Open 840 - Guardians of the Fortress [Game Over]

[VP Baltar]

I want Pavo/Tooges/

Vpb to try harder

if they are town.

I was literally still VLA at this point and was keeping the thread informed of my VLA status.


What did you think I should have been doing at that point?

[Lukewarm]

The problem with this (and I know, you prefaced it with "if DArby scum") is that Darby/I are not scum, and scum locked in the keep early. Since I know this, I go back and look at:

I do want to think about the order people went in for a bit..


Luke[K] -> Ari[K] -> VPB[G] -> Tooge[W] -> NQ[W] -> Imag[G] -> Implo[K] -> Tanner[G] -> Pavo[W]

Scum!Ari grabbing slot #2 on the keep ensures scum doesn't lose immediately on d1, and if I accept Luke's argument about quick-snagging the first slot, this could make perfect sense.

First half, I do not feel the need to respond to because obviously you have to say that from your pov you are town regardless.

I mean I guess scum locking in to a game that has a townie makes sense - but have you seen her posts about being the voter in this minigame 405 and 491/492/493

Do you think that that is just her bluffing? Even telling Tanner that she wants him to tell her who to vote? Like, that would mean that she was counting on someone else (me I guess? maybe Tanner?) stepping in to tell her that she should not be the one to vote

[Lukewarm]

Do you think that she was town read enough at the time of making those posts that she felt safe counting on that?

[Aristeia]

i think gate should resolve either second or last

if implo or lukewarm flip scum it makes it much less likely imo that imaginality is scum here

What made you say this Ari?

I definitely don't agree with resolving the keep (lowest odds of winning) earlier when the other two games clearly have better odds of town winning.

the keep has the highest odds of winning.

I said it because I don't think a scum team with Implo/Lukewarm sends Imag to 1v1 at the Gate.

[Aristeia]

Have we played together before?

no but I do extensive meta research on everyone I play with

[Aristeia]

I was literally still VLA at this point and was keeping the thread informed of my VLA status.


What did you think I should have been doing at that point?

I'm talking about in the future.

[VP Baltar]

This imaginality case is so dumb and long I am not going to quote his giant quote wall. I'll address his numbered points and why they are bad:

1. Fake confusion about mech

- Nope. I just hate mech and I don't really want to spend a bunch of time reading it, especially when I was heading into a vacation. I get shit wrong all the time.

2. He tried to rush the Gate vote today:

- Yeah, I think it's very obvious I'm town based upon the way I worked with Tanner's reads to suggest a game sort. It literally makes no sense for me to do that as scum with how it went down. I think the Gate is a very easy solve.

3. VP has backtracked on his takes under pressure:

-imaginality references the "first movers" conversation. which I did not back track on. I pointed out how implosion was incorrect, but said that I think he had a point that the very first vote is likely to come from town. This is an intentional misread of a conversation that was actually quite clear.

- the other example of "backtracking" he cites is about tanner suggesting he and I go to the same location...which is so incoherent, I don't even know what to say. I've explained my thought process very thoroughly in this thread.

4. VP wanted to get a lurker at the Gate

- this is imaginality arguing his mech talk is better than my mech talk. I don't even know what the VP!scum motivation here lol.

5. Poor excuse for lack of D1 scumhunting:

- this is pretty LOL when I was one of the few people trying to do actual scumhunting D1 and someone (I think ari) told me to knock it off because it was too helpful to scum. Like, this is imaginality's "objective" point about me. Here is a counterpoint...I did far more scumhunting D1 than imaginality. I have taken far more firm stances and done more to push the game forward toward what I see as a very pro-town direction in my sort suggestion.

Imaginality has meanwhile made time machine jokes and spewed thousands of words that lack firm conclusions on players.

6. VP omitted the IC possibility when suggesting Tanner go to the Gate early on D1:

The end of this point says "actually this one is a stretch"...but hey post it anyhow in a spoiler so it looks cool.

[Aristeia]

Luke what would you say is your best completed scum game on the site so far? I do want to read it for a comparison.

Probably this one: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=86874

That is the only scum game I have won lol

So I've skimmed this game and a few of your other games and I do feel you are closer to your town!meta than your scum!meta here;

However the example you gave me was imo a weaker performance than your scumplay in popcorn and I feel it's somewhat strange that Pavo didn't call you out for this.

