a meta case >_>)

i take that approach as scum

mostly because i take it as town and have to fake it as scum

soooooo

I actually agree with Ico here a little bit. Some of your flexes this game have been a little weirdly strong. Could just be because I found your "meta" of me kind of silly, but you also poked at F&G for townreading you, didn't you? Seemed a bit over the top. If I'm being completely suspicious minded, it's a good tactic to pre-emptively attack people and that way if they ever turn on you, you can point back and frame it as them reacting to your earlier push.

talk about tinfoil.

yes, i did poke at skitt for townreading me, mostly because there's an actually similar pattern to you. a game where i was scum and fooled town!skitter (the pinnacle of my scumplay career tbh, might as well retire after that), a game where we were both town and she kept breathing down my neck for the entire game, and now this game where she is casually townreading me. should i not find it odd?

your theory is nice, but... isn't that applicable to like, the vast majority of all pushes that have been done in mafia, ever?

Let me put this another way, who are your townreads Datisi?

let's see... i have at some points had townpings on all of gamma, cakez, a50, sleepless assassin, f&g. also some traces of townpings on you and bingle, but nothing that i can concretely put into words just yet.

[Datisi]

Sensei teach me art of prodges.

this is comical coming from you

[Datisi]

i feel like 989 should make me feel Feelings, but it's blank

bingle, what's your take on what's happening considering your 5 lowest reads are more or less just pushing each other?

[Datisi]

what happens if i

VOTE: iconeum

[PenguinPower]

[Bingle]

bingle, what's your take on what's happening considering your 5 lowest reads are more or less just pushing each other?

The inverse of that sentence is that my highest reads are all fairly universally read as town, which leads me to the conclusion of mostly successful townblocking.

I think the answer is to flip one of the people who are likely scum and then, you know, reevaluate if they aren't.

[Bingle]

@Dats:

Can someone explain why not relying on preflip associatives is scummy, cause idgi.

[Datisi]

meh, sure, that makes enough sense. maybe it's me always being the pessimist. and i didn't say it was scummy?

[Bingle]

however, i do think i would disagree with that assertion. up to that point, gamma appeared to me to be pretty engaged with the game, even moreso than what i usually expect. i just reread his iso from the beginning to the game up to that point, and it seemed to be pretty... solid? like he had a decent amount of reads and was solving. which is partly why i could understand gamma there, because the "case" on him felt pretty... i dunno, incorrect?

This. 100% This.

Which makes it all the weirder that Gamma would focus in on the "VP was complaining the game was too fast" angle, double down that that line of questioning was important and then just kind of drop it.

[Bingle]

meh, sure, that makes enough sense. maybe it's me always being the pessimist. and i didn't say it was scummy?

I thought you did, but in regards to Ico's list. Maybe you didn't, but a lot of people did and I feel like I'm missing the lead there.

[Datisi]

however, i do think i would disagree with that assertion. up to that point, gamma appeared to me to be pretty engaged with the game, even moreso than what i usually expect. i just reread his iso from the beginning to the game up to that point, and it seemed to be pretty... solid? like he had a decent amount of reads and was solving. which is partly why i could understand gamma there, because the "case" on him felt pretty... i dunno, incorrect?

This. 100% This.

Which makes it all the weirder that Gamma would focus in on the "VP was complaining the game was too fast" angle, double down that that line of questioning was important and then just kind of drop it.

the only answer left is really bad theatre /s

meh, sure, that makes enough sense. maybe it's me always being the pessimist. and i didn't say it was scummy?

I thought you did, but in regards to Ico's list. Maybe you didn't, but a lot of people did and I feel like I'm missing the lead there.

nah, i find him scummy for other reasons. i didn't think your reads are scummy, i just found it odd and wanted you to elaborate. which you did.

[VP Baltar]

this bad feeling mainly came from the wagon and the gamestate itself. i'm not great at explaining feelings here, but the way it just kinda stalled and didn't move anymore gives me a bad vibe.

