Open 836: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[Datisi]

boop

[Fun and Games]

also, i forgot about that question and only now realize it hasn't been answered. @skitter?

Sorry, what are you asking me here?

yes, i did poke at skitt for townreading me, mostly because there's an actually similar pattern to you. a game where i was scum and fooled town!skitter (the pinnacle of my scumplay career tbh, might as well retire after that), a game where we were both town and she kept breathing down my neck for the entire game, and now this game where she is casually townreading me. should i not find it odd?

I'm not sure i would agree with the assertion that i am 'casually townreading' you

Also your ico vote isnt really making me feel any better abt your dynamic with him tbh. It makes me feel better that he's scum tho - if you're town you probably have a correct read, yay, and if you're scum i dont think you choose to push town-ico in this fashion since you're just gonna be pushed after he flips town

~ skitter

[Datisi]

this bad feeling mainly came from the wagon and the gamestate itself. i'm not great at explaining feelings here, but the way it just kinda stalled and didn't move anymore gives me a bad vibe.

I'm confused how a wagon stalling gives you a bad vibe. If anything, isn't that an indicator scum are not wanting it?

imagine asking me to explain vibes

i don't know. if i were forced to give an explanation, i'd say it almost gives a vibe of the town losing interest in a lhf player, and scum being awkward and not wanting to push it because they're aware they're gonna look bad for pushing lhf. which, i know from the outside is not easily distinguishable from "dunn is scum and scum don't wanna push him", but that's the game i guess.

er, he may have been posting more than earlier, but that doesn't mean he was like, doing something (no shade pp <3) or was readable to me. up to that point, p much all he's done is vote big wagons, argue with skitt, and kinda sorta put out a readslist. which i'm not sure i would say is a lot of content -- did you find him readable at this point?

I don't have strong feelings about Penguin, but probably more town vibes than scum vibes if I had to make a call at this very moment. Reads to me a bit like a town player who wants D1 to end so some actual analysis can happen...which I get.

okay, and if you had to make the call at the moment when you asked me that question...

like, part of what i don't get is how you're calling out gamma for not doing much, but from the pov of someone not aware of penguin's meta, it seems like penguin has done much less?

however, i do think i would disagree with that assertion. up to that point, gamma appeared to me to be pretty engaged with the game, even moreso than what i usually expect. i just reread his iso from the beginning to the game up to that point, and it seemed to be pretty... solid? like he had a decent amount of reads and was solving. which is partly why i could understand gamma there, because the "case" on him felt pretty... i dunno, incorrect?

could you talk about what made you feel like he's coasting? because i didn't get the impression at all.

Yeah, no.

Gamma spent most of that game up to that point dumping town reads with no explanation, passing banter with folks (which I don't have a problem with) and spending an inordinate amount of time talking about enchant and his town read of enchant. I don't really see solving happening there, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. It's a pretty light affair in his ISO through 480, which is where I mentioned him in my early bad vibes list.

I will say someone mentioned Gamma has some IRL shit going on, so I am taking that into consideration in reviewing my own read there.

i'm getting that from having townreads and going through older games to look at wagon dynamics. if we disagree on that being game advancing, then i guess we disagree, idk what to tell you.

i don't know. there really isn't a much better answer than "i do what gut tells me will make me be able to solve the game most accurately", and it seems to be a decent amount of meta this game. do you think it actually makes me scummy? i know i'm odd.

(also, "this person isn't suspicious of me when town!them usually is" isn't that complex of a meta case >_>)

I don't know if it's scummy, but definitely notable to me. Could just be how you're approaching this game. It could also be a contrived play that looks like busy work. Guessing the motivation behind it would be nothing more than speculation at this point, but it stuck out to me as maybe slightly different than how I've seen you play before. METAING THE METAING.

if i may countermeta the metaing of meta: scum!me loves busywork, but "reading through old games in hopes of making a case on someone that will be reliant on meta" is... not busywork for scum!me. like, it would be much easier to just make up some nonsense about the things in the thread. (i obviously understand this is gonna be taken with a huge grain of salt because self meta bad, but you get my point.)

talk about tinfoil.

yes, i did poke at skitt for townreading me, mostly because there's an actually similar pattern to you. a game where i was scum and fooled town!skitter (the pinnacle of my scumplay career tbh, might as well retire after that), a game where we were both town and she kept breathing down my neck for the entire game, and now this game where she is casually townreading me. should i not find it odd?

your theory is nice, but... isn't that applicable to like, the vast majority of all pushes that have been done in mafia, ever?

