Open 837: Cop Killer - Endgame

[Not_Mafia]

VC 1.07

Galron (0)-

Enchant (1)-

Salsabil Faria

Pavowski (0)-

Almost50 (0)-

Roden (4)-

GuiltyLion, LicketyQuickety, DArby, Auro

Bingle (0)-

LicketyQuickety (1)-

Roden

GuiltyLion (0)-

Salsabil Faria (5)-

T3, mc esther, Pavowski, Bingle, Almost50,

DArby (1)-

Enchant

Auro (0)-

mc esther (0)-

T3 (0)-

Not Voting (2)-

Galron,

With

13

alive, it takes

7

to eliminate.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2021-12-07 10:00:00)

- Dec 7th 10:00 GMT

[mc esther]

"hmm, if somehow X slot were to be night killed, hmm hmm hmm, then my opinion could change..."

i liked auro's earlier posts on signalling -- not in that i really agreed with them, just in that he raised the issue and pushed it reasonably, without discussing how a scumteam might interpret it as a signal -- but this sort of post is the reason i asked pavowski to drop the issue.

[Salsabil Faria]

You're trying now to get him to talk about what he thinks scum!Bingle would or wouldn't do, which I don't see as all that meaningful or useful.

I asked because I want to know the thought process behind their comment which is creating WIFOM.

My questions are usually based on what I don't understand, others perfectly understand it or not isn’t my concern.

This is the perfect example of the kind of weird I expect from Scum!Salsa.

For example, Salsa voted someone multiple times without actually voting someone else in the game I played with them where they were Scum. So this sort of counting posts to get to page top is right in line with the same kind of weirdness IMO.

Weirdness is NAI for me.

22

23

24

25

Let's stop this please

Ok boss

Also I'm voting

Roden

iirr

@Mod

So you did see at as signaling. GOOD. Now ACT upon it.

Okay.

VOTE: Salsa

LOL!

the salsabil post where she acknowledges she's not scum hunting, lmao.

I'm struggling in this game tbh.

GL, what is your read on Salsa atp?

I think Salsas been real scummy and I have no issues with the wagon. I mainly haven't moved my vote because I didn't want to defuse my pressure on Roden, but seems like I scared him away from the game lol

I don't think I've been too forgiving? Who have I mistakenly forgiven in your eyes?

But the wagon shifts on me, so your one vote won't give that much of pressure on scum!

Roden

wagon.

GL, what is your read on Salsa atp?

I think Salsas been real scummy and I have no issues with the wagon. I mainly haven't moved my vote because I didn't want to defuse my pressure on Roden, but seems like I scared him away from the game lol

I don't think I've been too forgiving? Who have I mistakenly forgiven in your eyes?

Are you planning on killing your SRs with kindness or something? You're SRing both Roden and Salsa and seem to be very gentle with both of them.

That's why I asked if you ever are aggressive as Town. Which you didn't answer. And why are you not SRing someone who is giving a bogus meta read on you if you're not aggressive as Town?

P-Edit. Okay, so then my question still stands in why you are just acting flowery with your SRs. Does not make sense. Are these just tentative SRs or what?

If

GL

is scumreading me but not voting me

is an issue here, you also don't vote me yet but keep expressing multiple times or showing prove that I'm scum here and voting

Roden

instead...

UNVOTE: Roden

VOTE: LQ

[Auro]

"hmm, if somehow X slot were to be night killed, hmm hmm hmm, then my opinion could change..."

i liked auro's earlier posts on signalling -- not in that i really agreed with them, just in that he raised the issue and pushed it reasonably, without discussing how a scumteam might interpret it as a signal -- but this sort of post is the reason i asked pavowski to drop the issue.

It's straightforward how a scumteam would interpret it given they treat it as a signal. Further discussion would only make it harder for a scumteam to act on it.

[Auro]

If GL is scumreading me but not voting me is an issue here, you also don't vote me yet but keep expressing multiple times or showing prove that I'm scum here and voting Roden instead...

