Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[Elmo]

Day 1, Vote Count #1 - Lynching

Eldarad (2) <- Incognito, iLord
Skillet (2) <- Electra, Sthar8
Raging Rabbit <- TDC
Crazy <- Skillit
FuzzyLightning <- Jahudo

Boost Count

SpringLullaby <- Jahudo
Electra <- Eldarad

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch/boost.


Heya. You've probably caught on already, but I don't know your roles, or the setup, or anything that's not already public. If you have night actions, don't send them to me, send them to Patrick. Please note you can vote for two people to be boosted at once, but not the same person twice.

[Incognito]

Why did you immediately accept Electra's claim?

umm i was making a joke.

Mohinder Suresh is a character from the show Heroes who basically injected himself with a serum that was unsafe because he wanted a superpower so badly.

I was saying that Electra just wants to be special

Yes, I read the link that you linked to and was able to determine who the character was and what the specifics were with respect to the character. But that's precisely my point: if you're saying that you think Electra just wants to be special [by being altered in some way, (in this case through boosting)], then doesn't that imply that you believe her vanilla claim? If it was a joke like you say it was, then fine but if it wasn't, I'd like to know why you seemed to readily accept her claim.

[Skillit]

if you're saying that you think Electra just wants to be special...then doesn't that imply that you believe her vanilla claim?

The logic of my jesting @ her for being like the guy on Heroes who threw caution to the wind to get a 'boost of power' implying that i accepted her claim is pretty convoluted. But are you implying that when i said "she just wants to be special" I meant that "she just wants some kind of power" and that that statement, when coupled with her flawed assumption* (see below) that only town would have no power but could potentially get one - this would imply that my thinking that her wanting a power implied that i believed her as town?

If not then i dont understand how my joke about her being rash in her lust for power implies anything.

if so, then my response would be:
no not at all.
1) i didnt really think about it that much before i posted it, her post just seemed like motive #1 was to get that boost.
2) Scum would want to boosted as much (if not more so) as town...I don't see how reading her as just wanting to be boosted requires her to be vanilla or is any way indicative of acceptance of the claim. I see her wanting to get boosted as just wanting to get boosted.
for example:I could argue to you many reasons why you should give me some crack cocaine, but you dont have to agree with my reasons or with anything i say to just think that im just a junkie out to score myself some smack. and i simply think she just wants

some crack

to be boosted.

Having thought

further

on this i now realize that there is no reason to believe that there is an odd number of potential categories. I think Electra's basic assumption was inherently flawed in that there would likely be an even number of categories, most likely 4 (Mafia with no power but the potential to acquire one).

*Electra's assumption was that everyone fell into 1 of 3 categories. Anyone who got boosted got some kind of power, either in the form of an augmentation of an

existing

power, the

addition

of a power, or the

augmentation of a mafia

power.Electra

illogically

assumes 3 possibilities. If her theory assumes 2 sides (scum and town) and includes her 2 categories (w/ and w/o power) the obvious conclusion is 4 possibilities, not 3. Its odd (heh get it? odd?? ehh??) to me that she omitted the category of scum w/ no power but the potential to gain one as it logically and mathematically seems as self evident as the town version.

TL;DR version /conclusion

-it was just a joke, and no i never accepted her claim.
I just think she just wants to be boosted, and i now think that her 3 categories theory is fundamentally flawed in that it skips over the possibility that scum could have no power but gain one from boosts. To exclude this to me implies either
1) hasty judgment - which implies a thirst for power
2) hasty scum judgment- with implies a thirst for power and blood

[Crazy]

Hi guys.

I'd rather play normally and then find someone pro-townish to boost. I think it's likely that everyone will get at least

something

from being boosted... so I don't think boosting Electra is conceivably better than boosting anyone else at this point.

Random

Vote: fuzzylightning

[Jahudo]

I am against claiming and Electra basically stated the reasons against it. Scum will know what the boosted people can do and how best to approach them at night. I think we should go about things normally.

If someone thinks they should or should not be boosted they can say that before the lynch, but no specifics. It should be a combination of the candidate thinking they have a useful power and the group thinking they're pro-town.

[Raging Rabbit]

I think we should definitely discuss boosting as well vote, no reason whatsoever to both make the days a whole lot longer and make the discussions unconnected. I think people's opinion on who to boost can help a lot with scumhunting, especially after we'll have a confirmed scum.

Vote iLord

for trying to prevent this.

