In post 5653, Taly wrote:Summary:
The + system refers to how I rank the players as most effective later game AGAINST my personal read. It's how I'm quantifying the pairs by how they've interacted with the thread, what their dynamic with their partner is, and how confident I am in a read on them. Higher + players in this ranking are townreads that I feel comfortable lasting longer in this game. The clearest drawback to this is that I townread at least one person in every single pair with moderate strength. This perpetuates TvT environment which is why I suggested townhunting earlier because I don't think the most active players in disagreement are scum
{HQ, Fire, Datisi, Titus}
, and my strongest townreads have someone that is half their + value. This ranking is also relative because I don't actually start to lose confidence and townreads until the (+1)-(+5) player range, because everybody is ranked versus each other and there are only 3 scum left in this game. So my error rate with this list is 1:4 to 1:5 players (~2-3 misreads.)
~
This is partially a meta read because I've had the most extensive history with
Titus
out of everyone on this list, and she is 1 of 3 people in this game that I have actually hydra'd with. This biases me, but my read accuracy with her is strong regardless of her alignment. Even then, she has been the most communicative and guiding player in this entire game toward an IC slot. Just like with
Something_Smart
and
Alyssa
, I could quote an entire wall of posts that I feel have actively helped me that I do not detect any clear malicious intent from. I thought about doing links here but people can just ask for them...
The only point I can think of versus this slot is the idea that
LLD
could've had an ulterior motive with arranging my pair. Also because
Titus
might be taking an active approach to steer me in a certain direction, but with the context of
Nancy V Titus
, this seems to have a protown agenda even if playstyles conflict.
Oh, and unless
HQ/Titus
are S/S and this game is a nightmare - which I really think is almost never the case here,
Titus
is candidly town with her more nurturing approach to her slot. It's just... under extremely unfavorable scum conditions
Titus
can kill her partners faster than bug spray kills flies, I'm sure she's town atp. 3 T/S pairs seems more combative a gamestate to town than scum.
~
(+11.5) Alyssa the Lamb *TIE*
Another player I'm biased via history and a pretty expansive hydra past. She also has engaged a lot with an IC on a level I don't think Mafia are willing to. She's actively hurting herself as scum by positing herself as never endgame material. Like, unless
SS/Galron/Titus/StD
contain 2 of her partners to compose a team, which, fuck, I don't see
Alyssa
being scum. I honestly do not have any points to suggest she is scum. If she is scum and I'm deeply pocketed, this has been completely accidental on her end, and that contributes greatly to her + value.
Anything else I can discuss about her will best be addressed to
GL
.
~
I think the drain
Datisi
has experienced this game is to a level of townbinning. They seem genuinely frustrated and strong in their convictions and I think that's a merging tactic with their partner, which I think is very much a behavior likelier to come from town. Whether I agree with this slot's approach to the proposition of 1v1ing and my reservation with their partner is why they are not higher than
Titus
or
Alyssa
. My initial reason for being comfortable with
Dat's
pair with
GL
was that he could best tell a more controversial slot's alignment. I don't see a lot of progression with how
Datisi
has viewed
GL
throughout this game and that is something I want to hear from in a very concise post.
I think this read may come as pretty hard to hear for this slot so I sympathize.
~
I'll be truthful, I spent even more time debating
Harley/Fire/SS
+ value than I did
Titus/Alyssa
. This came down to my lack of comprehension of how and why
SS
-scum has the end-of-Predance ISO that they do. Even if I lowered
SS
, it would not change their and
Fire/Harley's
overall pair placement. Their spat with
Harley
feels town of them since he acknowledges a playstyle clash.
There's still that thought in the back of my mind that this pair being last contains scum, but I also think that's an easy narrative for scum to pivot on T/T and another reason for my reservation to push First Dance.
Also
SS
has done a lot of
"IC help"
like
Titus/Alyssa
so.
1312 3435 3440 3555 3610 3641 and more...
~
Fire doge. Memes a lot. Feels much good. So town.
That's the premise behind every game I don't want to eliminate
Fire
quickly in. I don't know if spending more time thinking on this slot is very necessary. I think they're willingness to take down their partner is a trait that town-
Fire
has expressed in previous games, and the fact that they're heeding my word before pulling any trigger is extremely protown because scum do NOT want me to give legacy thoughts even if my thoughts had a higher than normal error rate because what IS correct about my reads will be heavily factored against any mid-to-late-game narrative they want to pull.
Like, they're this low because of similar reasons
HQ
is low, thread wants them or their partner to perish and this stage is the most sound time to take this as a valid reasoning to eliminate. I think
Fire
himself should give legacy thoughts.
~
This is the soul of town!
