Open 836: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[Fun and Games]

Fwiw i dont think scum bingle kills a50

~ skitter

[Bingle]

that's not datisi expressing suspicion of a50

thats datisi laughing at bingle townreading a50 for dumbtelling

I took that as Datisi scumreading that post and then bowing to my superior monkey reading ability, fwiw.

[VP Baltar]

Gamma flipping town meant that EOD1 wagons were T/S and not S/S - I remembered Gamma was very close to dying near end of D1 so I'm looking for who was trying to kill him then to save Darby.


this is the penultimate VC:



Dwlee votes Gamma ~25 minutes later making it 6-3.

A50 is the one who changes momentum by flipping his vote from Gamma -> Darby making it 5-4. 1861

This is probably the single most important part of D1.

You push back on A50 with 1867 berating him for vote-flipping but not providing any reasons.

Reading all the posts in the pages since A50's vote-flip, your post is the only pushback he gets for vote flipping.

Which makes sense in the context of scum!you seeing your mis-elim starting to walk out the door.

If you're town, that seems like an understandable analysis. I know it's incorrect, but I guess I can see where you'd be suspicious. Still think you could have answered my question at the start of the day instead of ghosting me or being obtuse about it.

In response to the point you're making, I don't think it'd be a wise play for me as scum there to make a stink about A50 ditching, especially since he is semi-erratic as a player. Seems like a play that is unlikely to get him to flip back to Gamma and the safer play would have been to just shut up or join the flop to a bus in a VP!scum world.

[Bingle]

Wait, why was Dwlee self voting?

[Fun and Games]

given how much you defended Ico/Darby throughout Day 1, I really doubt a voteflip to bussing Ico/Darby would work out for you at the eleventh hour

[Fun and Games]

Wait, why was Dwlee self voting?

he replaced NM

[Bingle]

Oh, right. NM never started playing in this game.

[Fun and Games]

Not_Mafia would be receiving his third prod this day phase right about now. Instead, he's getting replaced.

The most just outcome!

I've never played a game with a mod I loved more

this is actually p funny if you're scum with NM hehehe

[Fun and Games]

which kind of makes sense imo because if skitter's push on dwlee was on a townie I think you just sheep her and let her kill dwlee for you

but since dwlee is mafia you are going to chainsaw us

[VP Baltar]

given how much you defended Ico/Darby throughout Day 1, I really doubt a voteflip to bussing Ico/Darby would work out for you at the eleventh hour

I defended Darby? I don't remember that.

I also wouldn't call it a defense or town read of ico so much as not really getting the case being made because most of it was vibe and meta based. At least that's how it was coming across to me

[Fun and Games]

Mostly think it can't be all the scum because I'm not that good.

fair enough

what makes you put iconeum in there?

Same reason for all of them. Lack of free flowing response to the game. More reactionary than active engagement. Ico is a tougher case because he has been busy and gone it seems

making excuses for Ico despite having him inside POE.

[Fun and Games]

Dats -- you still want to lim the Ico slot now that it's being replaced?

tries to use replacement as if it somehow washes away the sin

[Fun and Games]

I said "RVS-level" vote. I understand it wasn't a true RVS in the sense that it was a joke. You made what appeared to be a serious vote. But it was also on like page 6 of the game right when RVS was sort of finishing. The fact you hadn't moved your vote from that point strikes me as somewhat scummy regardless of Ico's alignment. Vote camping is much more likely to come from scum than from town, who are lacking knowledge on whether their votes are correct.

chainsawing SA and saying SA is scummy even IF ico flips red

[Fun and Games]

how sure are you on dunn being scum?

70%?

I'm interested in hearing from you if you think his play differs here from when he was scum with you on D1. Just feel like I've tried to give him opportunities to engage with me in a real way, and he's trying to end those as fast as possible to return to lurking. It's major bad vibes for me.

I feel better about yeeting there than most anywhere else. Sleepless has given me some bad vibes as well. I maybe feel like giving Gamma a pass for today because I can't say I have a great track record reading him.

