Open 840 - Guardians of the Fortress [Game Over]
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- Aristeia
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Aristeia she/herJack of All Trades
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- Tanner
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Tanner he/himMafia Scum
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- implosion
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implosion he/himPolymath
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hello!
I think this setup is 100% fated to have approximately two people who go somewhere early and then a bunch of people being annoyed at them.- Lukewarm
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Lukewarm Rising Star
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Because getting locked out of your top pick is a bit annoyng, and that is what happened to me last game. I am not sure why you wanting to get voted should make me less inclined to letting you into the keep. Am I missing something?In post 54, Tanner wrote:i said i want to go to the keep specifically so i can get voted - i'm unsure why you're showing this compassion considering that?
I believe that the best strat for the Keep is to collectively, meaning everyone not just the people in the keep, to chose who we think is most likely to be scum, and then give that player the choice of who they are going to vote between the other two.
So, this mini games will play out one of a few ways:
The scum is given vote power, and we always win.
I am given vote power, and I am trying to read the other two (functionally the same as being the IC in the gate)
The other townie in the keep is given vote power, and I have to town it up. I am at least somewhat confident in my ability to do that.
You being in there with me versus someone else does not drastically change any of those I don't think?I have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!
They're super opinionated and make a lot of assumptions, they're also pretty clumsy with word choice - Bell
Luke, respect for your scumgame has gone up massively - Hectic- implosion
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implosion he/himPolymath
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This kind of logic that centers oneself is, I think, not the most useful in this setup.Tanner wrote:hm. my hope was to bring two scummiest people to the keep with me. if we're right on them both being scum, scum will be forced to move one of them, which would greatly help us. of course, wifom is a thing, and this whole operation rests on the assumption that people will collectively townread me, so we'll see.
The prima facie "right thing" in this setup imo is to collectively sort all 9 players from town->scum and then put the 3 towniest, 3 middle, and 3 scummiest in the same place. If you are town and think you will be very obviously town, it's a bad idea to put yourself with two very scummy people; better to put those two scummy people with a third scummy person. This way even if we're wrong about one of those three being scum, we'd need to be wrong abouttwoof them in order to be wrong about the person that moved out of that area having to be scum. There's even the off-chance we get a day one win, though it shouldn't be counted on. If you think you will be super town, and join two scummy people, if we're wrong about just one of those two people then it's easy for scum to swap them out and muck with us.
I am quite excited to be able to actually talk about the setup productively (since the other time I played this setup I drew scum).- implosion
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implosion he/himPolymath
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This is mildly towny.In post 28, Lukewarm wrote:I don't think that people should be locking in right away
VOTE: keep
So probably don't do that lol
I'm pretty sure I talked like that as scum when I played the setup. I think this is more personality-based than alignment-based. But jumps themselves can absolutely be indicative. Actions speak louder than words in this setup.Lukewarm wrote:Scum would want to make sure they end up in different places, so "I'll go where ever is left" seems townie I think.- Lukewarm
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Lukewarm Rising Star
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I did not realize that there was another old running of this game - might look at that at some point, but that is not a thing that will happen today lolIn post 79, implosion wrote:since the other time I played this setup I drew scumI have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!
They're super opinionated and make a lot of assumptions, they're also pretty clumsy with word choice - Bell
Luke, respect for your scumgame has gone up massively - Hectic- Lukewarm
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Lukewarm Rising Star
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Oh, your dats lol.In post 54, Tanner wrote:(on that note, lukewarm, we played together in the mini normal that tris modded.)
That same game is my only experience with Ari as well.I have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!
They're super opinionated and make a lot of assumptions, they're also pretty clumsy with word choice - Bell
Luke, respect for your scumgame has gone up massively - Hectic- Tanner
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Tanner he/himMafia Scum
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@lukewarm, i'm trying to brute-force my own vote through. more specifically, my idea was me + two scummiest people. the fact that you jumped into the keep yourself meant that either you're volunteering yourself to be one of the scummy people (unlikely) or that you have no interest in me making that plan a reality. if the latter is the case, that means i have no reason to volunteer to the keep anymore because my strategy is gone. so the "tanner won't be able to go to the keep then" is completely misplaced; ialreadydon't want to go to the keep. and the fact you didn't connect that feels kiiiind of like scum more worried about keeping up appearances than a townie critically thinking about what i'm saying.