This I disagree with on a couple levels.

First, you're accusing skitter and me of doing the exact same thing...which is just weird. Like, do you think we are both scum? If no, then the thing you're doing seems like it's maybe not alignment indicative.

Second, going on the offense as scum isn't really a crazy strategy. It is more risky, but the rewards are also higher. I don't think it's applicable to all mafia pushes. I think scum play more passive or aggressive based upon each player's approach. You are absolutely someone who isn't going to play a passive game if you draw scum, so it doesn't seem crazy to me at all.

yes, i am accusing you of doing the same thing, because you two did the same thing. i don't think it's impossible, but no, i don't currently think you two are scum together. but i'm not sure where you're getting the... "either a tell is 100% accurate in all cases, or it's not alignment indicative". like, you yourself have once called out scum!me for not showing paranoia around you, so i reckon you don't think the tell is complete nonsense. it doesn't make you or skitter lockscum sure, but it's a piece of the puzzle. why such a black-and-white view on tells?

i'm not saying that going on the offense as scum is a crazy strategy, hell it's been my main strategy as scum for a while now. my actual issue with that is that you're taking two of my pushes and coming up with this galaxy brain strategy reason for scum!me to perform those pushes. but i don't exactly see the connection, like i don't see why "you're pre-epmtively scumreading these people so that you can accuse them of omgus if they start scumreading you" can't be applied to *any* push that i made this game, and why it's apparently tied only to my "why are you townreading me easily" pushes.

townpings on all of gamma, cakez, a50, sleepless assassin, f&g.

Very confused on the SA town read. What do you think of his voting record?

it was a vibe a bit back that i kinda forgot about, let me go through the iso again to see what was i thinking

okay, i liked his og vote on ico and the explanation behind it, and 616 pinged me as genuinely trying to solve the game, maybe because of the "are you an overthinker" question, made it feel like there's some gears turning behind the scenes

that said, the vote on gamma is a bit, uh. i'm not sure if i wanna say scummy, because in my experience (most) scum usually doesn't jump on the wagon to hope to push it through like that that relatively early in the game, but it definitely makes it worth to keep an eye on that slot for a bit.

[Datisi]

i find him scummy for other reasons.

go on

not sure how much i want to go on, considering i'm still holding out some hope ico actually talks to me, and i think there's value in that conversation being untainted regardless of his own actual alignment. (also i'm slightly short on time tonight so uh yeah.) you can probably see my main issues if you read the convos he and i have been having?

skitt, can you convince me baltar is town?

I really like his earlygame, there was such clear obvtownie posting, and the way he was approachinf things was just ... great

i also liked his early game, mostly for tonal reasons, but my tonal reads accuracy on baltar has historically been 0% and i'm not sure i see what about his approach there makes him obvtown

@skitt, i guess i should've properly framed this as a question, basically to elaborate on that claim

and, besides the ico stuff, you're townreading my thought process and activity and all that stuff without really questioning me much on it, which i found weird.

[SirCakez]

reading now
sorry I know it's been a hot sec

[SirCakez]

I still feel like aside from VP my earlier townblocking attempt were kinda solid
cakez and enchant are hard town for me at the very least

why are you so confident on me?

i just reread like 200 posts from an old game's iso and i am not finding what i thought i was gonna find and i am upsetti

gonna go out for a walk then have dinner then (a) keep doing pointless iso reading (b) make art (c) actually study???? we'll see

what did you want?
honestly I find this so weird - like you were digging for something to use for your PoV and it didn't work which is something I associate with scum

i'm kinda vacillating on whether town-or-scum gamma is more likely to have a very apathetic response to being wagoned rn

ahhhhhhhhh

~ skitter

the answer is scum as seen in Doubles Mafia

[SirCakez]

I think Ico's page 36 is really town

[Gamma Emerald]

Anyway, I feel like the issue with A50’s point against me is it’s very YMMV: how important what I was questioning VP on is varies from person to person. So my main rebuttal was to bring up “you think this is unimportant but to me this might be valuable in bringing down VP because IMO he’s talking up a crock of shit like it’s gold”.

No, I think your gamestate analysis was essentially irrelevant
Like, sure I wasn’t really engaged w the game (which ig is what you said), but that doesn’t make me scum. I’m v much a do things my own way guy so expecting me to engage at the same rate and same manner is not wise
And I also again just rlly dislike how when I acted up you tried to bully me into voting your wagon of choice

Walk me through what changed here.

Trying to be more rational?

