Holiday Dance Party ---- Game Over

[Andante]

but I'm also shipping catboi + kittens. that NEEDS to happen

[Titus]

I have a particular read on you as town as well, of which means that I don't believe your reads are particularly strong in this particular game in the case that you are town.

btw Titus, I specifically want to address this a bit further so it doesn't read as a sort of discredit on you, and because you are quite possibly the one player on the entire website I have the most games with out of anybody, so I've had plenty of opportunities to assess your play from all four angles (TvT, TvS, SvT, SvS).

the games where I feel like you are at your strongest are when you are able to confidently place players as town and directly work with those players. My experience with your towngame is that you view things in a very different way that has very mixed results, so you often run into these problems where you have very incorrect scumreads and it's very hard to pivot you off of them in those cases since finding common ground is next to impossible in a lot of cases.

You and Taly are the two players in this playerlist that I would strongly classify as enablers for town, and the way you're playing in this game indicates that you aren't playing around this philosophy, especially in a setup where I strongly believe that finding correct townreads is infinitely more productive to a town wincon than finding correct scumreads.

That's fairish and partially due to where I'm at and how I came in.

Most of my townreads already townread each other.

It's just the game seems to be pushing towards eliminating lurker slots than the scum.

We aren't eliminating the Datisi's and catboi's. So even if I push for the fences, we still won't lim someone who should go to endgame.

If my townreads actually asked about compromises or pushed someone of their own or said something besides effort = town, there would be something to talk about.

This is the best play, barring something else from happening.

What is your theory about how this goes? You never said.

[Andante]

someone comment on my ideas for pairs!! I love them!!!

[Titus]

Gentlemen
Galron
Datisi*
Catboi *
Marcistar *
RH9


Ladies
Prism NorwegianboyEE
GuiltyLion
Cabd Something_Smart *
angielily *
Alyssa the Lamb
Malakittens *


Let me ship some more people.
catboi + Malakittens - obvious reason. strongest ship!
marci + angie - they both want to be partners yet people were all "NOOOO" I ship it
dats + SS - both are hard to read, I think they'd be funny trying to work together - perfect ship
Galron + Lion - Galron + Lion = PERFECT
RH9 + Alyssa - We're not leaving Alyssa behind!


gg I solved the pairs. now lets make them happen

You pair off mala, angie and Lion before EE? Why? No obvious ship stuff.

These pairings are horrible. I'm starting to think my first instinct on Adante was right.

[Andante]

These pairings are horrible.

Wow. I loved them. I think they'd be really good!!

[Andante]

and no, I don't tr norwee, the IC stuff was odd, I don't see it coming from town

[Titus]

I do feel a bit better about Alyssa after this conversation. I probably reacted emotionally to that idea. It's still horrible but town can have horrible ideas but Alyssa's fear of Titus was precisely why I wanted to pair with Taly in the first place.

[Titus]

and no, I don't tr norwee, the IC stuff was odd, I don't see it coming from town

Be specific.

[Titus]

and no, I don't tr norwee, the IC stuff was odd, I don't see it coming from town

Be specific.

[Andante]

like, ok, I understand "I don't wanna say yes till I've read" but it's also like, IC vs anyone else is different, just say "I'd rather not be with an IC" I don't see the issue of being with IC as town, not like IC is gonna walk out on you lol

[Andante]

and no, I don't tr norwee, the IC stuff was odd, I don't see it coming from town

Be specific.

No thanks.

[Titus]

and no, I don't tr norwee, the IC stuff was odd, I don't see it coming from town

Be specific.

No thanks.

Ok enjoy your scumlean.

[Andante]

and no, I don't tr norwee, the IC stuff was odd, I don't see it coming from town

Be specific.

No thanks.

Ok enjoy your scumlean.

Ok and I care why?

[Andante]

Like, I know I'm town, nothing anyone says changes that. I just have to find scum. which is easier said than done

[GuiltyLion]

I don't want to relitigate that but seeing your ISO I don't see much mention of the fact that it's equally bizarre for scum-Cabd to do. Like you really think he lacks game sense to the point where he would make up a read like that and assume it wouldn't look weird.