Also,

boost Electra

. Could be a scumgambit, but I think this is testable enough to make it worth our while. We're basically as unsure about her as we are about anyone at this point, and considering her claim boosting her will gain as more info.

[Raging Rabbit]

Also, I oppose massclaiming. Anyone who thinks they can break the game this easily are underestimating the mod. It'll likely just expose any power roles and not help us much.

[eldarad]

Sthar8 you should post your idea on a fake myspace and make it a blog or something obscure so we know you had the theory now when we see it later and that you are not just retroactively creating the theory. just remind us to have you link us then to the page/blog post you can make now.

Or he could just PM Patrick with his thoughts, to be published post-game.

My proposed strategy is for us to just play normally, and then choose two people to boost after we find our lynch, based on how they played during the day.

I disagree - I think by doing this we are failing to use a additional information that this boost-voting mechanism provides us.

(meh, turns out RR has stole my thunder. I'll go ahead and say it anyway)

The boosting gives us another 2 wagons per Day to analyse. These

boostwagons

, if you will, are just as good at creating links between players as regular wagons are. Trying to shut this part of the game down right off the bat doesn't sit well with me.
Having said that, my gut reaction is that this was an oversight rather than scumminess on iLord's part.

"Scum can't gambit on the first page" is exactly what makes such gambits effective.

Fair enough. But also note that I was trying to start a boostwagon too.

I get what you're saying about your role, but it just seems weird and inelegant to include vanillas that don't know their boost power, and vanillas that do.

My hunch as to how the game is setup had some overlap with how Electra described it. And, as Electra said, for a scum to make that leap of faith about the existence or otherwise of boostable vanilla townies, or whatever, is pause for thought.

I think Skillit's "only 3 categories is illogical" theory feels like reaching. Particuarly as #27 is mostly a rationalisation of his previous comments, rather than an explanation of the original rationale.

vote Skillit

[springlullaby]

Hi guys, missed the thread. Marking it by posting.

[Skillit]

how is it reaching? and what could it even be reaching

towards

? Im just pointing out that logically her theory requires a 4th category.

This might be easier to explain w/ a visual.

Electra's theory- 3 categories with 2 alignments and 2 possibilities. 2 x 2 = 3
[mrow] Ele[col]With Power[col] Without Power Town[col] X [col]X Scum[col] X

My statement - 2 alignments 2 possibilities. 2x2=4
[mrow] Skl[col]With Power[col] Without Power Town[col] X [col]X Scum[col] X[col] x

to say that there are only 3 possibilities is just illogical.

[sthar8]

Skillit, she just didn't differentiate between the two scum groups, and I can't frankly see a reason why we'd need to for any practical purpose. Whether a godfather starts off as one and gains an additional benefit from a boost or starts as a goon who becomes a godfather isn't really going to affect who we decide to boost. Electra just defined her sets a little differently than you did.

RR and eldarad-
After day1, when we have a little more background info about everybody, I'd be fine with boosting as we go. But for today, I'd like to develop a sense of who is scummy and who isn't before we boost anyone. (that's not to say we need a lynch first, though)

[iLord]

aasdfasdf

If someone thinks they should or should not be boosted they can say that before the lynch, but no specifics. It should be a combination of the candidate thinking they have a useful power and the group thinking they're pro-town.

This is a good point.

I think we should definitely discuss boosting as well vote, no reason whatsoever to both make the days a whole lot longer and make the discussions unconnected. I think people's opinion on who to boost can help a lot with scumhunting, especially after we'll have a confirmed scum.
Vote iLord for trying to prevent this.

We will - just later, after we have evidence for which to base our boast targets on. The discussions are very connected. Unless someone has a possible day power, there's no reason to boast before we have information.

Also, boost Electra. Could be a scumgambit, but I think this is testable enough to make it worth our while. We're basically as unsure about her as we are about anyone at this point, and considering her claim boosting her will gain as more info.

Testable?

Information is extremely hard to discern alignment from, if Electra tells the truth.

I disagree - I think by doing this we are failing to use a additional information that this boost-voting mechanism provides us.
(meh, turns out RR has stole my thunder. I'll go ahead and say it anyway)
The boosting gives us another 2 wagons per Day to analyse. These boostwagons, if you will, are just as good at creating links between players as regular wagons are. Trying to shut this part of the game down right off the bat doesn't sit well with me.
Having said that, my gut reaction is that this was an oversight rather than scumminess on iLord's part.

