Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[catboi]

i believe i was in that pool

I don't recall FOSing you end of day 1, recall thinking you were town? I need to check, I've obviously been all over the place this game.

If we eliminate the goon today then we gain 2 clears.

how?

by igorsprite's claim, he was blocked both nights. That means implo cannot have been targeting the roleblocker, which would clear both Me and StrangeMatter.

[catboi]

I'm fine with this ┐( ˘_˘)┌

If town, would advise looking into frogs for their vote here

If scum, remember what I said about Val (don't think a townflip is great for Val but a scumflip is really bad)

Right, I actually said I felt okayish about you mafmen (in another post), then second-guessed (or third-guessed, really) at the start of day 2.

[catboi]

I think frogs has actually been very impressive in their posting since I started attacking them. I also think they still have a significant amount of suspicious posts.

[frogsfrogs]

I'm wondering, @frogfrogs why were you agreeing with me so much on half of the stuff on Greeting's wagon, looking back when I read back in the ISO?

I agreed because I totally saw the same thing you did in their reads post. ^^'' I was vocal about him being on my sus list too.

[frogsfrogs]

That leaves a nice small pool of Val, frogs, and MafMen for today.

This whole post from implosion makes a lot of sense. Getting the roleblocker is the most important thing right now and if we manage to find them, the goon should come easily after. We'll have our PRs fully back, we can look for partners, and we have two mechanical clears.

[frogsfrogs]

If it's

somehow

goon/goon setup and igor's been the luckiest scum ever, we either 1. mislim today and get a second chance tomorrow with an even more limited pool, reevaluate then and restart chart? or 2. get the second goon today and know tomorrow whether to consider igor or not. (newbie assumption / question coming up) Mafia can only do one action at night, right..? So we know igor won't be roleblocked

and

there be a kill if only one is left. He'd be forced to no kill or fake a track result and "clear" someone as town, and it better be someone relevant if he wants us to believe him. He either limits the lim space by giving us a real town confirm and constricts himself, or no kills, or, like, tries to pull a gambit about having seen someone visit and immediately narrows it down to him or them.

[frogsfrogs]

VOTE: MafMen

Going through ISO I

really

feel like his posting all game has been marked by so many nothing posts / irrelevant sidetracks, and exacerbating arguments. Basically all of his d1 posts sort into these and his d2 was better, but he was so away from the game as to make it hard to tell. He also picked up way more in short reply & question snipes at players but

not really solving.

He never responds again to points he makes, seeming content to make the posts, but also sit back and let anyone else take the wheel. I'm Having trouble gleaming anything from his big reads post

which I missed completely before, oops,

but maybe it isn't AI necessarily anyways. He waffled a lot on catboi yesterday but I feel like I'm seeing him still arguing at them after expressing a probable townread. 935 he says the "so many trains you've jumped on" comments aren't about calling that scummy, just noting it down, but like. Why say it then.

[catboi]

I reread and strange is fine, I think

[catboi]

mafmen posted 935 because I was leading an attempted flashwagon on him and he was exasperated with me bouncing all over the place like a ping-pong ball yesterday. It's not really a scumtell. It was perfectly understandable for him to be sick of me hardcore tunneling then changing my mind every few days. It's been a really rough game for me.


I still greatly dislike the way frogs has pushed their scumreads but need to take time for myself to review.

[catboi]

The things I'm read from your greeting posts, catboi, are that 1. His early reads were weak, even for the beginning of day 1, but 2. His real seeming emotionality and 3. Sometimes implausible theories look like town and not scum behavior respectively.
I think I've had a difficult time engaging with emotional quality arguments in particular so far, given how subjective they are and all. I know it is more

