Open 840 - Guardians of the Fortress [Game Over]

Open Games (Use a known setup). Signups Here
Forum rules
User avatar
Aristeia
Aristeia
she/her
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Aristeia
she/her
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6037
Joined: July 17, 2021
Pronoun: she/her

Post Post #75 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:09 am

Post by Aristeia »

well of course we will read everyone else b4 we leave

we can resolve our game first if you would like that?
User avatar
Tanner
Tanner
he/him
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Tanner
he/him
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1468
Joined: April 10, 2020
Pronoun: he/him

Post Post #76 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:13 am

Post by Tanner »

you know i don't like rushing decisions.
your eyes on the city.
User avatar
implosion
implosion
he/him
Polymath
User avatar
User avatar
implosion
he/him
Polymath
Polymath
Posts: 13497
Joined: September 9, 2010
Pronoun: he/him
Location: zoraster's wine cellar

Post Post #77 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:24 am

Post by implosion »

hello!

I think this setup is 100% fated to have approximately two people who go somewhere early and then a bunch of people being annoyed at them.
User avatar
Lukewarm
Lukewarm
Rising Star
User avatar
User avatar
Lukewarm
Rising Star
Rising Star
Posts: 8333
Joined: March 21, 2021

Post Post #78 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:27 am

Post by Lukewarm »

In post 54, Tanner wrote:i said i want to go to the keep specifically so i can get voted - i'm unsure why you're showing this compassion considering that?
Because getting locked out of your top pick is a bit annoyng, and that is what happened to me last game. I am not sure why you wanting to get voted should make me less inclined to letting you into the keep. Am I missing something?

I believe that the best strat for the Keep is to collectively, meaning everyone not just the people in the keep, to chose who we think is most likely to be scum, and then give that player the choice of who they are going to vote between the other two.

So, this mini games will play out one of a few ways:

The scum is given vote power, and we always win.
I am given vote power, and I am trying to read the other two (functionally the same as being the IC in the gate)
The other townie in the keep is given vote power, and I have to town it up. I am at least somewhat confident in my ability to do that.

You being in there with me versus someone else does not drastically change any of those I don't think?
I have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!

They're super opinionated and make a lot of assumptions, they're also pretty clumsy with word choice - Bell
Luke, respect for your scumgame has gone up massively - Hectic
User avatar
implosion
implosion
he/him
Polymath
User avatar
User avatar
implosion
he/him
Polymath
Polymath
Posts: 13497
Joined: September 9, 2010
Pronoun: he/him
Location: zoraster's wine cellar

Post Post #79 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:30 am

Post by implosion »

Tanner wrote:hm. my hope was to bring two scummiest people to the keep with me. if we're right on them both being scum, scum will be forced to move one of them, which would greatly help us. of course, wifom is a thing, and this whole operation rests on the assumption that people will collectively townread me, so we'll see.
This kind of logic that centers oneself is, I think, not the most useful in this setup.

The prima facie "right thing" in this setup imo is to collectively sort all 9 players from town->scum and then put the 3 towniest, 3 middle, and 3 scummiest in the same place. If you are town and think you will be very obviously town, it's a bad idea to put yourself with two very scummy people; better to put those two scummy people with a third scummy person. This way even if we're wrong about one of those three being scum, we'd need to be wrong about
two
of them in order to be wrong about the person that moved out of that area having to be scum. There's even the off-chance we get a day one win, though it shouldn't be counted on. If you think you will be super town, and join two scummy people, if we're wrong about just one of those two people then it's easy for scum to swap them out and muck with us.

I am quite excited to be able to actually talk about the setup productively (since the other time I played this setup I drew scum).
User avatar
implosion
implosion
he/him
Polymath
User avatar
User avatar
implosion
he/him
Polymath
Polymath
Posts: 13497
Joined: September 9, 2010
Pronoun: he/him
Location: zoraster's wine cellar

Post Post #80 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:34 am

Post by implosion »

In post 28, Lukewarm wrote:I don't think that people should be locking in right away

VOTE: keep

So probably don't do that lol
This is mildly towny.
Lukewarm wrote:Scum would want to make sure they end up in different places, so "I'll go where ever is left" seems townie I think.
I'm pretty sure I talked like that as scum when I played the setup. I think this is more personality-based than alignment-based. But jumps themselves can absolutely be indicative. Actions speak louder than words in this setup.
User avatar
Lukewarm
Lukewarm
Rising Star
User avatar
User avatar
Lukewarm
Rising Star
Rising Star
Posts: 8333
Joined: March 21, 2021

Post Post #81 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:34 am

Post by Lukewarm »

In post 79, implosion wrote:since the other time I played this setup I drew scum
I did not realize that there was another old running of this game - might look at that at some point, but that is not a thing that will happen today lol
I have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!