I would feel this way even if I didn't know the slot was green-- I feel like the only possible answers are that either he really did think catboi was uber towny for some reason, or he was doing some kind of reaction test that got interrupted by his replacement. Neither of these are heavily alignment indicative.

Just my $0.02.

I appreciate that you need to write this post regardless of your alignment and it's a solid effort but it doesn't move the needle for me. I disagree that it's equally bizarre for scum-Cabd to do that, if he had the intent to "groom" catboi as a potential dance partner (pun intended) then it easily would make sense for him to write that post. The backlash was strong and immediate but I don't think we can say scum!Cabd would have necessarily anticipated the backlash ahead of time.

The only town explanation I'd entertain would be the reaction test angle, but the way he was defensive on being called out on it (280/285 - I think if he were town reaction testing he'd be confident in explaining himself later) and then mysteriously alluded to "one or two things" (296) that contributed to this read - without actually naming what those things are - makes me less inclined to believe it was specifically a reaction test.

[RH9]

Gentlemen
Galron
Datisi*
Catboi *
Marcistar *
RH9


Ladies
Prism NorwegianboyEE
GuiltyLion
Cabd Something_Smart *
angielily *
Alyssa the Lamb
Malakittens *


Let me ship some more people.
catboi + Malakittens - obvious reason. strongest ship!
marci + angie - they both want to be partners yet people were all "NOOOO" I ship it
dats + SS - both are hard to read, I think they'd be funny trying to work together - perfect ship
Galron + Lion - Galron + Lion = PERFECT
RH9 + Alyssa - We're not leaving Alyssa behind!


gg I solved the pairs. now lets make them happen

Why are Norwee and STD being left out? Did you forget them?

[RH9]

Gentlemen
Galron
Datisi*
Catboi *
Marcistar *
RH9


Ladies
Prism NorwegianboyEE
GuiltyLion
Cabd Something_Smart *
angielily *
Alyssa the Lamb
Malakittens *


Let me ship some more people.
catboi + Malakittens - obvious reason. strongest ship!
marci + angie - they both want to be partners yet people were all "NOOOO" I ship it
dats + SS - both are hard to read, I think they'd be funny trying to work together - perfect ship
Galron + Lion - Galron + Lion = PERFECT
RH9 + Alyssa - We're not leaving Alyssa behind!


gg I solved the pairs. now lets make them happen

Why are Norwee and STD being left out? Did you forget them?

Never mind, STD is with Titus. But still what makes Mala better than Norwee.

[RH9]

Gentlemen
Galron
Datisi*
Catboi *
Marcistar *
RH9


Ladies
Prism NorwegianboyEE
GuiltyLion
Cabd Something_Smart *
angielily *
Alyssa the Lamb
Malakittens *


Let me ship some more people.
catboi + Malakittens - obvious reason. strongest ship!
marci + angie - they both want to be partners yet people were all "NOOOO" I ship it
dats + SS - both are hard to read, I think they'd be funny trying to work together - perfect ship
Galron + Lion - Galron + Lion = PERFECT
RH9 + Alyssa - We're not leaving Alyssa behind!


gg I solved the pairs. now lets make them happen

Why are Norwee and STD being left out? Did you forget them?

Never mind, STD is with Titus. But still what makes Mala better than Norwee?

EBWOP

[GuiltyLion]

This in particular is a huge red flag to me because LLD is a player that is good at channeling confidence and pressure onto other slots and is a player I definitely wouldn't say is lying about being willing to leave the dance if she suspects she has a scum partner. I have particular thoughts I will get into a bit later about her scuffle with GuiltyLion, but what I strongly suspect is happening is that the scumteam are attempting to take advantage of this likely incorrect read to either pocket her and use her as an avenue to get their own agenda across (effectively poisoning her contribution to the game) or even to just get her to remove herself entirely from the game.