We still get boostwagons - just after we have information to base it on. Like I said, unless you suspect you will get a day ability, there's no pro-town reason to boost before information.

Scumhunting later, when I have more time.

[Raging Rabbit]

Skillit, she just didn't differentiate between the two scum groups, and I can't frankly see a reason why we'd need to for any practical purpose. Whether a godfather starts off as one and gains an additional benefit from a boost or starts as a goon who becomes a godfather isn't really going to affect who we decide to boost. Electra just defined her sets a little differently than you did.

QFT.

RR and eldarad-
After day1, when we have a little more background info about everybody, I'd be fine with boosting as we go. But for today, I'd like to develop a sense of who is scummy and who isn't before we boost anyone. (that's not to say we need a lynch first, though)

I don't see what makes boosting votes any different than lynching votes for the purpose of developing discussion and a sense of who isn't looking out for the town's best interests. By not starting with this now we're giving scum the freedom to commit themselves to less, and will have less information to go back to in the future. We're also shutting down a whole new side of discussion.

[Raging Rabbit]

Missed iLord's post for some reason.

Testable?

Information is extremely hard to discern alignment from, if Electra tells the truth.

What's more testable than information? It'll be very easy to find out if what she supplies us with is true or false as the game progresses. Definitely easier to test than the unknown effects of boosting anyone else,

We will - just later, after we have evidence for which to base our boast targets on. The discussions are very connected. Unless someone has a possible day power, there's no reason to boast before we have information.

They're connected, but there's no reason whatsoever they can't exist in parallel. In fact, they'll feed off each other. The reasons for boost voting before we have information are the exact same reasons for normal d1 voting.

[iLord]

What's more testable than information? It'll be very easy to find out if what she supplies us with is true or false as the game progresses. Definitely easier to test than the unknown effects of boosting anyone else,

We test this how? By lynching the target she gets? You want the scum to get our boost AND our lynch?

They're connected, but there's no reason whatsoever they can't exist in parallel. In fact, they'll feed off each other. The reasons for boost voting before we have information are the exact same reasons for normal d1 voting.

I suppose there's no reason we can't start boostvoting people, but we should save the actually boosting until after the lynch target is decided. That way, we have the most information for accurate boost targets.

What I'm saying is that sure, we can start discussing boost targets, but not to boost anyone until we decided who to lynch. There, we can choose the best targets.

[Raging Rabbit]

We test this how? By lynching the target she gets? You want the scum to get our boost AND our lynch?

I'm not sure the info is as accurate as an investigation result, but if she does claim to have caught scum with this, lynching him is clearly the right move. If he turns town we'll just lynch her the next day.

I suppose there's no reason we can't start boostvoting people, but we should save the actually boosting until after the lynch target is decided. That way, we have the most information for accurate boost targets.

What I'm saying is that sure, we can start discussing boost targets, but not to boost anyone until we decided who to lynch. There, we can choose the best targets.

I say we decide what first as things go along. I agree that 'speedboosting' people isn't a good idea.

[iLord]

I'm not sure the info is as accurate as an investigation result, but if she does claim to have caught scum with this, lynching him is clearly the right move. If he turns town we'll just lynch her the next day.

And if she claims to get an innocent?

[Incognito]

But are you implying that when i said "she just wants to be special" I meant that "she just wants some kind of power" and that that statement, when coupled with her flawed assumption* (see below) that only town would have no power but could potentially get one - this would imply that my thinking that her wanting a power implied that i believed her as town?

Damn, that question took a few read-throughs to understand what you were saying.

No, I thought that you believed her claim because you stated that she's Mohinder Serish from the show

Heroes

. I figured Mohinder Serish was a protagonist on the show (as opposed to an antagonist) who began with no special powers and eventually gained them over the course of a show or two or something. Therefore, I thought that by claiming that Electra is this person, this implied that you immediately believed her vanilla claim.

I kinda see what you're getting at with your "Electra's three subdivisions" thing, but I don't see it as that sinister as you're making it out to be. I would like to see her response to your accusation though.

Hi guys, missed the thread. Marking it by posting.

Hey. Any thoughts so far about anything that's happened?

[Jahudo]

to say that there are only 3 possibilities is just illogical.

At first I thought your response to Electra's setup possibilities was in joking because you talked about Mohinder and her wanting to be special. But you have a very thorough follow up so are you leaning to any serious conclusions on Electra yet? That is, do you think her claim and strategy look genuine or not? Are your feelings dependent on her only having 3 possibilities or is there something else there? Or was this part/mostly in joking?