They're super opinionated and make a lot of assumptions, they're also pretty clumsy with word choice - Bell
Luke, respect for your scumgame has gone up massively - Hectic
User avatar
Lukewarm
Lukewarm
Rising Star
User avatar
User avatar
Lukewarm
Rising Star
Rising Star
Posts: 8333
Joined: March 21, 2021

Post Post #82 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:44 am

Post by Lukewarm »

In post 54, Tanner wrote:(on that note, lukewarm, we played together in the mini normal that tris modded.)
Oh, your dats lol.

That same game is my only experience with Ari as well.
I have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!

They're super opinionated and make a lot of assumptions, they're also pretty clumsy with word choice - Bell
Luke, respect for your scumgame has gone up massively - Hectic
User avatar
Tanner
Tanner
he/him
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Tanner
he/him
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1468
Joined: April 10, 2020
Pronoun: he/him

Post Post #83 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:45 am

Post by Tanner »

@lukewarm, i'm trying to brute-force my own vote through. more specifically, my idea was me + two scummiest people. the fact that you jumped into the keep yourself meant that either you're volunteering yourself to be one of the scummy people (unlikely) or that you have no interest in me making that plan a reality. if the latter is the case, that means i have no reason to volunteer to the keep anymore because my strategy is gone. so the "tanner won't be able to go to the keep then" is completely misplaced; i
already
don't want to go to the keep. and the fact you didn't connect that feels kiiiind of like scum more worried about keeping up appearances than a townie critically thinking about what i'm saying.

@implosion, the main point about my strategy was the fact that it would give us an easy win in one game, and allow us some breathing room to win another one more easily. i never intended to treat the swap as an investigation tool. especially not in a 3v6 game where there are a lot of people i don't have good ways of reading, i'm flat out assuming that any poe or collective readslist we come up with on day one won't be very good.
your eyes on the city.
User avatar
implosion
implosion
he/him
Polymath
User avatar
User avatar
implosion
he/him
Polymath
Polymath
Posts: 13497
Joined: September 9, 2010
Pronoun: he/him
Location: zoraster's wine cellar

Post Post #84 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:47 am

Post by implosion »

A brief summary of the other run of this setup and lessons learned from it from a scum perspective, at the risk of muddying the waters:

1) as I said, actions speak louder than words. I saw an opportunity to justify a jump that forced all three locations to have 2 town 1 scum in that game and I took it, and I got a lot of flak for it, correctly so.
2) I still won my minigame because it was the Gate and the cleared townie was more or less too far into wifom to listen to the soft majority of the rest of the town who I think would have preferred to lim me.
3) We were set up to win the keep too, but we ultimately lost it as well as the wall because the info from me flipping and from backward speculation about what scum would have done was extremely powerful.

Basically the main thing to keep in mind is, as this game goes forward, it's more important than most setups to be willing to change your reads. If you're willing to change your reads in response to new information it makes the scumteam's lives
drastically
more complicated.
User avatar
VP Baltar
VP Baltar
he/him
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
VP Baltar
he/him
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 17476
Joined: November 3, 2008
Pronoun: he/him

Post Post #85 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:48 am

Post by VP Baltar »

Can I get a link to the scum PT the other time this ran? I'd like to read the thought process there.
YOUR AD HERE
User avatar
Aristeia
Aristeia
she/her
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Aristeia
she/her
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6037
Joined: July 17, 2021
Pronoun: she/her

Post Post #86 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:49 am

Post by Aristeia »

i like implos strategy

also if we r throwing the three scummiest into the same spot, it doesnt actually matter which spot we throw them into.
User avatar
imaginality
imaginality
Restricted Townie
User avatar
User avatar
imaginality
Restricted Townie
Restricted Townie
Posts: 2728
Joined: May 29, 2008
Location: Christchurch, NZ

Post Post #87 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:50 am

Post by imaginality »

Hi all.