@implosion, the main point about my strategy was the fact that it would give us an easy win in one game, and allow us some breathing room to win another one more easily. i never intended to treat the swap as an investigation tool. especially not in a 3v6 game where there are a lot of people i don't have good ways of reading, i'm flat out assuming that any poe or collective readslist we come up with on day one won't be very good.your eyes on the city.- implosion
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implosion he/himPolymath
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A brief summary of the other run of this setup and lessons learned from it from a scum perspective, at the risk of muddying the waters:
1) as I said, actions speak louder than words. I saw an opportunity to justify a jump that forced all three locations to have 2 town 1 scum in that game and I took it, and I got a lot of flak for it, correctly so.
2) I still won my minigame because it was the Gate and the cleared townie was more or less too far into wifom to listen to the soft majority of the rest of the town who I think would have preferred to lim me.
3) We were set up to win the keep too, but we ultimately lost it as well as the wall because the info from me flipping and from backward speculation about what scum would have done was extremely powerful.
Basically the main thing to keep in mind is, as this game goes forward, it's more important than most setups to be willing to change your reads. If you're willing to change your reads in response to new information it makes the scumteam's livesdrasticallymore complicated.- VP Baltar
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VP Baltar he/himSurvivor
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- Aristeia
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Aristeia she/herJack of All Trades
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- imaginality
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imaginality Restricted Townie
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Hi all.
I'm slightly suspicious of Aristeia because second vote in a location is convenient for scum to ensure they're split (if the first vote is town). Making a big deal about planning to vote Tanner makes less sense from scum though as it more or less locks them into swapping one of them.
That seems like a strategy that would work for any location, not keep-specific?In post 15, Tanner wrote: hm. my hope was to bring two scummiest people to the keep with me. if we're right on them both being scum, scum will be forced to move one of them, which would greatly help us.
Not caring where you go is good but 'where I'm told to go' seems a little passive, letting others direct rather than aiming to influence the discussion. Are you typically passive as town?In post 39, Toogeloo wrote:I'll go where I'm told to go. The game looked like an interesting exercise in ways to play out MeLo. I have absolutely zero preference in where I end up.
Agreed, it seems like it would limit scum's options a lot to lock two scum in so soon.In post 43, Toogeloo wrote:I highly doubt both Luke and Ari are scum both going Keep this early. Either T/T or T/S. Two scum going to the same location right away doesn't make any sense to me.
I like this, though remember we share the same game thread so people can weigh in on the other minigames.In post 46, Lukewarm wrote:I would not be opposed to Toog coming to the keep with me an Ari. They are the only two people on this player list I have ever played with, so might help us read each other ?
I think being willing to have a player who knows you at the same location as you is towny though since they will have power to vote or not vote you.
She could use the night swap on her to appear towny in whatever minigame she's swapped into. That seems like a reasonable play as scum? And also could just be hoping Tanner doesn't actually end up in Keep anyhow.In post 59, Tanner wrote:hm. i would say aristeia is still >rand town. scum!aristeia is basically forced to either flat-out lose one minigame, or use the night swap on me. and the second might not always be possible. it feels like limiting options for scum for... zero gain.
I'm slightly suspicious of this very 'nothing' initial post.In post 64, numberQ wrote:Have I played with anyone here before? I recognize a few names but I can't remember if those were games I modded or played in. Though maybe it's a moot point since idk if I'd be able to read them well even if I did have player experience with someone here.
So all that said, I'm fine not picking where I go. I have no real preference for which location I'm in.
@numberQ, any early reads?
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Reminder to myself to figure out why post 72 seems interesting to me for some reason.
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VP Baltar, what game were we in together?