I suspect it might have to do with himself playing much townier / more assertively in popcorn than this game and he felt perhaps it would not be a good example to bring up.

[Aristeia]

Personally, I think Tanner should be able to town read me easily this game

can you explain this a bit more? why should tanner be able to correctly figure out that you are town?

[VP Baltar]

ok, I got up through page 28, but that's about where today started.

So here is where I am sitting:

I think the scumteam is imaginality, Aristeia, and Toog.

Imaginality:

Posting an absolute shit ton of IIoA since the start of the game. I dare you to try and think of one original direction imaginality has moved this game. Just one. He is the unbuttered white bread of scumhunting.

This is a gem of an example:

- Gate: Well my read is obviously VP is scum. I am happy to go dig through his iso but from your POV I might be scum trying to bias your reads so I'll stick to fairly objective points. And obviously happy to answer any questions/requests.

I'm a bit surprised this game didn't get changed cos I think the choice of you as IC points to VP, so that makes me see the Darby - implosion swap as either a necessary S/T one, or as scum thinking it is a more useful swap than disrupting the Gate.

One other thought I had: if you don't have a clear view on whether the scum in our game is VP or me, it might be useful to see where VP and I differ in our reads on other games and resolve those game(s) first to help you decide between us.

- Wall: I want to re-read before commenting as I didn't have a strong read on either Toogeloo or numberQ D1. I think implosion is town because wouldn't scum implosion just stay put at Keep? So for me, the only scenario implosion is scum is if one of Luke/Ari is also scum.

- Keep: if either of Ari or Luke is scum, by play alone my hunch is still on Ari scum. If either of them is scum they likely brought in Pav mainly to swap out implosion, which implies the scum among them thinks Pav was a better choice to swap in than me/Tanner/numberQ/Toogeloo. The Luke - Pav history might be a point against Luke here?

The alternative scenario of Luke-Ari town and scum dumping the DArby/Pav slot into Keep is also very possible. Weighing against that somewhat: I don't recall anyone trying to angle against implo joining Keep? Rereading that part of the D1 discussion is high on my to do list.

The analysis of the Gate makes no sense. He is hand waving and saying Tanner IC points to me...but never gives a reason.

But the real gem here is when you read his Wall and Keep analysis. What is he really saying here? who is he saying are my scum buddies? There are no solid conclusions....just a lot of words to lull you to sleep.

Aristeia

Ari is also absolutely chock full of IIoA and mech talk. Read her ISO from today. She's not scum hunting. What she is actively doing is trying to pocket Luke. She town reads him for being "genuine and warm". She's been dodgy about reads all game, but I didn't realize she was still doing that until I read up today. She states her solve is VP-Pav-Toog. But I couldn't tell you why she thinks that because she has given no real reasons or even done scumhunting that I can tell. Her ISO is just a steam of buddying people and mech talk that is quite bad. I think I will quote some specifics on this tomorrow if I get some time.

Toogeloo

I can't remember who said it (implosion I think), but Toog's opener post struck me as weirdly put together and complete. Toog just LOLhammered me in a Xylo while barely giving me a chance to speak. They don't strike me as the contemplative type. Whoever it was said it was more likely that scum spent much of the night thinking about the game and how to open the day, as compared to town who had a long night and the holiday. I totally agree with that (admittedly biased because that fits my own town experience.)

I think these three also have interesting interactions. Ari and imaginality are kind of both poking around me and trying to suggest strats for the Keep that put Ari in a position of power.

Toog seems like a bit of a sacrificial lamb at the Wall with Ari scum reading them for unclear reasons...but with NQ posting fairly incomprehensibly, maybe they think Toog has an OK shot of coming out of that game alive?

[VP Baltar]

Personally, I think Tanner should be able to town read me easily this game

can you explain this a bit more? why should tanner be able to correctly figure out that you are town?

Tanner has played with town me a shit ton. I'm not that hard to read.

Here is my town meta: Am I doing things with pro-town motivation? If yes, I am town.

[Pavowski]

Luke what would you say is your best completed scum game on the site so far? I do want to read it for a comparison.

Probably this one: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=86874

That is the only scum game I have won lol

So I've skimmed this game and a few of your other games and I do feel you are closer to your town!meta than your scum!meta here;

However the example you gave me was imo a weaker performance than your scumplay in popcorn and I feel it's somewhat strange that Pavo didn't call you out for this.