I'm slightly suspicious of Aristeia because second vote in a location is convenient for scum to ensure they're split (if the first vote is town). Making a big deal about planning to vote Tanner makes less sense from scum though as it more or less locks them into swapping one of them.
In post 15, Tanner wrote: hm. my hope was to bring two scummiest people to the keep with me. if we're right on them both being scum, scum will be forced to move one of them, which would greatly help us.
That seems like a strategy that would work for any location, not keep-specific?
In post 39, Toogeloo wrote:I'll go where I'm told to go. The game looked like an interesting exercise in ways to play out MeLo. I have absolutely zero preference in where I end up.
Not caring where you go is good but 'where I'm told to go' seems a little passive, letting others direct rather than aiming to influence the discussion. Are you typically passive as town?
In post 43, Toogeloo wrote:I highly doubt both Luke and Ari are scum both going Keep this early. Either T/T or T/S. Two scum going to the same location right away doesn't make any sense to me.
Agreed, it seems like it would limit scum's options a lot to lock two scum in so soon.
In post 46, Lukewarm wrote:I would not be opposed to Toog coming to the keep with me an Ari. They are the only two people on this player list I have ever played with, so might help us read each other ?
I like this, though remember we share the same game thread so people can weigh in on the other minigames.
I think being willing to have a player who knows you at the same location as you is towny though since they will have power to vote or not vote you.
In post 59, Tanner wrote:hm. i would say aristeia is still >rand town. scum!aristeia is basically forced to either flat-out lose one minigame, or use the night swap on me. and the second might not always be possible. it feels like limiting options for scum for... zero gain.
She could use the night swap on her to appear towny in whatever minigame she's swapped into. That seems like a reasonable play as scum? And also could just be hoping Tanner doesn't actually end up in Keep anyhow.
In post 64, numberQ wrote:Have I played with anyone here before? I recognize a few names but I can't remember if those were games I modded or played in. Though maybe it's a moot point since idk if I'd be able to read them well even if I did have player experience with someone here.

So all that said, I'm fine not picking where I go. I have no real preference for which location I'm in.
I'm slightly suspicious of this very 'nothing' initial post.
@numberQ, any early reads?

-
Reminder to myself to figure out why post 72 seems interesting to me for some reason.
-

VP Baltar, what game were we in together?

P-edit: implosion's thoughts re how we divide ourselves up make sense. We can sort of still do that even with two players committed. The problem of course is getting consensus about who is most/least town!

Would it be useful if we agreed that the remaining players go somewhere another player nominates them to go? Might help with solving the final minigames once some of the nominating players have flipped?
User avatar
VP Baltar
VP Baltar
he/him
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
VP Baltar
he/him
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 17476
Joined: November 3, 2008
Pronoun: he/him

Post Post #88 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:50 am

Post by VP Baltar »

In post 84, implosion wrote:If you're willing to change your reads in response to new information it makes the scumteam's lives drastically more complicated.
Good news! I never know what the fuck I'm doing and everyone looks like scum in my paranoid brain!
YOUR AD HERE
User avatar
implosion
implosion
he/him
Polymath
User avatar
User avatar
implosion
he/him
Polymath
Polymath
Posts: 13497
Joined: September 9, 2010
Pronoun: he/him
Location: zoraster's wine cellar

Post Post #89 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:52 am

Post by implosion »

User avatar
Aristeia
Aristeia
she/her
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Aristeia
she/her
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6037
Joined: July 17, 2021
Pronoun: she/her

Post Post #90 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:52 am

Post by Aristeia »

actually it kind of does matter

i am wrong about that

but it is still nice to try :)
User avatar
VP Baltar
VP Baltar
he/him
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
VP Baltar
he/him
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 17476
Joined: November 3, 2008
Pronoun: he/him

Post Post #91 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:52 am

Post by VP Baltar »

In post 87, imaginality wrote:VP Baltar, what game were we in together?
Feel like we definitely played together many years ago. I couldn't tell you the game though. Definitely not saying I can read you, was just listing people I am pretty sure I've played with before.
YOUR AD HERE
User avatar
VP Baltar
VP Baltar
he/him
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
VP Baltar
he/him
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 17476
Joined: November 3, 2008
Pronoun: he/him

Post Post #92 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:52 am

Post by VP Baltar »

YOUR AD HERE
User avatar
Tanner
Tanner
he/him
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Tanner
he/him
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1468
Joined: April 10, 2020
Pronoun: he/him

Post Post #93 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:53 am

Post by Tanner »

implo's openness about the setup *feels* townie. have any of the players here also played in that run? if not, then i think there's no reason for implo to do this.
your eyes on the city.
User avatar
Tanner
Tanner
he/him
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Tanner
he/him
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1468
Joined: April 10, 2020
Pronoun: he/him

Post Post #94 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:56 am

Post by Tanner »

In post 87, imaginality wrote:That seems like a strategy that would work for any location, not keep-specific?