I vibe with a lot of this post, I kinda want to zoom in on this part in particular.

I did wonder at the time if LLD was wrongTown and one of, or both, of marci/galron were aiming for this well-poisoning effect. That's definitely a narrative I can imagine, and LLD then proposing to pair herself with Taly also felt like it might be a Town Move.

The thing I'm struggling with now is a couple of things:

1. If LLD town, Titus is really souring me on that slot. Every post she's made in her catchup pertaining to me has been uncharitable and explicitly meant to make me look as bad as possible. I know Titus can be obstinate, and maybe I'm naive but I fail to see what it is in my posts - especially early game pre:LLD scuffle - that would have her So Convinced that I'm scum. She should have enough experience with me to at least doubt her read I feel, but she's projecting utmost confidence. To me it feels more like Titus sees we're already anti-spewed and she's just hoping to muscle me out of the game so I can't do damage later. Why do you think Titus' play is town here?

2. I kinda feel like marci's recent posting has been better - vibe/tonewise it's been a lot closer to the town!marci I know, and I don't see a super compelling explanation for why scum!marci offered to pair with me ultimately, unless she just wants to get one of LLD/me out of the game and figures that's the most utility she can get out of her slot. if marci is town I'm not sure what to make of Galron's Yolo Propose if he's scum - I do think it looks bad on him but I don't see what he gains from it if LLD is also town, other than to maybe poison whatever other pair marci winds up in. and if marci is scum, is Galron ever scum with her as well? I'm not sure how I feel myself, kinda just want more thoughts from you on that.

I feel you've got some good theories about how scum are playing in the abstract sense but I don't know I follow how this bit in particular fits together with your conclusions on the alignments of marci, galron, LLD, does that make sense? could you maybe walk through which combination of scum!Galron, scum!marci, scum!LLD you see as best explanation for that whole scenario?

[GuiltyLion]

Seat of knowing and all that.
But i think Prism's posting up to 42 has been pretty transparently town.
What don't you like?

Norway I wanna ask you this

I actually like a lot of Prism's posting but the thing is when I reread it again and tried to reset myself, it's a lot of stuff I agree with but not a lot of stuff she could never post as scum

what do you think she posted that you would say is not possible or not likely to be a scum post?

[Alyssa The Lamb]

This in particular is a huge red flag to me because LLD is a player that is good at channeling confidence and pressure onto other slots and is a player I definitely wouldn't say is lying about being willing to leave the dance if she suspects she has a scum partner. I have particular thoughts I will get into a bit later about her scuffle with GuiltyLion, but what I strongly suspect is happening is that the scumteam are attempting to take advantage of this likely incorrect read to either pocket her and use her as an avenue to get their own agenda across (effectively poisoning her contribution to the game) or even to just get her to remove herself entirely from the game.

I vibe with a lot of this post, I kinda want to zoom in on this part in particular.

I did wonder at the time if LLD was wrongTown and one of, or both, of marci/galron were aiming for this well-poisoning effect. That's definitely a narrative I can imagine, and LLD then proposing to pair herself with Taly also felt like it might be a Town Move.

The thing I'm struggling with now is a couple of things:

1. If LLD town, Titus is really souring me on that slot. Every post she's made in her catchup pertaining to me has been uncharitable and explicitly meant to make me look as bad as possible. I know Titus can be obstinate, and maybe I'm naive but I fail to see what it is in my posts - especially early game pre:LLD scuffle - that would have her So Convinced that I'm scum. She should have enough experience with me to at least doubt her read I feel, but she's projecting utmost confidence. To me it feels more like Titus sees we're already anti-spewed and she's just hoping to muscle me out of the game so I can't do damage later. Why do you think Titus' play is town here?