I suspect it might have to do with himself playing much townier / more assertively in popcorn than this game and he felt perhaps it would not be a good example to bring up.

Damn, but you *have* done your homework

That pizza game is probably not good meta on me anymore, I was a fresh-as-fook newbie still and trying to figure out how I even liked to play, but I *did* feel much more burned by Luke in that game than the popcorn one.

Not saying I'm *better* now, but at least I'm comfortable in my own skin in these games now, heh.

[VP Baltar]

ok. I think I've spent like 6 hours today playing mafia. I am going to sign off now.

Tanner, I'll be around at my usual hours tomorrow. We tend to have overlap early in my day. Let's chat then.

[Pavowski]

ok, I got up through page 28, but that's about where today started.

So here is where I am sitting:

I think the scumteam is imaginality, Aristeia, and Toog.

Imaginality:

Posting an absolute shit ton of IIoA since the start of the game. I dare you to try and think of one original direction imaginality has moved this game. Just one. He is the unbuttered white bread of scumhunting.

This is a gem of an example:

- Gate: Well my read is obviously VP is scum. I am happy to go dig through his iso but from your POV I might be scum trying to bias your reads so I'll stick to fairly objective points. And obviously happy to answer any questions/requests.

I'm a bit surprised this game didn't get changed cos I think the choice of you as IC points to VP, so that makes me see the Darby - implosion swap as either a necessary S/T one, or as scum thinking it is a more useful swap than disrupting the Gate.

One other thought I had: if you don't have a clear view on whether the scum in our game is VP or me, it might be useful to see where VP and I differ in our reads on other games and resolve those game(s) first to help you decide between us.

- Wall: I want to re-read before commenting as I didn't have a strong read on either Toogeloo or numberQ D1. I think implosion is town because wouldn't scum implosion just stay put at Keep? So for me, the only scenario implosion is scum is if one of Luke/Ari is also scum.

- Keep: if either of Ari or Luke is scum, by play alone my hunch is still on Ari scum. If either of them is scum they likely brought in Pav mainly to swap out implosion, which implies the scum among them thinks Pav was a better choice to swap in than me/Tanner/numberQ/Toogeloo. The Luke - Pav history might be a point against Luke here?

The alternative scenario of Luke-Ari town and scum dumping the DArby/Pav slot into Keep is also very possible. Weighing against that somewhat: I don't recall anyone trying to angle against implo joining Keep? Rereading that part of the D1 discussion is high on my to do list.

The analysis of the Gate makes no sense. He is hand waving and saying Tanner IC points to me...but never gives a reason.

But the real gem here is when you read his Wall and Keep analysis. What is he really saying here? who is he saying are my scum buddies? There are no solid conclusions....just a lot of words to lull you to sleep.

Aristeia

Ari is also absolutely chock full of IIoA and mech talk. Read her ISO from today. She's not scum hunting. What she is actively doing is trying to pocket Luke. She town reads him for being "genuine and warm". She's been dodgy about reads all game, but I didn't realize she was still doing that until I read up today. She states her solve is VP-Pav-Toog. But I couldn't tell you why she thinks that because she has given no real reasons or even done scumhunting that I can tell. Her ISO is just a steam of buddying people and mech talk that is quite bad. I think I will quote some specifics on this tomorrow if I get some time.

Toogeloo

I can't remember who said it (implosion I think), but Toog's opener post struck me as weirdly put together and complete. Toog just LOLhammered me in a Xylo while barely giving me a chance to speak. They don't strike me as the contemplative type. Whoever it was said it was more likely that scum spent much of the night thinking about the game and how to open the day, as compared to town who had a long night and the holiday. I totally agree with that (admittedly biased because that fits my own town experience.)

I think these three also have interesting interactions. Ari and imaginality are kind of both poking around me and trying to suggest strats for the Keep that put Ari in a position of power.

Toog seems like a bit of a sacrificial lamb at the Wall with Ari scum reading them for unclear reasons...but with NQ posting fairly incomprehensibly, maybe they think Toog has an OK shot of coming out of that game alive?

If I could see my way to agreeing with you on Ari / Toog, I guess I'd be obligated to go with you on yourself, hmm? Hmm.

[VP Baltar]

Sorry, few other things from my notes I should just dump in the thread so I don't forget:

Pav, how confident are you that Luke is scum here?