[snip]

She could use the night swap on her to appear towny in whatever minigame she's swapped into. That seems like a reasonable play as scum? And also could just be hoping Tanner doesn't actually end up in Keep anyhow.
sure, the "if two scum are here, they have to swap one of them" could work on any location. but my main point, again, is that keep is the only minigame where we need to find only one town to win. even if we're wrong on one of those scummy-looking people being scum, we don't have to spend energy sorting them out.

not if scum is forced to use their swap between the other two minigames.
your eyes on the city.
User avatar
imaginality
imaginality
Restricted Townie
User avatar
User avatar
imaginality
Restricted Townie
Restricted Townie
Posts: 2728
Joined: May 29, 2008
Location: Christchurch, NZ

Post Post #95 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:05 am

Post by imaginality »

Okay I see the added value of that strategy if it's on the Keep. Though it might be moot as Lukewarm and Ari have limited our options to apply it unless we strongly scumread either or both of them.
User avatar
Toogeloo
Toogeloo
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Toogeloo
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 8400
Joined: October 21, 2009
Location: Jusenkyo

Post Post #96 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:07 am

Post by Toogeloo »

In post 86, Aristeia wrote:i like implos strategy

also if we r throwing the three scummiest into the same spot, it doesnt actually matter which spot we throw them into.
Do you think Luke is town?
User avatar
Toogeloo
Toogeloo
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Toogeloo
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 8400
Joined: October 21, 2009
Location: Jusenkyo

Post Post #97 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:08 am

Post by Toogeloo »

In post 87, imaginality wrote:Are you typically passive as town?
I'm not a leader, but I am impulsive.
User avatar
Lukewarm
Lukewarm
Rising Star
User avatar
User avatar
Lukewarm
Rising Star
Rising Star
Posts: 8333
Joined: March 21, 2021

Post Post #98 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:10 am

Post by Lukewarm »

In post 83, Tanner wrote:@lukewarm, i'm trying to brute-force my own vote through. more specifically, my idea was me + two scummiest people. the fact that you jumped into the keep yourself meant that either you're volunteering yourself to be one of the scummy people (unlikely) or that you have no interest in me making that plan a reality. if the latter is the case, that means i have no reason to volunteer to the keep anymore because my strategy is gone. so the "tanner won't be able to go to the keep then" is completely misplaced; i already don't want to go to the keep. and the fact you didn't connect that feels kiiiind of like scum more worried about keeping up appearances than a townie critically thinking about what i'm saying.
I kinda locked into the keep before I read any of the posts made in game at that point.

I see your suggested plan, but I did not realize that you wanting to go to the keep was contingent on us all agreeing to go with it. I guess since the keep is my top choice, I kinda assumed you might still have it as your top choice sans-plan

If you don't want the keep anymore, then I will take back my take back in
I have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!

They're super opinionated and make a lot of assumptions, they're also pretty clumsy with word choice - Bell
Luke, respect for your scumgame has gone up massively - Hectic
User avatar
implosion
implosion
he/him
Polymath
User avatar
User avatar
implosion
he/him
Polymath
Polymath
Posts: 13497
Joined: September 9, 2010
Pronoun: he/him
Location: zoraster's wine cellar

Post Post #99 (ISO) » Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:11 am

Post by implosion »

In post 94, Tanner wrote:
In post 87, imaginality wrote:That seems like a strategy that would work for any location, not keep-specific?

[snip]

She could use the night swap on her to appear towny in whatever minigame she's swapped into. That seems like a reasonable play as scum? And also could just be hoping Tanner doesn't actually end up in Keep anyhow.
sure, the "if two scum are here, they have to swap one of them" could work on any location. but my main point, again, is that keep is the only minigame where we need to find only one town to win. even if we're wrong on one of those scummy-looking people being scum, we don't have to spend energy sorting them out.

not if scum is forced to use their swap between the other two minigames.
The flip side is that doing this means the remaining two locations are the ones that are harder for town to win.

I think there's almost no strategies that strictly increase town's EV from a random-choices perspective. I think there's mostly just strategies that are better or worse at leveraging different kinds of correct reads.

I want to call VP and Tanner town atm.
Locked