Open 837: Cop Killer - Endgame

[GuiltyLion]

ah that's right, whoops. I need coffee, I didn't think to check who made those current votes despite knowing Roden doesn't SR LQ anymore

[GuiltyLion]

I think the reasons for wagoning him are dumb

What do you think the reasons for wagoning him are?

[T3]

He’s trying to pick fights and has weird reasoning.

[Bingle]

i dont actually believe you (scum shot roden, at the time the number one scumread in the game? really?), but we have seven days on the deadline and another perfectly good wagon, so im willing to indulge this a little. it probably goes without saying that nobody should counterclaim this.

if you believed roden was scum so strongly that you were willing to vig him over it, why werent you voting him yesterday?

Eh, ridiculous scumkill target makes it more likely, not less, to be true. We’ll see if real doc vigs there tonight in any case and there’s no reason it can’t be solved tomorrow anyway.

[GuiltyLion]

He’s trying to pick fights and has weird reasoning.

Those aren't my reasons for voting Lickety. I think the level of depth to his reads has been shallow, his actual engagement within those fights is more grounded in trying to appear town along with WIFOMy self-defense rather than actual genuine pressure/scumreads, and also I really dislike his attempt to excuse low effort today due to being in the limpool

[Bingle]

T3 because he doesn't metabad as scum

Just realized this could be interpreted as mean-spirited. What I meant is that town!T3 uses meta and is fallible. Scum!T3 really just TMI's when he meta reads someone because he almost always meta reads townies as town to get town cred for himself. The one time I've seen him meta read somebody as scum, it was his scum buddy lol. When scum!T3 pushes somebody as a scum read and they're a townie it's almost never a meta read.

This is just my own analysis of his playstyle though, it isn't 100% accurate. But I can usually at the very least trust his town reads no matter his alignment.

Metabad usually means that all meta is bad and thus unusable, and I thought it was funny that you were offering the read that “someone is town because they only complain about meta as town.”

I appreciate the elaboration, though, it makes more sense and let’s me feel better, though not good, about T3.

I will point out that spewing someone as town is less viable in multiball because scum are still actively looking for scum. (At least, competent ones are)

[Bingle]

He’s trying to pick fights

He is? I could have sworn I literally just asked him why he wasn’t doing that. Weird.

[mc esther]

#793 through to #798 regarding the "picking fights" thing

[mc esther]

i dont think even galron even agrees with that interpretation tbh (seeing as he never voted over it or even commented on it), im pretty sure im the only person who considers it a significant part of "the case"

[Pavowski]

EBWOP - not that it really matters IMO, but to be clear Pav/mc Esther should be flipped in my post above. So mc esther gave the L-1 vote, not Pav

I disagree that it doesn't matter in principle if not in particular. I often find the order of the votes interesting.

But in this case I still think MC is town so flipping us in the order is irrelevant

[DArby]

Does that strike you as a crazy leap in logic?

If the fire team kill was "incinerated", what would you expect the ice team kill to read as?

Mildly refrigerated?

Hahahahaha

[DArby]

VC 2.01

Galron (0)-

Enchant (2)-

mc esther, DArby

Pavowski (0)-

Roden (0)-

Bingle (0)-

LicketyQuickety (2)-

Roden, Enchant

GuiltyLion (0)-

DArby (0)-

Auro (0)-

mc esther (0)-

T3 (4)-

Bingle, Galron, LicketyQuickety, Auro

(E-2)

Not Voting (3)-

Pavowski, GuiltyLion, T3

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to instantly eliminate.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2021-12-14 19:00:00)

- Dec 14th 19:00 GMT

I'd appreciate it if I Wasn't Hammered
esp because i've been gone for the entire day and most of yesterday

That's normal for you, though?

[DArby]

This is bizarre behavior

All you have to know is that Town don't sheep me.

Technically not true. I sheeped you mildly til ELo in our last game and we won.

