Open 837: Cop Killer - Endgame

[Bingle]

Their push on Roden looks bad in retrospect

Why?

What about it makes it bad instead of just wrong?

[Bingle]

where the take was just, factually wrong? i still havent made up my mind about it.

Generally speaking, I'd say that outright lies about the game state are NAI as a whole, because there's not a lot of scum motivation in doing something so blatant. It is likely that LQ thought Roden was thread dodging to duck heat.

The question then becomes: is it likely that town LQ would be wrong there and scum LQ wouldn't? Is it likely that there's a genuine misread of the situation?

[Bingle]

We were fighting?

No, but there were clearly two camps: vote you and vote Salsa. It doesn't have to be dramatic for there to be disagreement to read into.

[Auro]

Auro - Having doubts here since I'm probably TRing Bingle and GL more at this point.

Why does TRing Bingle mean doubt over my alignment?

[DArby]

What are you trying to achieve

Miselimination... duuh!

lol

VOTE: Salsa

This also sorta feels like Darby is trying to ride out their Town cred knowing they won't get any Sus from the hammer. Like, when someone claims their about to be mislimmed and your reaction to that is to LOL!hammer them it kinda leave a lot of WIFOM in the air.

A) Yeah, i was taking advantage of my town cred and

B) The post wasn’t in and of itself why I hammered.

[Galron]

Also that you started off serious then went to joking. That felt unnatural to me.

Fair enough I guess. I'm not sure why addressing something that felt off out of the gate and then engaging in friendly banter is scummy, but you and Auro saw something apparently.

[Galron]

Town:
Roden
mc esther - Townie sounding points.
Guilty Lion - Not seeing GL as Scum here. Their push on Roden looks bad in retrospect, but I'm guilty of the same thing.

Town Lean:
Bingle - Good thoughts, feel like he's actually trying to sort me.
DArby - Probably Town, but there was something that was bugging me about them near EoD. Would have to look and try and figure it out. Town Lean.

Null:
Enchant - IDK, higher activity? That's probably NAI
Pavowski - Null. Why are People TRing Pav? Is it based on pre-flip or what?
Auro - Having doubts here since I'm probably TRing Bingle and GL more at this point.
T3 - Don't really feel anything here.

Scum Lean:
Galron - I guess I have to have a Scum Lean somewhere. And I didn't really like that the were stiff at the SoD 1. Someone else made that comment and I went back to look and I can definitely see it. Their reaction to it was bad too.

VOTE: Galron

Did you figure out what the deal was with DArby? You went back and looked at my stuff (or remembered it?) and forced a scum lean out of it?

I'm townreading Pav based on the signalling discussion yesterday and the early discussion about one kill today. What do you think of that stuff from Pav?

With Enchant you have higher activity and then say that may be NAI. If it is AI, where does that place Enchant?

What do you think of all of T3's reads being meta reads?

[GuiltyLion]

So either everyone targeted A50 or only Team Fire did

and somebody else got doc's and frozen

, right?

Seems more likely monkey got tripled up

I don't think this can have a drawback for asking publicly given how obvious a question it is, so:

@mod: Are death flavors indicative of who made the kill? If they are, what are the specific flavors for a Fire Kill, an Ice Kill, a Doc Kill, and an all three kill?

NM should be able (have to actually) answer that because this is an open.

Yes death flavours are indicative. Ice Mafia is

Frozen

, Fire Mafia is

Incinerated

and a CPR Doc kill is

Shocked

. If all three were to target a player, the fire and ice mafia kills would cancel out and the CPR Doc would kill the player. I will add this to the rules section.

Pav - how did you know the Ice Team's flavor was "frozen" specifically? I don't recall seeing that anywhere prior to N_M editing the posts.

[GuiltyLion]

Not particularly interested in GL/Auro atm.

Bingle, why are you less suspicious of me here than you were yesterday?

I'll post a full reads update for ya in a sec - I'm feeling a little scatterbrained right now since I need a full reset in light of Salsa/Roden town. I'm definitely thinking my reasons for townreading Pav might have been Bad.

[GuiltyLion]

Btw GL, now you know my RVS vote really was just RVS. It really shouldn't have taken a Cop check to figure that out, here we are I guess.

Dude, my problems were always far more with your 112 than your 14. A RVS tell isn't going to work a lot of the time, but I thought I made it clear what I really disliked was how you tried to dismiss me without actually engaging with me. And I think the Cop check was probably more because you went MIA for most of the day rather than me pressuring you at the beginning.

[Not_Mafia]

VC 2.01

Galron (1)-

LicketyQuickety

Enchant (2)-

mc esther, DArby

Pavowski (0)-

Roden (0)-

Bingle (0)-

LicketyQuickety (2)-

Roden, Enchant

GuiltyLion (0)-

DArby (0)-

Auro (0)-

mc esther (0)-

T3 (3)-

Bingle, Galron, Auro

(E-2)

Not Voting (3)-

Pavowski, GuiltyLion, T3

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to instantly eliminate.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2021-12-14 19:00:00)

- Dec 14th 19:00 GMT

[GuiltyLion]

i think basically everyone's established this, but to be explicit so that nobody suggests anything daft later (and also to get auro's thoughts): pavowski's town. there was literally no reason for him to signal for a kill on guiltylion, guiltylion was townreading him all day; and the observation that scum would be too paranoid to make that sort of comment if not as an intentional signal rings pretty true. while start-of-day speculation on the night targets was a pretty bad idea, i think it makes a lot more sense from "townie with weird hang-ups about night" than "scum who went straight for the same speculation that had him under suspicion day one".