He didn't say that his problem was GL scumreading you and not voting you, but GL scumreading you and "treating you gently".

GL's scumreading Roden and also voting him - but LQ still has a problem with that read because of the "gentle treatment".

[mc esther]

It's straightforward how a scumteam would interpret it given they treat it as a signal. Further discussion would only make it harder for a scumteam to act on it.

there are at least two different types of signal, and it was not immediately obvious to me the precise interpretation that was being suggested. i am not the most oblivious person in the thread (though perhaps i am among the most oblivious!), enchant didnt even believe in signalling was a realistic possibility at all. i dont think keeping this sort of knowledge out of reach of those unable to fully grasp it is a futile gesture.

i dont really agree with that latter point either, but i'd rather talk about it day 2 if people still find it relevant.

[Auro]

I see what you mean and sure, there's quite a bit I'd like to further add which we can pick up again on D2.

Meanwhile, while you're here: has your recent convo with Pavowski helped develop your read on him?

Also:

posts like this are the ones that have me going "scum dont have to do this and im really not sure they want to". the evidence in-thread is that nobody wants to make these posts! it pings town over scum to me because i think it disproportionately benefits scum to leave those pages as much a black hole as possible. clarifying the general thrust of the argument and giving interpretations seems to be hurt the mafia's, idk, "abstract wincon" (a low-information gamestate) way beyond any towncred it might be worth; it would cost literally nothing to just, refuse to make any attempt.

Are all kinds of gamestate information detrimental to scum, though?
Scum do have to form reads, and project town through their dayplay. Wouldn't these inherently damage that abstract win-con anyway?

@GL: Do you agree with Esther's assessment: that summarizing and interpreting those pages of arguments hurts scum more than any towncred it may offer?

[mc esther]

Meanwhile, while you're here: has your recent convo with Pavowski helped develop your read on him?

not really, and im pretty disappointed with the way i handled it -- i shouldntve told him i dont know him until after i'd posed those questions, there was an opportunity to have scum!pavowski genuinely scared there and i kinda botched it. i find his last post pretty relatable, and i like that he owns his play and hasnt really tried to omgus anyone or otherwise discredit pressure on him, but eh, town can do that. i dont think he's a particularly good elimination today, i think almost50 and bingle were right to go salsa over pavowski.

[mc esther]

ebwop: "but eh, scum can do that"

[DArby]

Similar question to Esther: do you believe that scum!GL wouldn't have posted pro-town content as he did so far?

early game, fair question. to some extent, i cant know, and that's what makes online mafia so difficult. it'd be a very weak towntell if it stopped there.

my one main salient takeaway from the LQ/Roden bit is that both are making dubious claims on one particular front

Roden in 205 asks LQ if LQ thinks Roden "purposefully puts himself in this situation as scum". Again I think Roden is questionably taking credit for something that I feel I'm responsible for (early wagon/pressure on Roden). The logic of "why would I get wagoned as scum" isn't easy to understand from either a town/scum perspective, it's not clear what Roden specifically thinks that he did to get himself wagoned and whether that was intentional. However I have seen both alignments make the "I wouldn't be wagoned if I were scum here" claim, it's not something I feel comfortable reasoning about as AI but I certainly don't townread it, at best it's WIFOMy.

However, Roden has a point in 209 that LQ agreeing that scum!Roden might indeed intentionally "put himself in this situation" is also a bad take. Scum do not love early scrutiny, in almost any circumstance. I don't see LQ's logic in implying that this COULD be a scum plan - again, how and where did Roden even intentionally invite pressure on himself? Whatever Roden's alignment is, I'm sure he'd rather not be voted and rather not have to argue with people voting him.