Harley
. I just think as scum being pushed, they'd have more compromising input and emotional injection into the thread. I think they are stern in their beliefs but they don't seem informed because the reads are not a kneejerk reaction to the pressure. What keeps this slot in the midway of + value is the consistent talking about
Ydrasse
despite repeated discouragement of that, and a very incohesive disposition towards a lot of the playerlist. This isn't at all singling her out and I do enjoy playing with her, but I don't think town is likely to keep her late game even without
Shiro's
influence.
Very, very similar feelings to what I said with
Datisi
. I think their partner is very likely T/S and I've yet to see convincing evidence that points me away from this. I think their reactions to the thread have been understandable and I wish I could do more to ease this slot than just say
"this is my vote, it's not on you, sorry."
Harley
, like
Fire
, should give legacy thoughts in the unfortunate event they are eliminated.
~
I can't digress my hydra experience with this slot for oog reasons but I have seen this man on different users and I have quite a bit of recent experience that affects my perspective here.
Lots of their posts right now are just tests, this doesn't feel like baiting though, I can see the intention to solve either a partner or assess the temperature about a
Fire/Andante
elimination.
3291 5522 It's like they're taking this thread less seriously because they're confident in their reads and/or confident in the process and do not feel pressured at all. This is a very good sign for a slot that has situationally been given a lot of suspicion. I just don't think they pretend to leave their partner or even as scum trying to punk a townie in their own PT.
Ultimately, while I don't have a roadmap on their scumgame, I think they've made actions in this game that would otherwise be to their sole detriment as scum. This slot would probably be higher if I had more time to sort, I can't tailor a scum mentality here. I could towncase this tbh, and that speaks volumes for how I read players
(+7)-(+12)
. Their ISO is just a mindmeld is retrospect to me and upon looking at them more, I could just swap
S_S/Galron
spots.
~
Another player that I feel has just honestly vibed with me more than not, there is just very little that suggests their alignment either way. I think what I initially enjoyed about this slot is more so a playstyle in finding fun as often as scum because they're capable of actively quote-by-quote walling players and they've since just reinforced popular beliefs in the thread. I want to trust
Titus'
perception of this slot and out of all the pairs, I feel more comfortable with this pairing being able to discern what is scum, I just don't have as good a reason to townread this slot as I do with the majority of the playerlist.
~
I have the least defined thoughts about this slot because they are 100% inoffensive even when they're asserting a stance. This suggests scum equity if my understanding of the gamestate is correct because they do not want to be the source of attention in any form, something I think scum would thrive in if there are no S/S pairs. Conversely, their desire for townhunting may come from a newer town player who has found many conflicting narratives within the game thread and is challenged by finding the most accurate one. I also think they've demonstrated a lack of WIM through their interaction with
GL
and I also think the holiday may play a role in their complacency. This could also be a source of playstyle clashing with a partner like
Alyssa
, who seems to build unique solves constantly in a game that don't have any upfront reasoning attached.
This slot is town in some realities, but it's not apparent because they're very subtle and thus their motives can align with almost any scumteam right now. They're either hidden scum or a reason to mislim a T/T pair, and I think people focusing to pursue this right now are suspect for pushing the latter possibility.
~
I feel like I should build a whole new wall atp in the next ~12-20 hr about
GL
because this man is the densest player of them all and it's not an easy task to sort how they come to their conclusions because they seem like strong reads being asserted and yet, they constantly change. I want to say this cracks the game open like an egg, but in the lesser likely scenario this is town that's stuck in the PoE, this is anti-town reason to eliminate alone.
Probably the most difficult slot attach a + value to. Ironically, this lowers the value a lot. If there were any scum pressing an active agenda, which does not seem likely but might be, this is the only answer I'd have confidence in. Otherwise, their convictions are a bit of a rare find from scum. I do think they've tried to soothe people they have 1v1'd like
Titus
in a manner I see from scum at times. I also just feel their
Alyssa
push came out of left field.
I have to say, I need help from
GL
to understand him because I need context on his reads around
Titus/Alyssa
. Kind of biased because they told me I'm pocketed without addressing my reasons for townreading
Alyssa
. They've originally asserted that I was being pushed into scum-
LLD
agenda, and the next part is stating that I am pocketed, or addressing
Ydrasse
alongside
HQ
. I also don't think
Norwe
rejected my dance offer and just wanted to read the thread, so their push on
Norwe
felt easy for scum, but
Marci
would be an S/S interaction in this reality.... Still, this does not feel constructive from another townie, and so, scum seems a possibility here.