I don't think I agree with this anymore. I didn't like people suggesting Pav's D1 posting was an attempt to signal, I thought it clearly wasn't, but I do think his opening D2 post is really bad, I'm wondering if he straight up scum slipped by revealing knowledge of the "frozen" flavoring for Ice Team kill. I don't think the suspicion on Pav D1 was potent enough to make him feel threatened (he didn't pick up a lot of votes/wagon pressure), and if his scum!persona is to act oblivious/dump-thoughts-in-thread then his D2 play is entirely consistent with that.

I'm not sure he's who I'd most want limmed today but I absolutely feel worse about him now than I did yesterday

[GuiltyLion]

LQ's reads list this page is surprisingly shallow.

Ig just meta feels more sound with T3 than Enchant.

T3 is complaining about the same things he typically does but Enchant feels slightly different. It feels like Enchant is more try-hard in a more forceful way.

Tho take my meta reads with a grain of salt.

+1 to both these points. I don't like that LQ readslist (his reason for scumreading Galron over everyone else in his null pile feels a bit inscrutable to me, especially since T3/Enchant are the ones picking up votes), and I agree with DArby that I prefer Enchant over T3 here. I've recently played with both Enchant/T3 as scum in White Flag #834 and Situation Room respectively, and from a vibe check perspective Enchant feels more scummy to me than T3. That's just initial gut feel though, I'll try to elaborate more in my readslist in a sec

[GuiltyLion]

Also that you started off serious then went to joking. That felt unnatural to me.

Why does that feel scummy to you? My impression is usually the opposite, that scum feel more comfortable joking earlygame and don't want to come across too tryhard at gamestart. I certainly pick up suspicion for being Too Serious in earlygame across a lot of my games. Also, where specifically do you think Galron is joking in an unnatural way?

[GuiltyLion]

GL, can I get a tl;dr with only conclusions you've drawn from your analysis at your earliest convenience if you live through the night?

ah I'm rereading a few things and realizing I might have misunderstood this - did you want a tl;dr on 575 specifically? In my head I thought you were asking for a general readslist here. regardless, readslist coming in a sec, and maybe I'll try to touch on this there. it won't be in tl;dr form though

[GuiltyLion]

blah my parents are in town and just got to my place mid-typing-up-enormous-reads-post, so it'll have to wait. I've saved it as a draft but now can't seem to find it - does anybody know where posts that are saved as draft go?

[GuiltyLion]

ah nvm found it we all good. I'll be back with big reads post later today

[Enchant]

Hello.

I don't have meta.

It's statement.

[LicketyQuickety]

Their push on Roden looks bad in retrospect

Why?

What about it makes it bad instead of just wrong?

Seemed like the justification for the original vote was very thin but GL never votes anyone else.

[LicketyQuickety]

Auro - Having doubts here since I'm probably TRing Bingle and GL more at this point.

Why does TRing Bingle mean doubt over my alignment?

It doesn't necessarily, but I can't help but feel like there is some sort of triangle between you Bingle, and GL. And I guess I just think the idea that you are all Town isn't super strong.

[LicketyQuickety]

B) The post wasn’t in and of itself why I hammered.

Why did you hammer then?

[LicketyQuickety]

Did you figure out what the deal was with DArby? You went back and looked at my stuff (or remembered it?) and forced a scum lean out of it?

No, not yet.

I'm townreading Pav based on the signalling discussion yesterday and the early discussion about one kill today. What do you think of that stuff from Pav?

I never really understood the signaling thing. IDK, I don't think Pav talking about the kill is really Scummy myself. Pav is just Null to me since I don't really get much AI stuff from his posts.

With Enchant you have higher activity and then say that may be NAI. If it is AI, where does that place Enchant?

IDK which is why it's NAI.

What do you think of all of T3's reads being meta reads?

It's nothing I haven't seen from T3 before. IDK, maybe he does it more as Town? Not sure really. That's not the reason I'm Null reading him though. It has more to do with his post just seemingly not leading anywhere.

[LicketyQuickety]

Also that you started off serious then went to joking. That felt unnatural to me.

Why does that feel scummy to you? My impression is usually the opposite, that scum feel more comfortable joking earlygame and don't want to come across too tryhard at gamestart. I certainly pick up suspicion for being Too Serious in earlygame across a lot of my games. Also, where specifically do you think Galron is joking in an unnatural way?

Do you want me to pull quotes?

[Pavowski]

So either everyone targeted A50 or only Team Fire did

and somebody else got doc's and frozen

, right?

Seems more likely monkey got tripled up

I don't think this can have a drawback for asking publicly given how obvious a question it is, so:

@mod: Are death flavors indicative of who made the kill? If they are, what are the specific flavors for a Fire Kill, an Ice Kill, a Doc Kill, and an all three kill?

NM should be able (have to actually) answer that because this is an open.

Yes death flavours are indicative. Ice Mafia is

Frozen

, Fire Mafia is

Incinerated

and a CPR Doc kill is

Shocked

. If all three were to target a player, the fire and ice mafia kills would cancel out and the CPR Doc would kill the player. I will add this to the rules section.

Pav - how did you know the Ice Team's flavor was "frozen" specifically? I don't recall seeing that anywhere prior to N_M editing the posts.

I saw that A50 was "incinerated" and assumed that was a fire team kill

[Pavowski]

Like even before NM clarified the kill flavors, the post starting D2 and announcing the NK said he was incinerated.

I mentioned it because it struck me as odd that "incinerated" would be the flavor, but we don't wanna discuss the NK so I'll leave it at that