2. I kinda feel like marci's recent posting has been better - vibe/tonewise it's been a lot closer to the town!marci I know, and I don't see a super compelling explanation for why scum!marci offered to pair with me ultimately, unless she just wants to get one of LLD/me out of the game and figures that's the most utility she can get out of her slot. if marci is town I'm not sure what to make of Galron's Yolo Propose if he's scum - I do think it looks bad on him but I don't see what he gains from it if LLD is also town, other than to maybe poison whatever other pair marci winds up in. and if marci is scum, is Galron ever scum with her as well? I'm not sure how I feel myself, kinda just want more thoughts from you on that.

I feel you've got some good theories about how scum are playing in the abstract sense but I don't know I follow how this bit in particular fits together with your conclusions on the alignments of marci, galron, LLD, does that make sense? could you maybe walk through which combination of scum!Galron, scum!marci, scum!LLD you see as best explanation for that whole scenario?

that's very hard for me to do since I pretty much always look for the WHAT and then fit the WHO to it... and then verify the most crucial part of it and refine from there

the thing about this particular playstyle is that it's often far more valuable in generating correct townreads rather than correct scumreads, since this process often rules out specific players from potentially being scum entirely if you're at least in the ballpark of being correct, yet you often need the details to be correct in order to generate a solve that has enough correct scumreads to be able to win the game (or to generate enough correct townreads to be able to easily PoE it out)

I'm not at the stage where I can definitively tell you roughly who I expect to be scum in this exchange, all I can really tell you is that if I'm on the right track, the reads I mentioned in that thread are more likely to be correct than not

[GuiltyLion]

or RH9-Mala? idk there's other options, main thing I'm optimizing for is I'd just not want LLD/Galron

Did it ever get answered why GL had such a coniptition about LLD + Galron?

Leaving this by itself bc important

it should be pretty obvious in context? LLD was on the defensive after I had suggested it was scummy for her not to accept marci's proposal, and that I'd be willing to be left behind or vig marci if it meant Cabd slot was flipped. Out of nowhere, Galron proposed to LLD and claimed he wanted her to endgame. Does that not seem bizarre to you?

Nope. LLD protects her townreads just as much as she nails scum. Ftr, I have never seen LLD be wrong when she was this confident.

my quote unquote conniption quote unquote was specifically about Galron proposing, not LLD or her townreads? I'm not following at all how this reply addresses my point that

Galron's

decision to yolo propose is bizarre.

[GuiltyLion]

that's very hard for me to do since I pretty much always look for the WHAT and then fit the WHO to it... and then verify the most crucial part of it and refine from there

the thing about this particular playstyle is that it's often far more valuable in generating correct townreads rather than correct scumreads, since this process often rules out specific players from potentially being scum entirely if you're at least in the ballpark of being correct, yet you often need the details to be correct in order to generate a solve that has enough correct scumreads to be able to win the game (or to generate enough correct townreads to be able to easily PoE it out)

I'm not at the stage where I can definitively tell you roughly who I expect to be scum in this exchange, all I can really tell you is that if I'm on the right track, the reads I mentioned in that thread are more likely to be correct than not

somehow this is both fair and unsatisfying

I think as long as you're on the same page of Titus not being an endgame tier townread then it's probably fine for now

[GuiltyLion]

I'll eat my hat if GL is town.

oh lol I hadn't even seen this

better start doing some research on which hats are safest to eat

[GuiltyLion]

Purple prose is overly embellished language that serves little meaningful purpose in a piece. It’s characterized by strings of multisyllabic words, run-on sentences, and blocks of unyielding text. Universally discouraged by all manner of writing experts, purple prose slows the pace, muddles the content, and can lose the reader entirely.

Titus, you of all people should know that I write multisyllabic words, run-on sentences, and unyielding blocks of text in every town game. Not even half a year ago I was in Situation Room writing some epic monster walls

I agree it's bad writing but mafia takes enough of my time as it is I'm not gonna sit here and do much serious editing of my posts unless it's like The Most Important Post In The Game

I'm actually somewhat confident that if someone did a detailed analysis of my word count / dense post frequency in town games vs scum games there'd be a decent correlation. I can't wall as effectively as scum (I'll do it occasionally but can't as consistently)