I can see what LQ is saying in that LQ just kinda went along with an idea (being intentionally wagoned) that Roden put out there, but it's just such bad reasoning on both sides ("if I were scum, I wouldn't be wagoned") ("no, if you were scum, this might be your plan!!") that I'm having a hard time parsing why either player is taking any of the logic seriously.

posts like this are the ones that have me going "scum dont have to do this and im really not sure they want to". the evidence in-thread is that nobody wants to make these posts! it pings town over scum to me because i think it disproportionately benefits scum to leave those pages as much a black hole as possible. clarifying the general thrust of the argument and giving interpretations seems to be hurt the mafia's, idk, "abstract wincon" (a low-information gamestate) way beyond any towncred it might be worth; it would cost literally nothing to just, refuse to make any attempt.

Town lean post.

[DArby]

If I don’t understand something, I'll ask.

sure, but it feels like you're trying to drag Pav into a debate about claims that he didn't make or arguments that aren't important. From my impression of his original 440, all Pav was saying was that if he were to

know

that I am town, he would then think that Bingle's shade on me might indicate Bingle scum. However, as soon as you say something like that it can poison the well for NKA (a non-Bingle scum team might shoot me in an attempt to make Bingle look bad), so he wanted to clarify that he doesn't also think me being NK'd would

further

make him suspect Bingle. This is also basically exactly what he then clarified in 457 and 462.

You're trying now to get him to talk about what he thinks scum!Bingle would or wouldn't do, which I don't see as all that meaningful or useful. No one has been killed yet, it doesn't develop nor change my understanding of his original posts, and it isn't something that Pav would have different reasoning about whether he's town or scum. Hence, I don't understand how the line of questioning actually helps you sort Pav, it feels like busywork at best and at worst potentially trying to stir up "issues" with Pav that you can then use to push him.

Why are people sring this slot again?

[DArby]

I'm still waiting on Roden, D'Arby, Galron, Enchant & T3 to submit their lists

Oh hi. Sorry, just finished moving. Gimme a sec.

[DArby]

I really dislike GLs auro takes, btw. It reads like gl is calling auro scummy for being paranoid, which is p much the exact opposite of what someone being paranoid usually indicates.

Bings, could you please reword this?

[DArby]

GL, what is your read on Salsa atp?

I think Salsas been real scummy and I have no issues with the wagon. I mainly haven't moved my vote because I didn't want to defuse my pressure on Roden, but seems like I scared him away from the game lol

I don't think I've been too forgiving? Who have I mistakenly forgiven in your eyes?

Are you planning on killing your SRs with kindness or something? You're SRing both Roden and Salsa and seem to be very gentle with both of them.

That's why I asked if you ever are aggressive as Town. Which you didn't answer. And why are you not SRing someone who is giving a bogus meta read on you if you're not aggressive as Town?

P-Edit. Okay, so then my question still stands in why you are just acting flowery with your SRs. Does not make sense. Are these just tentative SRs or what?

Gut read there’s one scum between these two.

I’d be inclined to say it’s LQ.

[DArby]

P-Edit. Okay, so then my question still stands in why you are just acting flowery with your SRs. Does not make sense. Are these just tentative SRs or what?

I don't think I've been especially flowery? Like where do you see me doing that, specifically? I went in hard on Roden, he bailed, and Salsa has had enough attention that I haven't needed to push it myself. I'm satisfied with the gamestate currently, I don't need to do anything at the moment other than poke at peripheral slots like Auro

These posts right here:

This is over aggro. Sort of feels fake.

being fair to Roden, I basically challenged him in my last post to go at me, so I'm not surprised to see him bite back. What I'd like to actually hear from him though is why he thinks my behavior is more likely to come from me as scum than me as town, because that's what's missing

If I don’t understand something, I'll ask.

sure, but it feels like you're trying to drag Pav into a debate about claims that he didn't make or arguments that aren't important. From my impression of his original 440, all Pav was saying was that if he were to

know

that I am town, he would then think that Bingle's shade on me might indicate Bingle scum. However, as soon as you say something like that it can poison the well for NKA (a non-Bingle scum team might shoot me in an attempt to make Bingle look bad), so he wanted to clarify that he doesn't also think me being NK'd would

further

make him suspect Bingle. This is also basically exactly what he then clarified in 457 and 462.