difficult

to conjure true-seeming emotions as scum, but in the same way you've argued that scum Val likely wouldn't argue for play he thinks is mechanically wrong, I think scum greeting could have had this reaction, for real, too. He tries to push for Igor, coasting on others' dislike of his posts, and is met with a pr claim. As scum, he knows the setup now. Outlining strategies for the other, potentially totally newbie, town pr is easy enough for him to do and try for towncred, and I know I considered him town at the time. When Val is put in the game and begins really explosively arguing with he and implosion, I think it's reasonable for scum to actually have deep seeded belief about what the mechanically correct route is, actually be upset by Val's debate style, and three, be annoyed that they're not being read as town for what they think they should be being reads as town for. There's also that MafMen and implosion are fighting Val here too, and it isn't for a page or two that the dust settles and Val gets a town read. Scum greeting doesn't have a reason to not get into the argument here, imo.
It's a similar situation with his reaction to your VT claim. Greeting went into this day talking about being unsure of the setup, Igor starts admitting to interesting lies, and then you vote him and say that he's lied again. Greeting might fully think that policy limming for lies there is good, and he might fully think that it'll be more convincing to others (because the atmosphere was more anti igor at the time he agreed with you).

And that the only player who can corroborate Igor's story is the JK, by coming out.

I don't think he's made not scum by his reactions here, and that his reasoning for pushing Val and Igor isn't strong, and that it's really convenient for scum if these players are limmed. I do not think his reads have improved through the game and I think there's a logical line from his more odd posts and theories to scum motivation.

Revisiting this. I again think this is an instance of

forcing

a case where frogs talks about how all these things

could

be reasons why Greeting is scum but never actually explains why they are

more likely

to make greeting scum.

[StrangeMatter]

I agree with what Thynhith said up there! I'm unsure of a lot of the same people and most suspicious of Igor and Mafmen. I think based on Igor's quick vote they likely aren't

both

scum, but either is possible? Again, don't really agree with the reasoning Mafmen brought up that Igor's just too obvious to be maf, since so many of us are inexperienced in here. Placing a vote here for now.

VOTE: igorsprite

I don't really get this. Why does the number of players dictate how valid what Mafmen (assuming Too Scummy to be Scum here) said?

[Micc]

Votecount 3.01

frogsfrogs (1) -

igorsprite

MafMen (1) -

frogsfrogs

Not Voting (5) -

Val89, StrangeMatter, MafMen, implosion, catboi

With 7 players alive it takes 4 votes to eliminate.

The deadline for Day 3 is in (expired on 2021-11-22 09:10:00).

[Val89]

I've finished reading through D1 through the lens of the new stuff I know today that I didn't know yesterday; to wit:

• -Greeting was town
  -Despite the fact it was a reasonable assumption made both myself and catboi, and possibly others, made Pseudo/SM is not the JK; Implosion is.
  -Frogs or MafMen is the Mafia Roleblocker (I do also understand that from the perspective of others, I am also a possible candidate for the Roleblocker)

...and having done so, I think MafMen looks like the clear favourite here.

Firstly, frogsfrogs.

None of the new information makes frogsfrogs look worse to my eyes, at least as far as D1 goes. In fact, I think the confirmation that Greeting was town makes him look even better:

I really thought Greeting and Val were both town arguing from different experience but this has absolutely spiraled now. :S

Honestly I consider the derail to be doing more arguing about Greeting vs Val right now. I don't think Greeting proposing to self hammer makes him look more scummy and I don't think it says anything about Val.

The context for the second quote there was Thyn coming in in between and saying "Focusing on me atp would be derailing town. I would advise everyone to look at Val/Greeting more carefully." I don't think scum, of either variety, would avail themselves of an oppotunity there to pull attention away from 'Greeting vs Val' when they know that was going to result in a mislim. Much better to follow Thyn's advice and keep attention on our little scrap, divide the town and get a wagon going on one or the other of us, and I think that would be a play that would be obvious to any scum no matter how new they were. Of course, that

IS

exactly what MafMen does - attacks me for what eventually transpires is a difference in prefered terminiology, and then; after the self-hammer threat, pivoting to throwing shade on Greeting. On a re-read, it looks very much like he is trying to play both sides of the argument there, while frogs was fairly quick to call us TvT, and move way from what could have been an easy mislim, particulary with the self-hammer threat, and one that most likley would have made me look very bad going into D2 - a move that I think was obviously anti-scum now, in retrospect.