Also it looks like everyone but fuzzylightning has posted. My random vote gains some weight, or does it?

[Skillit]

Jahudo - i had an answer all typed up but i got some kind of popup and lost everything and now in too angry to retype. >_<

the gist of it was that i was not trying to imply any kind of slant either way about E and that i was just trying to make sure that, if we were going to use her theory to frame the discussion about boosting, that it should be as accurate as possible.

[Skillit]

HOLY CRAP - how many times in life do you get back a lost paper/post? Well i will tell you. Its like NEVER. apparently i had a popup that somehow became mafiascum and just looked like i had lost my post. when i closed my browser i had a second one. woo! no work lost!

But you have a very thorough follow up so are you leaning to any serious conclusions on Electra yet?

- i am just a generally thorough person who sometimes has too much time on his hands. I just cant help myself. Ask just about anyone and they would tell you that im overly thorough, but i am working on it. (thats why i try to TLDR just about every post). I am really trying hard to be less so, and to make my posts more readable, but i am but a flawed man.

As far as the (3v4) issue- i was just trying to make sure that our framework for any discussion on boosting is as accurate as possible. I interpreted Electra as proposing her theory about the way the game was setup to help everyone better understand the

mechanics

of the setup and to generate discussion on the specific topic of boosts.. A more complete understanding of the reality of the mechanics cannot help but to be more accurate than an inaccurate one, and would assist in our individual and collective boost strategies and in the discussion of such strats..

As far as any conclusions about her - i dont really feel like the 3 vs 4 issue is really any kind of definitive tell. I made a snarky comment at the end of one of my posts, something like "how could you know this??" or something (not really worth looking up). It was obviously poorly placed and implemented, and was a gigantic distraction from my point, so i should point out that i was not trying to incriminate her or call out anything, i just tend to joke around a lot during the first few pages.

TL;DR

Version - i was just trying to make sure that, if we were going to use her model as the framework for a discussion on boosts (as Electra seemed to be hoping for) that that framework be as strong as possible.

Also

Boost: Incognito

for allowing me to indulge in more heroes chat. (really for making the effort to understand my point)

non game related section:

Incognito

- Mohinder

used

to be good see, but now he is kind of conflicted. He is not a good or bad guy really. its up in the air! atm, If he is one or the other, he is a total bad guy. not really game related though, so i now end the heroes talk. (Not

to be continued. . .

)

[TDC]

And, as Electra said, for a scum to make that leap of faith about the existence or otherwise of boostable vanilla townies, or whatever, is pause for thought.

That's a fair point.

Boost: Electra

.

I'm not sure why ILord and RR are talking about guilties and innocents, when Electra's claim clearly said she'll get "information about the town", which I'd guess would be things like "There's X scum in the town" or "there are Y vanillas". Nothing she said suggested it's a cop investigation.

Skillit's last post reads like back-pedaling from a fairly contrived attack on Electra.

unvote, vote: Skillit

And while I'm at it

Boost: eldarad

, I liked what he's said so far.

[Electra]

Sorry for posting things and disappearing, I've been overcome by midterms. Expect a post addressing everything later today or tomorrow - it's sort of nice to have a game where the first eight pages aren't 'vote: brian bc i like your avatar lololol'.

[eldarad]

We still get boostwagons - just after we have information to base it on. Like I said, unless you suspect you will get a day ability, there's no pro-town reason to boost before information.

I don't see how lynching before boosting gives us any more information - we won't learn the victim's alignment if we get a lynch majority before we've done the boosting thing. And we can't lynch Today without choosing two people to boost.
So I don't understand where you are going with this.

[sthar8]

I don't see how lynching before boosting gives us any more information - we won't learn the victim's alignment if we get a lynch majority before we've done the boosting thing. And we can't lynch Today without choosing two people to boost.
So I don't understand where you are going with this.

For one, it eliminates the chance that our best lynch turns out to be someone we've already boosted.

For another, waiting to boost until we've gotten some more information about each other will reduce the chances of us boosting scum.

We don't necessarily need to be certain of our lynch before we boost, but I think we should at least be closer, and that for today basing our boosts on our lynch wagons will be less risky than basing our lynch off our boostwagons.

I'm tempted to vote electra for her avatar, but I'd rather wait and see if we can keep the Skillit wagon going for a bit longer.