[T3]

VC 2.01

Galron (0)-

Enchant (2)-

mc esther, DArby

Pavowski (0)-

Roden (0)-

Bingle (0)-

LicketyQuickety (2)-

Roden, Enchant

GuiltyLion (0)-

DArby (0)-

Auro (0)-

mc esther (0)-

T3 (4)-

Bingle, Galron, LicketyQuickety, Auro

(E-2)

Not Voting (3)-

Pavowski, GuiltyLion, T3

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to instantly eliminate.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2021-12-14 19:00:00)

- Dec 14th 19:00 GMT

I'd appreciate it if I Wasn't Hammered
esp because i've been gone for the entire day and most of yesterday

That's normal for you, though?

?

[DArby]

So either everyone targeted A50 or only Team Fire did

and somebody else got doc's and frozen

, right?

Seems more likely monkey got tripled up

I don't think this can have a drawback for asking publicly given how obvious a question it is, so:

@mod: Are death flavors indicative of who made the kill? If they are, what are the specific flavors for a Fire Kill, an Ice Kill, a Doc Kill, and an all three kill?

NM should be able (have to actually) answer that because this is an open.

Yes death flavours are indicative. Ice Mafia is

Frozen

, Fire Mafia is

Incinerated

and a CPR Doc kill is

Shocked

. If all three were to target a player, the fire and ice mafia kills would cancel out and the CPR Doc would kill the player. I will add this to the rules section.

Pav - how did you know the Ice Team's flavor was "frozen" specifically? I don't recall seeing that anywhere prior to N_M editing the posts.

Tbf I kinda pieced that together myself.

I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone to figure that out tbh.

What do you think of Pav's reaction?

Inclined to say town. Willing to change but have a POE I'd like to get through first.

[DArby]

VC 2.01

Galron (0)-

Enchant (2)-

mc esther, DArby

Pavowski (0)-

Roden (0)-

Bingle (0)-

LicketyQuickety (2)-

Roden, Enchant

GuiltyLion (0)-

DArby (0)-

Auro (0)-

mc esther (0)-

T3 (4)-

Bingle, Galron, LicketyQuickety, Auro

(E-2)

Not Voting (3)-

Pavowski, GuiltyLion, T3

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to instantly eliminate.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2021-12-14 19:00:00)

- Dec 14th 19:00 GMT

I'd appreciate it if I Wasn't Hammered
esp because i've been gone for the entire day and most of yesterday

That's normal for you, though?

?

In the games I've played with you (completed), you've been gone for long periods of time in almost all those games. I think that's a weird thing to say because a) I don't think you were threatened to be hammered and b) you're using your playstyle as a defense to avoid getting said "hammer". It feels like you're coming across as annoyed for something normal and not threatening.

The comment was a literal responce to "i've been gone for the entire day and most of yesterday".

[T3]

Yeah, that’s fair.
I was annoyed because I was being wagoned

[Galron]

i dont think even galron even agrees with that interpretation tbh (seeing as he never voted over it or even commented on it), im pretty sure im the only person who considers it a significant part of "the case"

If you're talking about Lick JAQing off or sea lioning, I generally don't think that that's damning, but that's only if the protagonist is doing it as an effort to sort people. I'm kind of on the fence on whether Lick is/was doing this in bad faith. That and I had thought earlier this phase that he wouldn't be who I'd want to lim today, were why I didn't vote him. I wanted to go back and see why I had thought he wouldn't be a good lim primarily and just hadn't/haven't done that yet.

[Galron]

UNVOTE:

We've got lots of time and I'm not sure I think T3 is scum any longer.

[Galron]

i dont think even galron even agrees with that interpretation tbh (seeing as he never voted over it or even commented on it), im pretty sure im the only person who considers it a significant part of "the case"

If you're talking about Lick JAQing off or sea lioning, I generally don't think that that's damning, but that's only if the protagonist is doing it as an effort to sort people. I'm kind of on the fence on whether Lick is/was doing this in bad faith. That and I had thought earlier this phase that he wouldn't be who I'd want to lim today, were why I didn't vote him. I wanted to go back and see why I had thought he wouldn't be a good lim primarily and just hadn't/haven't done that yet.