I'm confused how a wagon stalling gives you a bad vibe. If anything, isn't that an indicator scum are not wanting it?

er, he may have been posting more than earlier, but that doesn't mean he was like, doing something (no shade pp <3) or was readable to me. up to that point, p much all he's done is vote big wagons, argue with skitt, and kinda sorta put out a readslist. which i'm not sure i would say is a lot of content -- did you find him readable at this point?

I don't have strong feelings about Penguin, but probably more town vibes than scum vibes if I had to make a call at this very moment. Reads to me a bit like a town player who wants D1 to end so some actual analysis can happen...which I get.

however, i do think i would disagree with that assertion. up to that point, gamma appeared to me to be pretty engaged with the game, even moreso than what i usually expect. i just reread his iso from the beginning to the game up to that point, and it seemed to be pretty... solid? like he had a decent amount of reads and was solving. which is partly why i could understand gamma there, because the "case" on him felt pretty... i dunno, incorrect?

could you talk about what made you feel like he's coasting? because i didn't get the impression at all.

Yeah, no.

Gamma spent most of that game up to that point dumping town reads with no explanation, passing banter with folks (which I don't have a problem with) and spending an inordinate amount of time talking about enchant and his town read of enchant. I don't really see solving happening there, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. It's a pretty light affair in his ISO through 480, which is where I mentioned him in my early bad vibes list.

I will say someone mentioned Gamma has some IRL shit going on, so I am taking that into consideration in reviewing my own read there.

i don't know. there really isn't a much better answer than "i do what gut tells me will make me be able to solve the game most accurately", and it seems to be a decent amount of meta this game. do you think it actually makes me scummy? i know i'm odd.

(also, "this person isn't suspicious of me when town!them usually is" isn't that complex of a meta case >_>)

I don't know if it's scummy, but definitely notable to me. Could just be how you're approaching this game. It could also be a contrived play that looks like busy work. Guessing the motivation behind it would be nothing more than speculation at this point, but it stuck out to me as maybe slightly different than how I've seen you play before. METAING THE METAING.

talk about tinfoil.

yes, i did poke at skitt for townreading me, mostly because there's an actually similar pattern to you. a game where i was scum and fooled town!skitter (the pinnacle of my scumplay career tbh, might as well retire after that), a game where we were both town and she kept breathing down my neck for the entire game, and now this game where she is casually townreading me. should i not find it odd?

your theory is nice, but... isn't that applicable to like, the vast majority of all pushes that have been done in mafia, ever?

This I disagree with on a couple levels.

First, you're accusing skitter and me of doing the exact same thing...which is just weird. Like, do you think we are both scum? If no, then the thing you're doing seems like it's maybe not alignment indicative.

Second, going on the offense as scum isn't really a crazy strategy. It is more risky, but the rewards are also higher. I don't think it's applicable to all mafia pushes. I think scum play more passive or aggressive based upon each player's approach. You are absolutely someone who isn't going to play a passive game if you draw scum, so it doesn't seem crazy to me at all.

townpings on all of gamma, cakez, a50, sleepless assassin, f&g.

Very confused on the SA town read. What do you think of his voting record?

[VP Baltar]

i find him scummy for other reasons.

go on

[Bingle]

@Dats:

Can someone explain why not relying on preflip associatives is scummy, cause idgi.

Went back and checked, and it was actually Gamma, VP and kind of Dunn. (Dunn only quoted the post about the reads not containing associatives and then said Ico shouldn't be voting him, but I think that's saying scumreading people who are mutually scumreading each other is scummy.)

So I guess I want Gamma/VP/Dunn to tell me why not relying on preflip associatives is scummy.

[VP Baltar]

So I guess I want Gamma/VP/Dunn to tell me why not relying on preflip associatives is scummy.

Well, fwiw, I simply said it didn't make sense to me to be moving forward on D1 with conflicting theories of the game.

The problem I see with Ico's list is this: Let's say we yeet someone on that list and they flip --- town or scum --- what does Ico learn about the rest of the list? Potentially very little since there are conflicting theories underlying said list.

At best, this is just a not great way to play or it is leaving a lot of doors open to change your reads later so the rest of the town can't hold you to anything. I'd rather see someone try to make a theory of the game work and fail, personally. At least then I, as a town player, can question that person why they felt that way specifically.

[Not_Mafia]

I could swear I just posted