On the other hand, MafMen does not come off so well. I start with post 100.

i think my wagon was pretty pure so im personally dealing with a poe of margot, implosion, and frogsfrogs
theres for sure atleast one wolf in that comp if not two, but im not 100% confident in saying my wagon was all green

This looks rather backwards, to me. I can't understand how you get a feeling that there are X number of scum on your wagon, and it looks like MafMen is trying to say he thinks there was at most one, and THEN arrive at a PoE from that. Perhaps this is a playstyle thing, but how does one get a sense that a wagon, any wagon, is 'pretty pure', and then come up with a PoE from that, without evaluating the slots on it first?

I also note something else of interest:

also why is he more likely to be scum?
while irrational his thought process is genuine

This is a follow up to mafman saying he initial placed his vote on me because he thought I was misrepresenting Greeting, but he realised that he agreed with me that what they were doing is harmful. I say this is part of that 'playing both sides', because he is still trying to push at me here, but note what he says about Greetings thought process: it

is

genuine. Not it 'looks' genuine, it is. Clearly, that proved to be true, but the only way MafMen could have known that then was if he already knew Greeting was town. Was this a subtle scumslip that went unnoticed in the heat of the argument?

I need to look through D2 as well before I make up my mind (and I really am dreading rereading that shitshow - I think stopping to make this post might well just be an excuse to delay doing so) given I've learnt my lesson as far as unchallenged assumptons go, but I am certainly leaning towards MafMen currently.

[Val89]

My gut check hip fire read is that Val + MafMen just isn't a thing, at all, and end of day yesterday makes me feel like frogs/mafmen isn't, either, because frogs was very willing to jump that vote

Looking back at frogs's iso it's not the strongest thing in the world, but mafmen reacted with exasperation/disbelief at frogs suspecting him, he didn't really push back and kept townreading frogs and i feel like he'd more likely distance from a partner?

Here is the other thing, I concur with the assement that frogs/Maf is isn't a thing either, and I got the same sense through my reread of D1 that they were unaligned also. I struggle to see a partner at all. It ain't catboi, that's for sure. I know distancing is a thing, but, given that we are all basically in agreement that finding the Roleblocker today is basically a town win, does a SM goon really go and throw a FoS at their RBer? I don't think so. That leaves me, and my own alignment and the fact I'm not scum with frogs is the only damn thing I've known for sure this entire game. So, I can't see a partner for frogs here, and that alone makes me want to flip MafMen.

Greeting, look at MafMen trying to say you/Val was scum theater and tell me if you think that's a theory a townie really has?

I know this was a question to a slot no longer with us, but I am asking myself the same question now. The answer, and the above, leads me here.

VOTE: MafMen

[Val89]

Someone check my work here, please.

MafMen can only be town in the following circumstances:

{Frogs, Val} are the scum team (with either as the RBer)
{Val!RB, SM!Goon}
{Val!RB, Catboi!Goon}
{Frogs!RB, SM!Goon}
{Frogs!RB, Catboi!Goon}
Or, it's a double-goon set up, and we are being lied to by Igor.

There are no other combinations I've missed there, have I?

[StrangeMatter]

Sorry if I haven't really been saying much, I've been trying to read into both MafMen's and Frog's ISO.

Also, I realized that no-kill on means I think I have some information I think happened with the night kill. I'm certain I was the target tonight and the gamble worked out in our favor, but I'm going to analyze that kill for a second. Catboi had repeatedly said that they believed I was Jailkeeper, and this may be a stretch but I don't think he performed the kill last night or suggested killing me tonight. I'm guessing, though the kill may have been on me to either 1. flip me and see if I was actually jailkeeper, and 2. Potentially have an easy way to point towards catboi.

[Micc]

MafMen has requested replacement.

[Micc]

Andante replaces MafMen.

[Andante]

AYYYYYY HELLO PEOPLE!!! HAPPY TO BE HERE Subbing into a town slot is also the best feeling ever! Umm I did get some quick reads off entrances, can someone just lay out for me real quick who has claimed what thus far? I'm not asking for people to claim, just wanna know what's out there

[Andante]

well, I'll just give yall my initial gut reads,
Margo's entrance, now Val, screams town to me, I don't see scum with the first posts like that
Igor's entrance, not good, felt scummy to me
frogs entrance is really good, that screams town
pseudo, now strange, is suspicious, but I don't think it's WITH Igor

and that's what I got

[Andante]

Also skimming my slot here, looks like I'm in for a good time!!