You're trying now to get him to talk about what he thinks scum!Bingle would or wouldn't do, which I don't see as all that meaningful or useful. No one has been killed yet, it doesn't develop nor change my understanding of his original posts, and it isn't something that Pav would have different reasoning about whether he's town or scum. Hence, I don't understand how the line of questioning actually helps you sort Pav, it feels like busywork at best and at worst potentially trying to stir up "issues" with Pav that you can then use to push him.

In the first, you are giving Roden a pass. In the second, you are basically treating Salsa with kid gloves.

Like unless LQ is going off of meta (which would change the vibes), wasn’t this along the same vein of your tring me in our last completed game together? @LQ

[DArby]

I disagree with your assessment of both those posts, but I appreciate you referencing them. The first one in particular is definitely not a pass, I'm explicitly challenging him to explain why he thinks my play comes from me as scum

Lmao and he does GL does the exact same thing LQ scum reads him for in the response.

At the least I disagree with LQs assessment. At the most this is sitting as my 3rd highest SR rn.

[DArby]

You're trying now to get him to talk about what he thinks scum!Bingle would or wouldn't do, which I don't see as all that meaningful or useful.

I asked because I want to know the thought process behind their comment which is creating WIFOM.

My questions are usually based on what I don't understand, others perfectly understand it or not isn’t my concern.

This is the perfect example of the kind of weird I expect from Scum!Salsa.

For example, Salsa voted someone multiple times without actually voting someone else in the game I played with them where they were Scum. So this sort of counting posts to get to page top is right in line with the same kind of weirdness IMO.

Weirdness is NAI for me.

22

23

24

25

Let's stop this please

Ok boss

Also I'm voting

Roden

iirr

@Mod

So you did see at as signaling. GOOD. Now ACT upon it.

Okay.

VOTE: Salsa

LOL!

the salsabil post where she acknowledges she's not scum hunting, lmao.

I'm struggling in this game tbh.

GL, what is your read on Salsa atp?

I think Salsas been real scummy and I have no issues with the wagon. I mainly haven't moved my vote because I didn't want to defuse my pressure on Roden, but seems like I scared him away from the game lol

I don't think I've been too forgiving? Who have I mistakenly forgiven in your eyes?

But the wagon shifts on me, so your one vote won't give that much of pressure on scum!

Roden

wagon.

GL, what is your read on Salsa atp?

I think Salsas been real scummy and I have no issues with the wagon. I mainly haven't moved my vote because I didn't want to defuse my pressure on Roden, but seems like I scared him away from the game lol

I don't think I've been too forgiving? Who have I mistakenly forgiven in your eyes?

Are you planning on killing your SRs with kindness or something? You're SRing both Roden and Salsa and seem to be very gentle with both of them.

That's why I asked if you ever are aggressive as Town. Which you didn't answer. And why are you not SRing someone who is giving a bogus meta read on you if you're not aggressive as Town?

P-Edit. Okay, so then my question still stands in why you are just acting flowery with your SRs. Does not make sense. Are these just tentative SRs or what?

If

GL

is scumreading me but not voting me

is an issue here, you also don't vote me yet but keep expressing multiple times or showing prove that I'm scum here and voting

Roden

instead...

UNVOTE: Roden

VOTE: LQ

Hot take this is town.

VOTE: LQ

[DArby]

I feel bored, so I may decide to actually play this game seriously. (Sorry for those this may disappoint)

OK..

First "Dictatorian" Declaration:

I; King of thread and ruler of both Town & Mafia alike; have decided in all my mighty grace to

request

order all of my subjects and minions to each provide a 3-players list of their top TRs (NOT including self).

- You have 24 hours to comply.
- Once submitted you cannot alter your choices.

My liege, I bestow upon you my top three town reads:

1) MC
2) Enchant
3) Salsa

[mc esther]

uh yeah the salsabil townread is a bit of a hot take, do you think you can elaborate on it?