Luke, can I ask why you're townreading Ari? Based off your posting, a lot of it seems to be related to Tanner interactions where you were assuming Tanner was scum. That wasn't true, obv. Are you still townreading Ari based on those old assumptions, or are there other reasons?

Last, this thought occurred to me as I was reading:

if ari is scum and luke is town, getting Tanner to join the keep early would have made scum life much easier by locking up a game with a scum almost immediately D1. It also would have set up Ari to keep trying to pocket Tanner and get a town vote given Luke was not fond of Tanner. (This might be galaxy braining too much though.)

[VP Baltar]

If I could see my way to agreeing with you on Ari / Toog, I guess I'd be obligated to go with you on yourself, hmm? Hmm.

I'm not sure it matters since it is only Tanner making the choice, but sure.

[VP Baltar]

oh VOTE: imaginality

hadn't done that yet.

[Aristeia]

Personally, I think Tanner should be able to town read me easily this game

can you explain this a bit more? why should tanner be able to correctly figure out that you are town?

Tanner has played with town me a shit ton. I'm not that hard to read.

Here is my town meta: Am I doing things with pro-town motivation? If yes, I am town.

What have you done this game with a pro-town motivation?

[Pavowski]

If I could see my way to agreeing with you on Ari / Toog, I guess I'd be obligated to go with you on yourself, hmm? Hmm.

I'm not sure it matters since it is only Tanner making the choice, but sure.

Doesn't matter maybe but wouldn't you consider it bonus points if you changed my mind?

Pav, how confident are you that Luke is scum here?

I'm fooking not =\ that's why I keep talking about my game when my efforts might be better spent on the others.

To put arbitrary numbers on it, I'd call it something like 65% Luke, 35% Ari, but the balance is shifting even in the last few hours. Before returning to the thread tonight it was more like 75/25.

[Aristeia]

Pavo, what are you doing to try to sort me?

[Pavowski]

I haven't been so much, I've been trying to figure out Luke. If I can sort him, I can sort you.

I also haven't been sure how to approach you because your playstyle is ... weird

[Pavowski]

Pavo, what are you doing to try to sort me?

Also, apropos of nothing, I just realized that your join date is my RL birthday, and that's sort of freaking me out, but that might be the space jam talking

[VP Baltar]

What have you done this game with a pro-town motivation?

I organized a badass sort. Doesn't get more obvtown than that.

[VP Baltar]

Doesn't matter maybe but wouldn't you consider it bonus points if you changed my mind?

Sure, happy to have you but I'm not certain certain you're town either so...

I do think imaginality's read on Darby looked fake af.

[Lukewarm]

Luke what would you say is your best completed scum game on the site so far? I do want to read it for a comparison.

Probably this one: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=86874

That is the only scum game I have won lol

So I've skimmed this game and a few of your other games and I do feel you are closer to your town!meta than your scum!meta here;

However the example you gave me was imo a weaker performance than your scumplay in popcorn and I feel it's somewhat strange that Pavo didn't call you out for this.

I suspect it might have to do with himself playing much townier / more assertively in popcorn than this game and he felt perhaps it would not be a good example to bring up.

Well, I mean I won the game that I linked and I lost popcorn, so that leads me to think that I was stronger in that game? I generally think of the newbie game and the popcorn as my good scum games, and DSII and that bastard one as my bad scum games.

I am really proud of the newbie one because of the way that I knew I had been guilted I went all out on setting up false associatives that day phase before the jailkeeper realized that they had a guilty on me, and then from the ghost chat I watched people walk down the exact false associatives that I purposefully put out there. It felt really good and rewarding.

Popcorn was not fun. At all. But I kept trying anyways, but I lost anyways. So both the way that game felt and its conclusion make it a game that I don't go back to when I am thinking about my prior games, but I know I did pretty good. I even have a quote pulled in my sig from it - the hectic one.

My other scum games being Pooky's Dead Silence II - I think that I did pretty badly on that one over all. I think that the set up got to me, and I over corrected in trying to not look like I was playing to the scum win con. And the bastard game, that we probably my least favorite game on site, and I even repped out, because it was a hot mess. I did not do very good that game either, but also my alignment changed multiple times (scum -> town -> scum), so :shrug:

Spoiler:

for those keeping up that gives me a 1 win 3 loss scum history

-----

Also, from Pav's pov, he town read me in the newbie game, and scum read me in the popcorn game - so the newbie game might be the one he thinks is better too, just because that is the one that I tricked him personally in.