[SirCakez]

Also, the pressure dissipating on Gamma and Dunn as soon as I was away looks suspicious. Shenanigans are afoot.

who do you think is responsible for this?

[SirCakez]

SirC's been pushing and seeking support for his pushes - i like his general thread presence

have I? lol I don't understand why I am getting townreads this game I have hardly been doing anything

[SirCakez]

like normally I have to fucking bust my ass to get townreads

[Gamma Emerald]

Townie

A50
VP
Enchant
SirC

Varying degrees of nullishness

Datisi
Fun and Games
Not_Maf
PP
Ico

Scummy

SA
Dunn
GE

Format shamelessly stoled from a dargon, ordered within tiers.

Why are A50 and VP town for you
I am intrigued by those reads because you’re other 2 TRs are ones I’ve had for a while, so maybe we can sync a bit if we talk

[SirCakez]

VOTE: fun and games
based on page 37
they feel super manipulative

[VP Baltar]

it seems like penguin has done much less?

so has Not_Mafia, but we all know that's a lost cause. I can't remember playing with Penguin before, and I'm gathering from others that this is his D1 style. Am I interpreting that wrong?

[SirCakez]

also Penguin is town this game

[Gamma Emerald]

@Dats:

Can someone explain why not relying on preflip associatives is scummy, cause idgi.

Went back and checked, and it was actually Gamma, VP and kind of Dunn. (Dunn only quoted the post about the reads not containing associatives and then said Ico shouldn't be voting him, but I think that's saying scumreading people who are mutually scumreading each other is scummy.)

So I guess I want Gamma/VP/Dunn to tell me why not relying on preflip associatives is scummy.

It’s not, I just felt like Icon’s SRs seemed political on some level

[VP Baltar]

if i may countermeta the metaing of meta: scum!me loves busywork, but "reading through old games in hopes of making a case on someone that will be reliant on meta" is... not busywork for scum!me. like, it would be much easier to just make up some nonsense about the things in the thread. (i obviously understand this is gonna be taken with a huge grain of salt because self meta bad, but you get my point.)

Maybe it would be? But nonsense things in thread are more likely to get pushback. I'm not going to spend a bunch of time arguing meta with you, so I can see that as an effective EFFORT strategy as scum.

All that being said, it's not an unfair point you're making.

[Gamma Emerald]

why are you so confident on me?

I don’t really sense manipulation from you

[SirCakez]

VP is right in 939 - Dunn is playing like he does as scum
actually Baltar is just town as hell - the thoughts in 946 are town generated through and through

[SirCakez]

wrt dunn, not much. i did remember some of dunn's meta that i'd forgotten up until now, but this bad feeling mainly came from the wagon and the gamestate itself. i'm not great at explaining feelings here, but the way it just kinda stalled and didn't move anymore gives me a bad vibe. and it seems like there's not much point pressuring there at the moment.

this usually indicates the wagon is on scum no?

[VP Baltar]

yes, i am accusing you of doing the same thing, because you two did the same thing. i don't think it's impossible, but no, i don't currently think you two are scum together. but i'm not sure where you're getting the... "either a tell is 100% accurate in all cases, or it's not alignment indicative". like, you yourself have once called out scum!me for not showing paranoia around you, so i reckon you don't think the tell is complete nonsense. it doesn't make you or skitter lockscum sure, but it's a piece of the puzzle. why such a black-and-white view on tells?

Just trying to think through your thought process in making the same accusation twice. What I'm saying is that it's either a solid accusation or not in your mind. It seems like perhaps it is less "AH HA!" than you made it out to be originally (which is fine, I get a little hyperbole when you're attacking someone to apply pressure.)

[VP Baltar]

Also, the pressure dissipating on Gamma and Dunn as soon as I was away looks suspicious. Shenanigans are afoot.

who do you think is responsible for this?

I don't think I can point to any one person. I went away for the weekend, and POOF, no more pressure. It may not be nefarious, but I do find it confusing that people were actually listening to me about Dunn and then suddenly everyone is acting like it's a shit case.

[VP Baltar]

SirC's been pushing and seeking support for his pushes - i like his general thread presence

have I? lol I don't understand why I am getting townreads this game I have hardly been doing anything

Major townpoints to Cakes for this actually. I was wondering why the hell everyone is town binning him as well since he wasn't here, and then he calls it out himself!

[SirCakez]

also I have scum pings from A50
nothing in particular I can point to but I'm not feeling it with him? I don't know how to describe it

[SirCakez]

right now my scum pool would be like (F&G, Dats, Dunn, A50)
maybe Enchant but I don't want to fuck with the LHF right now