P-edit: implosion's thoughts re how we divide ourselves up make sense. We can sort of still do that even with two players committed. The problem of course is getting consensus about who is most/least town!
Would it be useful if we agreed that the remaining players go somewhere another player nominates them to go? Might help with solving the final minigames once some of the nominating players have flipped?- VP Baltar
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Good news! I never know what the fuck I'm doing and everyone looks like scum in my paranoid brain!In post 84, implosion wrote:If you're willing to change your reads in response to new information it makes the scumteam's lives drastically more complicated.YOUR AD HERE- implosion
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implosion he/himPolymath
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- Aristeia
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Aristeia she/herJack of All Trades
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Feel like we definitely played together many years ago. I couldn't tell you the game though. Definitely not saying I can read you, was just listing people I am pretty sure I've played with before.In post 87, imaginality wrote:VP Baltar, what game were we in together?YOUR AD HERE- VP Baltar
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- Tanner
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Tanner he/himMafia Scum
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sure, the "if two scum are here, they have to swap one of them" could work on any location. but my main point, again, is that keep is the only minigame where we need to find only one town to win. even if we're wrong on one of those scummy-looking people being scum, we don't have to spend energy sorting them out.In post 87, imaginality wrote:That seems like a strategy that would work for any location, not keep-specific?
[snip]
She could use the night swap on her to appear towny in whatever minigame she's swapped into. That seems like a reasonable play as scum? And also could just be hoping Tanner doesn't actually end up in Keep anyhow.
not if scum is forced to use their swap between the other two minigames.your eyes on the city.- imaginality
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imaginality Restricted Townie
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- Toogeloo
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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Do you think Luke is town?In post 86, Aristeia wrote:i like implos strategy
also if we r throwing the three scummiest into the same spot, it doesnt actually matter which spot we throw them into.- Toogeloo
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Toogeloo Jack of All Trades
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I'm not a leader, but I am impulsive.In post 87, imaginality wrote:Are you typically passive as town?- Lukewarm
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Lukewarm Rising Star
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I kinda locked into the keep before I read any of the posts made in game at that point.In post 83, Tanner wrote:@lukewarm, i'm trying to brute-force my own vote through. more specifically, my idea was me + two scummiest people. the fact that you jumped into the keep yourself meant that either you're volunteering yourself to be one of the scummy people (unlikely) or that you have no interest in me making that plan a reality. if the latter is the case, that means i have no reason to volunteer to the keep anymore because my strategy is gone. so the "tanner won't be able to go to the keep then" is completely misplaced; i already don't want to go to the keep. and the fact you didn't connect that feels kiiiind of like scum more worried about keeping up appearances than a townie critically thinking about what i'm saying.
I see your suggested plan, but I did not realize that you wanting to go to the keep was contingent on us all agreeing to go with it. I guess since the keep is my top choice, I kinda assumed you might still have it as your top choice sans-plan
If you don't want the keep anymore, then I will take back my take back in 47I have a GTKAS now! - Come ask me questions!
They're super opinionated and make a lot of assumptions, they're also pretty clumsy with word choice - Bell
Luke, respect for your scumgame has gone up massively - Hectic- implosion
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implosion he/himPolymath
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The flip side is that doing this means the remaining two locations are the ones that are harder for town to win.In post 94, Tanner wrote:
sure, the "if two scum are here, they have to swap one of them" could work on any location. but my main point, again, is that keep is the only minigame where we need to find only one town to win. even if we're wrong on one of those scummy-looking people being scum, we don't have to spend energy sorting them out.In post 87, imaginality wrote:That seems like a strategy that would work for any location, not keep-specific?
[snip]
She could use the night swap on her to appear towny in whatever minigame she's swapped into. That seems like a reasonable play as scum? And also could just be hoping Tanner doesn't actually end up in Keep anyhow.
not if scum is forced to use their swap between the other two minigames.
I think there's almost no strategies that strictly increase town's EV from a random-choices perspective. I think there's mostly just strategies that are better or worse at leveraging different kinds of correct reads.
I want to call VP and Tanner town atm. - implosion
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