But I would lim him over T3 at this point if it came down to it. He's interacted with enough players that I think his flip would be useful. Problem is, as someone said (auro?), this is such a high powered game that a miz could be close to being fatal.

[Galron]

I have my eye on Guilty Lion. While that reads list was pretty comprehensive and good, I was getting odd vibes from him earlier, and I don't know that that's been redeemed by what should be an obvtown post.

[GuiltyLion]

Galron, what do you think of my points on Lickety? It's more than just the JAQing

[Enchant]

The more game goes, the more i dislike T3.

[Not_Mafia]

VC 2.03

Galron (0)-

Enchant (2)-

DArby, Roden

Pavowski (0)-

Roden (0)-

Bingle (1)-

LicketyQuickety

LicketyQuickety (4)-

Enchant, Auro, Pavowski, mc esther

(E-2)

GuiltyLion (0)-

DArby (0)-

Auro (1)-

Bingle

mc esther (0)-

T3 (0)-

Not Voting (3)-

T3, GuiltyLion, Galron

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to instantly eliminate.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2021-12-14 19:00:00)

- Dec 14th 19:00 GMT

[Galron]

Galron, what do you think of my points on Lickety? It's more than just the JAQing

LicketyQuickety - I think my biggest issue with Lickety is that at times it feels like he's going through the effort of telling the thread how he is thinking, instead of just actually thinking. 210 ("I feel you are being manipulative, but if you explain I will move on"), 252 (the unprompted addition of "I'm not scumreading Auro because I expect him to do this as scum"), 402 (why is he saying both that T3's read is weird but also that he agrees with it??), 404 I hadn't noticed this previously but using "until" in that post when presumably he meant "unless" is an odd mistake, 415 feels super stiff and 416 as Pav called out is really dubious because he's basically inviting Roden to be townread if Roden backs off his LQ push. That mindset feels a lot more likely to come from someone who wants to defuse the fight rather than someone who actually thinks Roden might be scum.

I don't know that telling everyone what he's thinking rather than explaining why he's thinking that isn't inherently scummy. I think that could be done as a method of gaining reactions in a genuine manner. It's not uncommon, and I do it myself sometimes. As that relates to his reads list, I would agree that it is more likely to come from scum than from town. If you're going to do a reads list where you put your thoughts on the slot down, it should be more developed than a bunch of vagaries. Otherwise it comes across as forced, and it's not all that useful. I don't find 415 stiff per se but maybe a bit labored if that makes any sense, but it does show a thought process of some sort, which is something I look for in that type of post. 416, on the other hand, is a silly post and looks like it's there to trap Roden in a Catch-22. If Roden moves his vote it's "Roden moved his vote due to pressure, and that's scummy," and if Roden doesn't move his vote it's, "Roden didn't reevaluate like I asked, and that's scummy." In 804 he actually makes a good point that just because Roden is conftown that doesn't mean Roden's scum hunting is any better than anyone else's, but he does neglect to state that maybe it should carry more weight because we all know it's not coming from a biased perspective, or at least a scum-biased perspective.

So in all that, and I think I missed a couple of things, you did a good job of pointing some things out, but it doesn't move the needle a whole lot for me wrt Lick.

As for my read on you, even moderately skilled players can pull out facts with a little analysis, so same thing, it doesn't lead me to anything more than give you a few townie points. And I should add that if we weren't in multi-ball I'd probably give it more credence than I am right now. (Please don't think I'm calling you a moderately skilled player because from what I've seen from you I think you're one of the top players on the site -- I would put you in the highly skilled category.) I'm thinking now it may just me being a bit paranoid because early on I was picking up pocketing vibes from you.