[Andante]

Sorry if I haven't really been saying much, I've been trying to read into both MafMen's and Frog's ISO.

Also, I realized that no-kill on means I think I have some information I think happened with the night kill. I'm certain I was the target tonight and the gamble worked out in our favor, but I'm going to analyze that kill for a second. Catboi had repeatedly said that they believed I was Jailkeeper, and this may be a stretch but I don't think he performed the kill last night or suggested killing me tonight. I'm guessing, though the kill may have been on me to either 1. flip me and see if I was actually jailkeeper, and 2. Potentially have an easy way to point towards catboi.

If strange ends up being a pr claim, ignore me, but this screams maf to me tbh. It looks like someone coached Strange, feels too "rehearsed" (idk the word I'm looking for)

like, it's just "I haven't been posting, I'm trying to read 2 people. My claim was believed so I'm town"

Usually people who are reading have something they bring up, not just "I'm trying to read 2 people" like, ok, if you tried to read mafmen and frogs, what did you find? I mean, obviously I can't clarify mafmen's thoughts, but that's something to consider, when reading, if you have questions on something just ask

[Andante]

I'm gonna wait for a recap from someone before I say more, I think Implosion is jailkeep, and yall had a no kill happen, I just need a recap please and if it's not soon I'll just be back tomorrow cause it's getting late

[StrangeMatter]

Sorry if I haven't really been saying much, I've been trying to read into both MafMen's and Frog's ISO.

Also, I realized that no-kill on means I think I have some information I think happened with the night kill. I'm certain I was the target tonight and the gamble worked out in our favor, but I'm going to analyze that kill for a second. Catboi had repeatedly said that they believed I was Jailkeeper, and this may be a stretch but I don't think he performed the kill last night or suggested killing me tonight. I'm guessing, though the kill may have been on me to either 1. flip me and see if I was actually jailkeeper, and 2. Potentially have an easy way to point towards catboi.

If strange ends up being a pr claim, ignore me, but this screams maf to me tbh. It looks like someone coached Strange, feels too "rehearsed" (idk the word I'm looking for)

like, it's just "I haven't been posting, I'm trying to read 2 people. My claim was believed so I'm town"

Usually people who are reading have something they bring up, not just "I'm trying to read 2 people" like, ok, if you tried to read mafmen and frogs, what did you find? I mean, obviously I can't clarify mafmen's thoughts, but that's something to consider, when reading, if you have questions on something just ask

Because I've done this exact play as scum before off-website, and just know from experience?

[Andante]

Sorry if I haven't really been saying much, I've been trying to read into both MafMen's and Frog's ISO.

Also, I realized that no-kill on means I think I have some information I think happened with the night kill. I'm certain I was the target tonight and the gamble worked out in our favor, but I'm going to analyze that kill for a second. Catboi had repeatedly said that they believed I was Jailkeeper, and this may be a stretch but I don't think he performed the kill last night or suggested killing me tonight. I'm guessing, though the kill may have been on me to either 1. flip me and see if I was actually jailkeeper, and 2. Potentially have an easy way to point towards catboi.

If strange ends up being a pr claim, ignore me, but this screams maf to me tbh. It looks like someone coached Strange, feels too "rehearsed" (idk the word I'm looking for)

like, it's just "I haven't been posting, I'm trying to read 2 people. My claim was believed so I'm town"

Usually people who are reading have something they bring up, not just "I'm trying to read 2 people" like, ok, if you tried to read mafmen and frogs, what did you find? I mean, obviously I can't clarify mafmen's thoughts, but that's something to consider, when reading, if you have questions on something just ask

Because I've done this exact play as scum before off-website, and just know from experience?

What? like, to me it doesn't feel like this natural way of thinking, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I read that, and it looks like you're more focused with "Hey I'm town!" instead of pointing out who is scum, like why even mention that you tried to read, when the point of your post was like "Hey tr me!!!" when I don't think anyone was really focusing on you there, feels odd to me