I guess if my vote is needed on the Ico wagon to finish it, I'm not opposed, but it feels slightly too popular for ambiguous reasons to me.

weird as fuck soft defense of Ico-slot while pushing Dunn for weird reasons

[Fun and Games]

Um? That quote came when I unvoted. So you have timing mixed up pretty badly. You seem think it was:
Townread Gamma --> Vote Gamma for a counterwagon to Dunn
It was more like:
Weak read on Gamma -> Vote Gamma for counterwagon -> Realize my reasons for voting him didn't actually make him scum -> unvote and say I'm not really scumreading him anymore.

dawg, these posts are 12 hours apart.

That's a lot of thought development over a short period of time.

chainsaw continued

[Fun and Games]

I spent, what did you say 28 pages?, trying for Iconeum and was getting nothing. A Gamma wagon seemed more productive than continuing to waste my breath on what was turning out more and more to be a vanity Vote.

I mean, first, IDK if I'd call your play here "trying" to get an ICO yeet. I'll go back at somepoint and read your ISO to see how hard you were pushing, but it doesn't stand out in my mind as a concentrated push. As far as Gamma, again, we are talking about 12 hours you had your vote there. That's not exactly trying something new before going back to the same wagon you were on before.

Then you're massively underestimating my confidence in the read.

How confident are you that the Ico slot is scum? Give me a percent.

Iconeum pinged me for not directly answering Datisi asking his alignment. Then there was the overly self conscious "in before scumslip" post after the weird but admittedly relatable string of posts about not remembering how to play. The "did we roll t/t" post pinged again. Just feels like unnecessarily saying "I'm town".

Just to be clear, this is Sleepless' full case on Iconeum.

I went back through Sleepless' iso to see if he pushed on Ico, as he claimed, and the extent of it is asking a couple people what their read on Ico is, and then appealing -- to no one in particular -- something to the effect of "can we just yeet Ico now."

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sleepless Assassin

There's malarkey here. He may even be partners with a hypothetical Ico-scum. I don't buy his vote/unvote on Gamma when that was getting steam, and I can't tell you a single place he is seriously pushing outside of that.

If I can't get Dunn today, I think this is a good bet.

this is like the definition of a chainsaw defense

[VP Baltar]

Mostly think it can't be all the scum because I'm not that good.

fair enough

what makes you put iconeum in there?

Same reason for all of them. Lack of free flowing response to the game. More reactionary than active engagement. Ico is a tougher case because he has been busy and gone it seems

making excuses for Ico despite having him inside POE.

This is some serious bad faith.

Someone said ICO was busy with real life. Why would I not take that into account when what was pinging for me was lack of engagement?

[Fun and Games]

his is Sleepless' full case on Iconeum.

I'm legitimately surprised. I didn't know that

Feel free to elaborate if I'm missing something. What is your case on Ico/DArby?

What is your case on Ico/DArby?

To clarify, SA, I have read your ISO.

vp he's been scumreading ico since like his second post

~ skitter

First post actually.

vp is your issue that you don't think sa has sufficiently explained his reasonign?

~ skitter

That is what I'm stating at the moment. I also think he is blowing smoke about his Gamma vote.

If he is that confident in an Ico scumread, it seems like he should be able to tell me a bullet point case of why instead of telling me to read his iso.

And FWIW, there are exactly 28 instances of "ico" on SA's ISO.

Yes, but I implore everyone to go read his ISO and see how many of those are of substance or pointing out things with scum motivation.

So it changed? A minute ago your issue was that I haven't been pushing Iconeum

How are those different my guy? You did not push Ico. Which seems to be why you can't explain your case quickly.

Because it is not a real scum read.

Yes, but I implore everyone to go read his ISO and see how many of those are of substance or pointing out things with scum motivation.

I did. It's the one you quoted and the one I quoted.

Doesn't it seem odd to you to hang on to a scum read for 50 pages with no change based upon that?