[DArby]

Spoiler:

What if both

Roden

and

LQ

are scums but not from same factions where scum!

Roden

wants to eliminate town first but scum!

LQ

targets other scum faction first!

I'm so talented

GL

seems town, also like

Bingle

(mostly based on vibes).

Hello hello old friends and new

VOTE: Roden

Didn't like his first post, I think using a past game to justify RVS vote is inherently a lil awkward

Also I like Galron for town

The structure of this first post: [vote, justification, townread] comes off as scummy to me

Why? Seems fine to me...

113

gets a

hmm

...

Also like

Pav

for 126, strike to me as genuine.

OH! I've just realized my new title has been implemented. I don't know how long it's been there but I didn't see it until NOW!

Townie post

How so?

Awkward post

Does that make it any more townie or scummy in your eyes? The implication would be that it's scummy, but here you then go voting a player that hasn't posted yet instead of a player attracting votes. Not a very satisfying reply

Because I only have one vote.

Makes me feel like Roden wanted to discredit my vote as non-confrontationally as possible

Ok, good to know we've never played before then.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

This is over aggro. Sort of feels fake.

But you didn’t put your vote instantly here which I expect from town you (kind of ig) but instead you waited (for something?) and then vote later.

UNVOTE: DArby

VOTE: LQ

you randomly moved your vote to a lurker after expressing interest in a wagon that you [apparently?] dont actually feel good about.

Not confident about voting

Roden

yet.

I didn’t see

Enchant

lurks this much.

yes, but what does "not confident about voting roden yet" actually mean? youve talked a little about why you dont want to vote roden (apparently you think me and enchant are better votes, apparently youre kinda sus of the people on the wagon in general). but why *do* you want to vote roden, what dont you like about their posting, which players do you think have reasonable cases against him? are you waiting on roden to defend himself, are you waiting on lickety to come out as more obviously townsided, what's going on with this "oh i kinda want to maybe" posting?

Why are you so hyper??

Roden

vs

GL

or

Roden

vs

LQ

seems off but in what way I'm not fully understanding yet (especially when

Roden

kept saying

LQ you're ignoring *the point* which you know what

but

LQ

kept saying they doesn’t is very???). So, I'm taking my time here.

Do you think you do something townie enough so I shouldn’t vote you?

Enchant

's lurking doesn’t feel townie because of meta reason, thus vote them.

VOTE: salsa
Salsa feels EXTREMELY different to how I remember town her.
There’s less emotion and content.

you randomly moved your vote to a lurker after expressing interest in a wagon that you [apparently?] dont actually feel good about.

VOTE: salsa

Rolled scum?

Hi why is me forgetting who I voted scummy

Forgets between *some minutes*? I don’t think so... Your eagerness of voting me is scummy.

You said

Roden

wasn't verge of the elimination but they're at E-3 that time and we have 4 scums.

I’m not going to do every post I like but I’ll do these and the last one I quoted. I don’t agree with the logic most of the time but it all feels tonally consistent. She’s not jumping on different ships, and her reads develop over time. I can disagree with play and still think they’re town.

[DArby]

I’ll also need time to develop my thoughts but LQ vs Roden, LQ va GL, and LQ vs Salsa don’t feel genuine collectively from LQ.

[mc esther]

when you talk about salsa's developing reads, im assuming youre largely talking about her lickety read. ill think on it, but it's not that convincing to me right this moment; and im really not sure it can outweigh the way she responded to me and t3 pressuring her, or her weird relationship to the roden wagon.

i do agree that there are question marks over lickety, i wasnt super explicit about it, but that was what i was getting at when poking holes in his comments about roden abandoning the thread.

[mc esther]

the biggest issue with scum!lickety to me is that the roden error is almost too blatant. surely scum check their facts a little better than that lmao.

[mc esther]

do lickety and roden know each other particularly well? would lickety reasonably know in advance that he could bait roden into that sort of an argument, or would lickety be afraid enough of roden reading him that he would want to push the miselim so recklessly?

[Galron]

VOTE: Salsa