This + value can change a lot off of very little tbh... would be in the range of (+2)-(+7), so y'all shouldn't hold your breath. Here's my reply to them:
In post 4321, GuiltyLion wrote: In post 4316, Taly wrote:
Then tell me why. Tell me why Aly pairs with her partner or why she is scum to begin with.
well, she stalled out any possibility of pairing with catboi. if scum!Alyssa is afraid of him being good at reading her I can see why she wouldn't want to pair with him.
My counter is that by the time she wanted to have paired,
catboi
had replaced. Plus, why would scum stall in the first place if
catboi
was not an IC or a heavily suspected slot? It seemed like
Aly
used the proposals as a way to solve.
In post 4321, GuiltyLion wrote:She didn't have many options left after catboi repped out, it was either RH9, catboi replacement, or Galron
Were any of those bad options? Especially when I prompted for her to pair ASAP when
Datisi/GL
-
Shiro/HQ
-
marci/Norwe
had already paired?
In post 4321, GuiltyLion wrote:I don't think it's really correct to frame this as a conscious decision to pair with her partner, it was kinda randomly impulsively done like I said after Datisi and I paired. and I could see Alyssa being confident enough in her scum game to try to carry RH9 though endgame, it also means she doesn't have to trick any townies in a PT, that's a ton less effort
But for her to carry
RH9
to endgame is the complete opposite mentality she's mentioned by never being an endgame pair this game... Are you saying most of her posting about how we should think about pairing is conducive to scum or benefits her exclusively?
In post 4321, GuiltyLion wrote:she's scum by POE largely because I have solid townreads on all of Fire, Datisi, Titus, STD, Galron, S_S, and she started flipping out and OMGUSing once I was casing RH9 and pushing him. not hard to see it, really. she still hasn't once given a good reason to townread RH9
RH9
was not the first person I initially suspected after
Marci/Norwe's
flip, I guess this is relatively trivial, but I don't have reason to think
Alyssa
is protecting
RH9
. I can understand your scumread of
RH9
but factoring my above assessment of that slot, I can't tell if you're doing this to grow the elimination pool. I think this might be an unfair assessment from me especially if we just disagree, but while I see your POV of
Aly
-scum, there's plenty, plenty more I can bring up about a townread on them since they have used their understanding of my mind to help orient me to this game. Plus, your points other than this one are a pretty different interpretation of
Alyssa
than mine and in a game full of townreading and town shitting on each other, it's these nuances in narrative building that give me pause.
~
If there's anyone that I think has tried to speak for me this game, it is this slot earlier Pre-Dance and that impression has stuck to them
1511 and
1540, I'll also note that there wasn't an issue with my townreading of
SS
for doing the same that
Titus
did here. This slot has the lesser degree of my vex with
Shiro
, there seems to be no consistent drive to solving the game because they pop in and out with new thoughts and little follow-through with what you'd think is a free-flowing town perspective. It's like there is a rhythm to a town mindset and a lot of their posts feel to be placeholders for noise. I don't remember why they think the things they do or even their votes.
I will inquiry on this slot, does this look S/S to anyone?
In post 506, Andante wrote: In post 501, marcistar wrote: In post 497, Andante wrote:*I mean, "I don't want you to hate me" cause I'm telling Taly I didn't jump for joy when I saw Taly the IC? Taly was definitely giving off the "I want everyone to say good things about me!" vibes lol
how did he give those vibes..? i dont really see it tbh
I mean, have you read anything he has said this game? it's definitely how I interpreted a lot of it, look, I don't care to discuss my taly thoughts here, taly is literally confirmed town, I was laughing at how taly's focus has basically been "talk about me"
~
The sum of their reply to the suspicion on them has been
"why"
and I stand by my stance that they seemed to know
Marci
would flip scum instead of
Norwe
at a time that they were going to be flipped anyway. It is easier to understand this slot's perspective if it was informed. I have no metric of their meta and nobody has spoken to me directly with evidence that this is town indicative of them. If so, I have missed it.
HQ
, speak to me about this ASAP - everybody in this game should be noise to you until you do.
The Verdict-
Titus/Save the Dragons: +16.5
Alyssa the Lamb/RH9: +15.5
Something_Smart/Galron: +15
Datisi/GuiltyLion: +13
Fire/Andante: +9.5
Harley Quinn/Shiro: +8.5
Lower + pairs are ones I am more willing to eliminate at this stage, even if I confidently townread a player in them.
If
(+6)-(+12)
players identify some level of towncore, then
SS/Galron
are a solid later game pair, tbh.
I actually think
Datisi/GL
being T/T means I was or am pocketed somewhere, probably 1 person maximum in the top 3 pairings. This is a Second Dance discussion, and I don't think my input helps much more here unless I'm prodded to bring hypotheticals which I think increases WIFOM around my slot.