I mean he does have other reads, i guess i'm just not convinced that the fact that he didnt reallh expound on the ico read makes him scum

Pedit ugh i think this is a tvt >.>
~ skitter

I've been pointing things out as they come up. His burst style posting made it rare, but my points are ones I truly believe in.

Lemme ask you this, who do you think has been pushing Ico more, you or Datisi?

His burst style posting made it rare, but my points are ones I truly believe in.

Why would Ico's posting style affect your ability to push him?

In both Micro 880 and Open 740, SA was town and quite liberally cast his vote around early in the game.

really long chainsaw defense of Ico by going after SA

he just keeps going and going

which is p weird cuz Ico is inside VP's POE at the beginning and he presents literally no reason to townread Ico.

[VP Baltar]

Dats -- you still want to lim the Ico slot now that it's being replaced?

tries to use replacement as if it somehow washes away the sin

Also extremely bad faith interpretation when the actual point of my question was to gauge Datisi's feelings on Darby. In a town!Datisi world, I trust his reads.

[Fun and Games]

Mostly think it can't be all the scum because I'm not that good.

fair enough

what makes you put iconeum in there?

Same reason for all of them. Lack of free flowing response to the game. More reactionary than active engagement. Ico is a tougher case because he has been busy and gone it seems

making excuses for Ico despite having him inside POE.

This is some serious bad faith.

Someone said ICO was busy with real life. Why would I not take that into account when what was pinging for me was lack of engagement?

sure you can make the excuse ico is busy irl but that's not a reason to townread him.

you saying "these 4 people are susp because of ___ but Ico is townier than the rest cuz he might be IRL busy is just terrible"

[Fun and Games]

You literally don't present any reasons to townread Ico but you are very invested in making Datisi re-evaluate on the slot and you are very invested in pushing people who are not Ico.

That's not me being bad faith that's literally what you did.

[VP Baltar]

As far as this chainsaw stuff, you're just posting things you already said and acting like you're making new points. I found SA scummy, we tussled and I ended up townreading him out of it. So complete bullshit to call it chainsawing for Ico. His camped vote for 50 pages looked sketchy.

[VP Baltar]

sure you can make the excuse ico is busy irl but that's not a reason to townread him.

Show me the post where I used the words Ico is town.

[Fun and Games]

mmmm? what case?

General case is that SA put a vote down on Ico initially with somewhat flimsy reasoning, then never really moved it for a full 50 pages.

He wasn't pressing Ico with questions, or actively trying to persuade others to see what he was seeing in Ico. He would merely make an occasional request to other players for their opinions on Ico, in an open ended way, with little follow up.

The one time he did depart from this Ico vote was to vote Gamma as that wagon gained a little steam, but then 12 hours later, SA unvotes Gamma and says he didn't really find him scummy. It was back to Ico at that point.

When I pressed SA about this and asked him to quickly tell me his reasons for voting Ico, he repeatedly told me to "read his iso", which I argue is a sign that SA knows his reasoning was flimsy and he never really believed in his vote or thought it through. If you're voting someone that long, you should be able to rattle off your reasons quickly.

Now, contrast this vote camping from SA with his most recent town games (which admittedly are a couple years old). SA in those games votes 4+ people in D1 scenarios.

Am I being unreasonable here? I think not. I believe SA is scum, and potentially may be buddies with Ico!scum.

This is you chainsawing SA.

It's a terrible chainsaw because you think he might be buddies with Ico!scum (which leaves you an opening to re-eval on Ico when SA flips town)

BUT YOU NEVER VOTED FOR ICO LOL.

Like it makes NO sense to me for you to hard shove SA for pushing Ico!scum and getting mad no1 is listening to your SA!case when Ico is like sitting there and a viable elim.

How do you believe Ico!scum is being pushed by SA!scum but you are happy to vote for Dunnstral or Gamma?

[VP Baltar]

You literally don't present any reasons to townread Ico but you are very invested in making Datisi re-evaluate on the slot and you are very invested in pushing people who are not Ico.

That's not me being bad faith that's literally what you did.

I never said Ico was town! I said I thought the wagon was not well explained. Those are not the same thing. Ico was very null for me